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321448 demonstrator

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jon0844

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I happen to think that the refreshed 321s that Ginger seems so keen to slag off are great. The trains look pretty spotless inside, and any seats coming off are only doing so because of passengers. In fact, who's to say that Ginger isn't knocking seat bases and backs off to take photos?

Most passengers don't hunt around on the floor looking for scuffs and dust, and the interior of the refreshed 321 (and that's before seeing one of these demonstrators) is cleaner than an ageing 360 or the newer 379s.

Of course, in this hot weather, the air con of those would make me travel on them whatever the condition over a 321 - but GA has the fleet that comes with the franchise.
 
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samuelmorris

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I always found the 321 seats a little too deep and relaxed. On a train journey I normally prefer to be sitting a little more upright, albeit perhaps not quite as upright as a tip-up disabled area seat :)

Where I have the option I will always wait for an air-conditioned S stock train on the surface lines of the underground, because the older C-stock units are really uncomfortable in hot weather. On the NR side though, it's not like you really have a choice most of the time - as said, unless travelling to Chelmsford or beyond, it's 321s only in peak hours. I don't find the seats in 360s uncomfortable as such, but they are getting pretty threadbare, and in fairness I think they should be re-upholstered by now. I hate to keep going back to the same comparison but since I do use both lines regularly, the seats in 357s (which are slightly older units) are in much better condition, even if the plastic section at the top (where a seat number would be if they used them) is coming adrift on some seats, and I also find that design more comfortable than the design used on Desiros, or at least I would if they were 2+2. They do seem particularly narrow in 2+3 format.
Have these been redone since the units were new? I assume they must have, otherwise they've lasted far better than the seat covers on the 360s.
 

TheEdge

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but the fact that several operators (c2c, LO, SWT, and I think LM although I never use the latter so don't have much personal experience there) run very clean fleets shows it can be done.

But of those operators only SWT has a fleet of a similar size to GA. (These are from wiki figures). c2c has 74 units, LO has 65 and LM 162.

The GA fleet is 296 and SWT is 340. Now obviously there could be all sorts of reasons. Obvious one is the SWT livery is a darker livery so maybe doesn't show the dirt as much. Also possibly overnight stabling, if a larger part of the SWT fleet is stabled overnight in depots than the GA one there is a chance they may be externally cleaned more often (I hasten to say that is guesswork, I don't know the reality of that one)
 

jon0844

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It could well be that GA doesn't have enough facilities to keep washing trains, but I am sure there are some people who would argue that a dirty train (externally at least) isn't the biggest problem in the world.

A different colour scheme would almost certainly hide some of the effects of the dirt too.
 

badassunicorn

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From what I have gathered, there simply aren't enough spare units floating about to take 1 or 2 out of service for a day or whatever in order to wash the outside down. But they are doing their best wherever possible in between exams, maintenance and other issues.
 

306024

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There are teams of cleaners working round the clock now hand scrubbing the exterior of all the trains, they are aiming to do at least 2 units a day, think they have started by doing all the 317's. It looks like awful work in this heat wearing a protective suit and mask actually scrubbing at the side of the train with what look like brillo pads on sticks. The trains do look a lot smarter afterwards though!

At the risk of staying off topic, to be honest this is the only way to clean these units now. Well done to all those putting in the hard work. I must admit it is a mystery how the brown patches have appeared, the trains are not uniformally dirty, just in patches. With regard to automatic washers Ilford and Orient Way are new, but the ones at Southend, Colchester and Clacton may well need some refurbishment.

The Class 379's are a bigger mystery, as they all spend the night stabled where there is a washer. And despite the Orient Way washer being new, the trains that pass through on their way to Liverpool St for the evening peak are all wet, but that's about it.

As for the whole GA fleet looking like this refurbed 321 448, I guess each bidder for the next franchise (the 4th since privatisation) will pick what they want to do, and the DfT will determine the best bid. Meanwhile nothing much happens until all the paper work is shuffled.
 

starrymarkb

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Your supposedly fantastic new trains like the 360's and 379's are some of the most unreliable trains in the network!!

Interesting because the Desiros with SWT are one of the most reliable fleets in the UK!

So what is different about the GA ones...
 

306024

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Interesting if true. I'm not aware of any 'miles per casualty' statistics that back this up, last time I looked 360s were in fact very reliable, and my daily travelling on them would back this up too.

I do agree though that simple is best, the more complicated the kit, the more there is to go wrong.
 
