Class 158s : air con, scandalously still poor.

Justin Smith · 18 Jul 2013

I was travelling from Colwyn Bay to Sheffield today. Hot ? It was roasting. The first of two trains I could catch turned up, an Arriva Wales 158, I got on it and thought I can't cope with this, the air con wasn't working and it was sweltering. So I got back off to await the following service. Guess what ? Yes you've got it, another C158 with no air con.... I was on that sweat box for two bleedin' hours and it was horrendous, so bad that many passengers were fanning themselves to try and keep cooler.
This begs 3 questions :

1 Why, after all these years is the air con on C158s so useless ?

2 Why can't they just replace the air con system ? EMT C158s seem to have reasonable air con (rather than Arriva Wales spending all that dosh on new seating I'd rather have air con which works.....).

3 If they can't get the air con working why can't they make more of the windows "openers" (because only 4 actually open at present) ?

RailUK Forums

Drimnagh Road · 18 Jul 2013

Agree with you totally, I was on 158822 back in June and it was atrocious. The guard resorted to opening the windows, for all the difference it made.

One of the reasons why I try to plan any trips that involve ATW along the NW Coast around the 175 diagrams.

D365 · 18 Jul 2013

Yes, I hear these ATW (and other) units retain the original air-con which is designed for use of CFC gas. Since we can't use that now... As you say, EMT and others have taken the liberty of refitting with a modern system.

YorkshireBear · 19 Jul 2013

MY Northern 158 has the best train air con i had ever experienced yesterday.

TEW · 19 Jul 2013

The older system can work, it's about maintaining it properly. FGW made a real effort a couple of years ago to get all the maintenance in line and even the units with the older air-con system now work reasonably well. That said the Liebherr system as fitted to some units, including the SWT fleet, is generally more reliable.

edwin_m · 19 Jul 2013

EMT aren't perfect by any means. Each of my four Nottingham-Manchester journeys since the start of the heatwave has had either one or two cars out of four with aircon either not working or not working well enough to be noticeable. Nevertheless this is an improvement on the Central days - had I been on the forum at the time I think having one of their 158 aircons actually working in this weather would have been an event worth posting!

LNW-GW Joint · 19 Jul 2013

Drimnagh Road said:
Agree with you totally, I was on 158822 back in June and it was atrocious. The guard resorted to opening the windows, for all the difference it made.
One of the reasons why I try to plan any trips that involve ATW along the NW Coast around the 175 diagrams.

An ATW 158 in this weather is worse than a non-aircon 150 where at least there is some air flow.
It's also a relief to get into the Merseyrail tunnels.
For Voyager-haters they are nice and cool

Justin Smith · 19 Jul 2013

Drimnagh Road said:
Agree with you totally, I was on 158822 back in June and it was atrocious. The guard resorted to opening the windows, for all the difference it made.

One of the reasons why I try to plan any trips that involve ATW along the NW Coast around the 175 diagrams.

Funnily enough I was actually going to get on the 16.33 to Chester (it`d overtaken the delayed 16.21 at Llandudno), but got straight back off it when I experienced the heat inside it. I hoped the 16.21 would be a class 175 (not only would the air con likely to be working but the 175s must be the most comfortable and most refined DMUs ever to run on the British system). However, a class 158 turned up, the guard said that a class 175 was diagrammed but had been taken off because of a suicide or something.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

LNW-GW Joint said:
An ATW 158 in this weather is worse than a non-aircon 150 where at least there is some air flow.
It's also a relief to get into the Merseyrail tunnels.
For Voyager-haters they are nice and cool

As I said earlier I wonder why (if they can`t fix the air con) they don`t double the number of opening windows in class158s, four is completely inadequate.

Haydn1971 · 19 Jul 2013

I've found a workaround for poor air con on my usual Northern 150/153/158 serviced route between Meadowhall and Leeds - it's called East Coast and Transpennine via Doncaster

WillPS · 19 Jul 2013

Justin Smith said:
As I said earlier I wonder why (if they can't fix the air con) they don't double the number of opening windows in class158s, four is completely inadequate.

They can fix the air con.

Justin Smith · 19 Jul 2013

WillPS said:
They can fix the air con.

So why, in 23 years. have they not done so.......

headshot119 · 19 Jul 2013

Justin Smith said:
Funnily enough I was actually going to get on the 16.33 to Chester (it'd overtaken the delayed 16.21 at Llandudno), but got straight back off it when I experienced the heat inside it. I hoped the 16.21 would be a class 175 (not only would the air con likely to be working but the 175s must be the most comfortable and most refined DMUs ever to run on the British system). However, a class 158 turned up, the guard said that a class 175 was diagrammed but had been taken off because of a suicide or something.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I said earlier I wonder why (if they can't fix the air con) they don't double the number of opening windows in class158s, four is completely inadequate.

I feel you are exaggerating in regards to the temperature inside ATWs 158s I commute five days a week, and of the twenty separate trips I make, between eight and ten are on an ATW 158.

I have never felt the need to get off because of the heat, and find the draught through the hopper windows (all of which have been open on all the 158s I've travelled on in the last fortnight) is adequate.

It would be nice if the A/C worked as well as the 175s, but I can certainly think of worse trains in this heat.

Justin Smith · 19 Jul 2013

headshot119 said:
I feel you are exaggerating in regards to the temperature inside ATWs 158s I commute five days a week, and of the twenty separate trips I make, between eight and ten are on an ATW 158.

I have never felt the need to get off because of the heat, and find the draught through the hopper windows (all of which have been open on all the 158s I've travelled on in the last fortnight) is adequate.

It would be nice if the A/C worked as well as the 175s, but I can certainly think of worse trains in this heat.