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samuelmorris

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It could well be that GA doesn't have enough facilities to keep washing trains, but I am sure there are some people who would argue that a dirty train (externally at least) isn't the biggest problem in the world.
It isn't, but there's a difference between a train that isn't spotlessly clean and one that is pretty embarrassingly dirty. The condition of the unit on the inside, reliability/frequency of service etc. is far more important, but it's a matter of principle. If I'm going to pay 307% the fare to travel 125% of the distance (Stratford-Shenfield vs. Limehouse-Upminster on Oyster PAYG single), I'd expect a fairly professional looking service. As said, the 321s aren't as bad, but even they are far from clean.

On the SWT debate, it's not the colour scheme - they're all comparatively spotless, even on the mostly plain white livery of the 444s, and further they're also always spotless on the inside, even the old 455s.

WRT reliability, from memory the 360s across the various fleets score highly now, just not when they were first introduced, which has been true of most EMU classes, even back in the BREL days - I'm told the 321s were troublesome at first launch. There's a commonly held opinion that all newer units are generally unreliable, the 'new trains being returned for modifications due to defect' press articles don't help matters, but statistically, after the first couple of years I don't think that's often true, except perhaps in the case of the Junipers, and even they seem to be doing reasonably well now?

That aside, more on topic, the issues raised with the traction package on the 321s at present I can relate to, the anti-slip is particularly tedious in wet weather, such that from Stratford it can take as far as Seven Kings to reach 80mph - that's what, about 4 miles? Any EMU is going to suffer on wet rails, especially one with only 4 powered axles per 4-car set, but modern units seem to recover faster (I've also heard a 321 anti-slip fail to respond quickly enough on one or two occasions and thus heard the traction motors achieve what must be a speed in excess of the 100mph maximum - they've never reached that pitch in service, that can't help reliability either).

From a personal perspective out of pure coincidence I've experienced one failure each of the 315s, 321s and 360s. The 315 was failed on departure at Shenfield heading back to Brentwood (no reason stated, but they did lower the pantograph in the platform which seemed unusual). The 321 was also declared a failure at SNF but heading towards Braintree (again, no reason specified). The 360 was heading towards London somewhere around Great Bentley/Weeley, and one of the door sounders never stopped after the door closed, and presumably didn't report its closure - a staff member appeared shortly afterwards and locked it out of use - they then told us the unit would be terminating at Colchester to go into the depot - seems a bit excessive for having one door out of use on a Sunday, but there you go!

This comes after having used the GE franchise casually perhaps on average a dozen times a year each way for a bit over 10 years, then every day in one direction only for 2 years (school run Chelmsford-Brentwood), sparsely for 5 years (away in York, but for the city's university, not its railway heritage :D ), and for a period when I worked near Liverpool Street, every day both ways for about 6 months, since then perhaps once a week in one direction only on average, as I primarily use c2c to Upminster for the punctuality, reduced price (£2.70 each way from Bermondsey at peak time for a 20 mile near-central london commute is a bargain tbh), somewhat reduced overcrowding and more comfortable (e.g. air conditioned) rolling stock.
Over all that time I must have covered, hazarding a complete guess maybe 20,000 miles on the route, so to experience three unit failures? not sure how that works out statistically.
Been using c2c daily for about 15 months thus far and not been on a failed unit yet, been disrupted by one once or twice in that time, and I must have racked up about 10,000 miles on that line so far.
 
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Dave1987

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It isn't, but there's a difference between a train that isn't spotlessly clean and one that is pretty embarrassingly dirty. The condition of the unit on the inside, reliability/frequency of service etc. is far more important, but it's a matter of principle. If I'm going to pay 307% the fare to travel 125% of the distance (Stratford-Shenfield vs. Limehouse-Upminster on Oyster PAYG single), I'd expect a fairly professional looking service. As said, the 321s aren't as bad, but even they are far from clean.

On the SWT debate, it's not the colour scheme - they're all comparatively spotless, even on the mostly plain white livery of the 444s, and further they're also always spotless on the inside, even the old 455s.

WRT reliability, from memory the 360s across the various fleets score highly now, just not when they were first introduced, which has been true of most EMU classes, even back in the BREL days - I'm told the 321s were troublesome at first launch. There's a commonly held opinion that all newer units are generally unreliable, the 'new trains being returned for modifications due to defect' press articles don't help matters, but statistically, after the first couple of years I don't think that's often true, except perhaps in the case of the Junipers, and even they seem to be doing reasonably well now?

That aside, more on topic, the issues raised with the traction package on the 321s at present I can relate to, the anti-slip is particularly tedious in wet weather, such that from Stratford it can take as far as Seven Kings to reach 80mph - that's what, about 4 miles? Any EMU is going to suffer on wet rails, especially one with only 4 powered axles per 4-car set, but modern units seem to recover faster (I've also heard a 321 anti-slip fail to respond quickly enough on one or two occasions and thus heard the traction motors achieve what must be a speed in excess of the 100mph maximum - they've never reached that pitch in service, that can't help reliability either).