I am most certainly not exaggerating. It was 27 degrees in the shade yesterday and a coach with windows acts like a greenhouse. As I said earlier I was using a map as a fan to try and cool down and at least three other people were also using fans of various descriptions as well. It was so stifling in the end I actually stood up the last 20 minutes so as to be right in the path of what draught came from the hopper windows. If I'd stood up and said "headshot reckons this isn't that hot, the ventilation is adequate" I don't reckon many of muy fellow passengers would agree with you, to put it mildly......
There's no excuse for this appalling state of affairs which has gone on for 23 years since the things were introduced and it annoys me to hear you say such things because the TOCs will pounce on that to continue to do sod all about it. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some law against animals being transported in that temperature, but not, apparently, for humans. Not that I'd want one anyway because the TOCs would just use that as an excuse to cancel the service and leave people even more in the s**t.

SWT_USER · 19 Jul 2013

Replace 158 with 166 and its the same story. I've had only one with working air con in 3 weeks of commuting

90019 · 19 Jul 2013

Justin Smith said:
I wouldn't be surprised if there's some law against animals being transported in that temperature, but not, apparently, for humans.

Just 13 posts before Ginger's Law is invoked.

ChristopherJ · 19 Jul 2013

SWT_USER said:
Replace 158 with 166 and its the same story. I've had only one with working air con in 3 weeks of commuting

Yesterday peak PM, 321 EMU arrives at Liverpool Street, having come ECS from Orient Way CS - no air con installed on these units (yet) - pressure ventilation and hopper windows were ineffective to deter the heat because the train had been stabled all day with no movement for a few hours since the morning peak.

Driver releases the doors, me and other pax. press the door open buttons and wallop: it was like opening an oven that had been forgotten on Gas Mark 9.

hock:

Quite a few pax. avoided the train, prefering to go in search and wait of a 360 with air con.

Eversholt Rail, ROSCO of the 321s, get a bloody move on with that super-duper 321 refurb!!!

table38 · 19 Jul 2013

Just take all the windows out on hot days. Oh, and the seats too

(New Zealand TranzAlpine open-air viewing platform. "Children must be accompanied")

simonmpoulton · 19 Jul 2013

Maybe if everyone complained to ATW directly about them wasting £m's on the refurb and not fixing the air con something might actually be done about it. Might also be an idea to write to the WAG about it to since they paid for the refurbishment.

Of course if we all sit back and say nothing then the situation will only continue as it is.

scotraildriver · 19 Jul 2013

Scotrails 158 are suffering terribly this year. Drove 6 different sets yesterday - 1 cool coach. The saloon temperature on the micropac was reading over 36 degrees and 1 of them said "feverish!" I don't know whats happened to them this year but its very poor indeed.

cjmillsnun · 19 Jul 2013

Justin Smith said:
So why, in 23 years. have they not done so.......

23 years? Has R12 been banned that long?

Modern air con systems don't use R12 refrigerant. They use R134a.

Unfortunately most BR era stock uses R12 which is now banned. Originally on R12 the air con in Mk3 based units (including cl 158) worked just fine. But R134A is different and works at a higher pressure to R12. Something those original a/c units are not designed to cope with. This can trip their trinary switches with an overpressure and cut the air con.

scotraildriver · 19 Jul 2013

All Scotrails units have been upgraded to the Leibherr R134a system but they still don't work. In fact the ex alphaline units 158867-871 were only upgraded in the past year but not one of them is operational.

samuelmorris · 19 Jul 2013

table38 said:
Just take all the windows out on hot days. Oh, and the seats too

(New Zealand TranzAlpine open-air viewing platform. "Children must be accompanied")

At 100mph, with that little distance between each train?

If only, eh?

455driver · 20 Jul 2013

I have noticed quite a few SWT 158/159 coaches with all the windows open lately.

ryan125hst · 20 Jul 2013

cjmillsnun said:
23 years? Has R12 been banned that long?

Modern air con systems don't use R12 refrigerant. They use R134a.

Unfortunately most BR era stock uses R12 which is now banned. Originally on R12 the air con in Mk3 based units (including cl 158) worked just fine. But R134A is different and works at a higher pressure to R12. Something those original a/c units are not designed to cope with. This can trip their trinary switches with an overpressure and cut the air con.

So did HST coaches also use R12 in their air conditioning systems originally?

TEW · 21 Jul 2013

455driver said:
I have noticed quite a few SWT 158/159 coaches with all the windows open lately.

In this weather even the Liebherr system tends to be a bit unreliable.

455driver · 21 Jul 2013

TEW said:
In this weather even the Liebherr system tends to be a bit unreliable.

I agree.

Strangely the Desiro AC seems to be holding up quite nicely for a change, but then the conditions would be horrendous inside the coaches if it didnt.

Drsatan · 21 Jul 2013

I have noticed that the air conditioning on FGW's 158s has also been unreliable in this weather. I think most of FGW's fleet of 158s have the Liebherr system fitted, but even that hasn't been able to cope with the heat.

dk1 · 21 Jul 2013

East Coast Tram & EM 158 on Leeds-Norwich journey today where cooling nicely. No complaints.

Muzer · 22 Jul 2013

Yep, I've been on a few SWT Desiros in the past few days, I think I possibly had one with a suboptimal (but still clearly working) air con, nothing broken completely (it was hotter in the carriage than in others, but not as hot as I'd expect it would be if the air con were completely off/broken).

boing_uk · 24 Jul 2013

As there is a decent description elsewhere on this forum of the intricacies of the Cl.158 air con systems, is it not a case of the shutdown procedures not being followed rather than any fault with the actual a/c hardware itself?

Perhaps there is a case for a modification to the controls for the a/c so that incorrect shutdown does not damage the systems?

Class 158s : air con, scandalously still poor.

Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member