From a personal perspective out of pure coincidence I've experienced one failure each of the 315s, 321s and 360s. The 315 was failed on departure at Shenfield heading back to Brentwood (no reason stated, but they did lower the pantograph in the platform which seemed unusual). The 321 was also declared a failure at SNF but heading towards Braintree (again, no reason specified). The 360 was heading towards London somewhere around Great Bentley/Weeley, and one of the door sounders never stopped after the door closed, and presumably didn't report its closure - a staff member appeared shortly afterwards and locked it out of use - they then told us the unit would be terminating at Colchester to go into the depot - seems a bit excessive for having one door out of use on a Sunday, but there you go!

This comes after having used the GE franchise casually perhaps on average a dozen times a year each way for a bit over 10 years, then every day in one direction only for 2 years (school run Chelmsford-Brentwood), sparsely for 5 years (away in York, but for the city's university, not its railway heritage :D ), and for a period when I worked near Liverpool Street, every day both ways for about 6 months, since then perhaps once a week in one direction only on average, as I primarily use c2c to Upminster for the punctuality, reduced price (£2.70 each way from Bermondsey at peak time for a 20 mile near-central london commute is a bargain tbh), somewhat reduced overcrowding and more comfortable (e.g. air conditioned) rolling stock.
Over all that time I must have covered, hazarding a complete guess maybe 20,000 miles on the route, so to experience three unit failures? not sure how that works out statistically.
Been using c2c daily for about 15 months thus far and not been on a failed unit yet, been disrupted by one once or twice in that time, and I must have racked up about 10,000 miles on that line so far.

If the door behind the driving cab is isolated the unit has to be declared a failure, I won't go into the reasons why, there are various reasons why an isolated door means the unit comes out of service at the nearest convenient point. When you consider how many 321's we have compared to 360's I would say 360's are more unrealisable than 321's but having said that the 360's get used virtually day in day out mainly due to the fact they are DDA compliant.
 

Wivenswold

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Having watched the debate, but not an expert on the workings of the railway and being a commuter who pays £4.6k per year, I thought it was time to add my own comments on GA.

It's clear to me and a lot of commuters that GA have made some improvements and compare very favourably with NX. Which considering the former's limited contract, is amazing.

Regardless of the external condition of the trains, inside they are vastly improved. I travel on 360's and 321's. Both frequently have deep-cleaned seats and the awful litter problems found in NX days seems to be miles better. Toilets are less frequently out of order and I like the interim refurb on the 321 units.

The twitter page is a revelation, no more feeling like you're out on a limb. Staff are happier and more customer-focused.

Reliability and short form trains are not as prevalent (for me at least). NR have done some good work on the former and it shows.


It's not perfect. I would love more air-conditioned trains and the Webtac refurb shows that it's on the agenda. Liverpool Street station is still hell on earth, stinking of p*ss in places and often confused information. But these are doable improvements.

Oh and the seats. I never struggle to nod off on a 321. It can't be a bad thing.

Can't wait to travel on 321 448.
 

samuelmorris

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Peak time punctuality is I think still rather unimpressive under GA, but of course I realise this is primarily due to the way the GEML operates, and not due to any particular franchise operator. Actual 'on time' performance is pretty good, but I would say it's almost an accepted standard that in peak hours most mainline services will be 2-3 mins behind schedule, which will make for poor 'RT' figures.

On this note, what exactly do they class as a success or failure when measuring 'on time' or RT performance? e.g. if a train departs on time, becomes late enough to be considered 'late' in the middle, but makes the time up before reaching its final destination, does it count as a late running train in the stats? I'm assuming if it's late on initial departure or final arrival it counts, but wasn't sure about intermediate stations.

On the whole I don't dislike Liverpool Street station, the concourse is large and reasonably spacious and the retail availability there is great, but I do agree, platform 18 has not stopped smelling of urine for several years. I don't miss that smell every day!
 

Goldfish62

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On the SWT debate, it's not the colour scheme - they're all comparatively spotless, even on the mostly plain white livery of the 444s, and further they're also always spotless on the inside, even the old 455s.

In my (daily) experience the cleanliness of SWT interiors (as opposed to exteriors) is extremely poor - one the worst TOCs. It's particularly bad on 458s (and is deteriorating on 455s), where the flooring was replaced a couple of years ago, bit clearly haven't been cleaned since. SWT toilets are also noticeably dirtier than, say, Southern.

I also don't agree that SWT exteriors are spotless. 444s and, oddly, 450/5s, have a distinctly brown tinge these days. In direct contrast to their interiors, though, the 455s and 458s are usually spotless outside.

Here's typical 488 interior (and not the worst example by any means):
 

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jon0844

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That doesn't look to bad to me in the photos (I accept it might be worse in reality). Yes, the floor looks a little dirty - but in the winter, it can often look like that with the salt people step in along the platform - and in the summer, it's just very dry and may contain dry mud, dust and sand from where people have been out walking.

Carpet can hide a lot of this, but of course that doesn't mean the floor is a lot cleaner!

The heater vents need cleaning from time to time (they look rather dirty), but like the rest of the floor area, there's no need to really come into contact with it using anything other than shoes.

A clean seat is more important, and if these are muddy and dusty then it's presumably down to other inconsiderate passengers. On any given day when I walk through a train, I'll see at least 10% of people with their feet up on seats - and at night it can be as much as 25-50%.

There's no excuse for worn out seat coverings, as you see on some stock (GA 360s for one) but dirty seat edges are pretty inevitable.
 

Monty

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The 458s are starting to look a bit tired and are in need of an internal refurbishment. While I enjoy working them as a guard I have less than a complimentary attitude towards them as a passenger. I've found the passenger saloons to rather cramped, claustraphobic and dark compared to a 450. I'm hoping the reason they have held off a deep cleaning program is because of the impending rebuild program, it's had to believe 8001/8002 are nearly 16 years old.
 
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Goldfish62

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The 458s are starting to look a bit tired and are in need of an internal refurbishment. While I enjoy working them as a guard I have less than a complimentary attitude towards them as a passenger. I've found the passenger saloons to rather cramped, claustraphobic and dark compared to a 450. I'm hoping the reason they have held off a deep cleaning program is because of the impending rebuild program, it's had to believe 8001/8002 are nearly 16 years old.

Remember that the flooring and seat covers were replaced in the last 1-2 years, not that you'd notice. The problem with the floors is that is the bright blue (and bright red in the vestibules) seem to have been designed to show up every last bit of dirt!

I notice the 458/5s being converted from 460s have got the more practical 455-style blue-grey - or at least appear to from the photos.
 

lukeobrien02

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In my (daily) experience the cleanliness of SWT interiors (as opposed to exteriors) is extremely poor - one the worst TOCs. It's particularly bad on 458s (and is deteriorating on 455s), where the flooring was replaced a couple of years ago, bit clearly haven't been cleaned since. SWT toilets are also noticeably dirtier than, say, Southern.

South West Trains interior cleanliness is extremely good in my opinion especially the toilets there one of the only TOCs where i can be confident that the toilet will be clean and useable.

Maybe at the end of a day of service the trains may start to look dirty especially on friday and saturday nights but generally by the morning they are immaculate.

I would also say that GA interior cleaning is quite good i think that the main problem with many of there trains is there showing the years of neglect. but i will agree with people on the 379s but i just think that its the livery to be honest.
 

TEW

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South West Trains interior cleanliness is extremely good in my opinion especially the toilets there one of the only TOCs where i can be confident that the toilet will be clean and useable.
Really? I normally find it's the toilets which let SWT interiors down. Towards the end of the day in particular they are often dirty or locked out of use, presumably due to running out of water.
 

Goldfish62

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South West Trains interior cleanliness is extremely good in my opinion especially the toilets there one of the only TOCs where i can be confident that the toilet will be clean and useable.

Maybe at the end of a day of service the trains may start to look dirty especially on friday and saturday nights but generally by the morning they are immaculate.

I would also say that GA interior cleaning is quite good i think that the main problem with many of there trains is there showing the years of neglect. but i will agree with people on the 379s but i just think that its the livery to be honest.

The National Passenger Survey suggests that your view of SWT internal cleanliness is in the minority. I do find their toilets quite revolting so I am genuinely surprised you find the opposite. If you recall, SWT deliberately stopped doing routine deep cleans from the start of this current franchise. An SWT employee confirmed to me that the only time SWT train interiors are deep-cleaned is at C6 repair and/or refurbishment.

I do actually think that GA internal cleaning has improved immensely, at least on the GE side, and is certainly IMO better than SWT.
 

nxea321446

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it was due to move back on 12th july but i believe its still at doncaster the static testing has probably overrun i could be wrong it might be back and ga are keeping it out of sight at the depot
 

junglejames

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They havent done the re traction on this unit yet have they? Still got the original motors?
 
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