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Railway subsidies: Worth it or not?

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yorksrob

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It benefits passengers because TOCs and Network rail are forced to do all they can to reduce delays or face financial penalties.

On the point of delay payments being given to passengers, how much delay do you think warrants compensation to passengers?

The levels laid down in the passengers charter would be a good starting point. With no mealy mouthed get out clauses.
 
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tbtc

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Refering to Delay Attribution-

No it offers naff all to the taxpayer and is just another (hidden) subsidy that the TOCs receive at Network Rails expense.

It gives people a financial incentive to sort out the root causes of delays. Without some form of Delay Attrition, what incentive would there be for the "not for profit" Network Rail to solve persistent problems? Or for TOCs to ensure that they put appropriate stock to a journey?

Yes, there are a lot of people spending a lot of time dealing with this, but with over a billion rail journeys in the UK each year, I'm sure there are bigger wastes of time.
 

transmanche

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It benefits passengers because TOCs and Network rail are forced to do all they can to reduce delays or face financial penalties.
Really? What about all the incidents that are outside the control of Network Rail (e.g. bad weather, level crossing abuse, suicides) but means that Network Rail have to 'compensate' the TOCs?

How much money would a TOC receive for a 25 minute delay? How much of that would they pass on to the passengers?

On the point of delay payments being given to passengers, how much delay do you think warrants compensation to passengers?
The same amount that warrants compensation to the TOCs. Why should the TOC benefit if the passenger doesn't?
 

Dave1987

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On the point about timetable padding if people are going to complain about small delays constantly of course TOCs are going to pad out timetables to decrease the chance of delays. That is just a bi product of TOCs running such an intensive service that passengers want otherwise passengers would get a refund every single day on their journey because the timetable would be impossible to keep to with so many trains running at the same time....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Really? What about all the incidents that are outside the control of Network Rail (e.g. bad weather, level crossing abuse, suicides) but means that Network Rail have to 'compensate' the TOCs?

How much money would a TOC receive for a 25 minute delay? How much of that would they pass on to the passengers?

The same amount that warrants compensation to the TOCs. Why should the TOC benefit if the passenger doesn't?

So every passenger receives an equal share as the TOC does from NR?
 

34D

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I'm interested by why you think that a divers salary is 'enhanced' and why it is a 'luxury'. Funnily enough I don't think that my pay is a luxury-it is a necessity and the reason I go to work every day! I don't thank my employer for their generosity in choosing to pay me and I doubt anyone else does either, in any industry!

Also, how are you going to get drivers on £9 per hour when all the others pay £25/hour? You will end up with those who can't make the cut with the more desirable operators and so increase incidents, need longer training etc as you couldn't be anywhere as selective as a company offering 45k can. Drivers take their job very seriously and take safety seriously as we know we will not get a job paying this much elsewhere. Pay them £9 an hour and you will end up with school levers who couldn't give a stuff as if they have too many incidents and get sacked they can just walk into a supermarket, employment agency, building site etc and just get another job on similar money.

There's hundreds of people on this forum alone who would kill for a job driving a train. Preserved railways with paid staff pay much less than a mainline wage.

Although you say that you arnt staff bashing you have shown that you have no idea where our salaries come from or what we are paid for/how competition works etc. and quite frankly, after reading the first sentence which describes rail workers pay as a 'luxury' it's actually impossible to take the rest of your post in any way seriously.

But nice to know that you wish we were on significantly less and don't like the fact that TUPE offers us some protection of our terms and pay! I suspect jealousy as I can't see any other reason you would be that keen on eroding our pay and conditions!

With respect, I have previously had management roles within a TOC and a FOC, so know the industry well. I am very aware that the conditions and rates of pay we have today we're achieved by good union negotiation.

What I am interested in are new projects. For example, there are 2 (at least) preserved railways where commuter services could work well.

Likewise rail reopening: something like Dunstable-Luton (silly example due to the new busway) could be a rail reopening wholly on its own alignment, thereby requiring a slimmed-down rulebook, this and a possible 40mph speed limit means the H&S risks are different and hence a 'different' person spec may be appropriate.
 
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tbtc

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I don't, no, but driving a road vehicle is much easier than driving a train. Driving a bus is very much unskilled labour. Driving a train is not.

Apart from the steering and the reacting to other drivers and dealing with members of the public and handling cash and being expected to know various ticketing ranges and... yeah, any old idiot could do it.

Yet bus drivers have benefits packages around half those of train drivers.
 

A-driver

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Apart from the steering and the reacting to other drivers and dealing with members of the public and handling cash and being expected to know various ticketing ranges and... yeah, any old idiot could do it.

Yet bus drivers have benefits packages around half those of train drivers.

And here we go again...another topic descending into bus driver vs train driver. Has this not been done to death yet?

I'm going to say this with the greatest of respect but in all honesty what business is it of any if yours what I or my colleagues earn? My company pays me, my union negotiate a wage for me with them, it's between us and nothing to do with any if you whatsoever.

I'm sick of these forums descending into 'drivers are overpaid and a monkey could do their job'. Get a life and stop sticking your noses into stuff which just dosnt concern you.
 

Goatboy

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Apart from the steering and the reacting to other drivers and dealing with members of the public and handling cash and being expected to know various ticketing ranges and... yeah, any old idiot could do it.

This isn't a bus forum so it's not relevent but pretty much that, yes. It's not a particularly difficult job and the rates of pay reflect that.

Handling cash, what like anyone on a checkout?
Steering and reacting to other drivers? Like everyone with a car?

Obviously there are unique challenges to driving a bus but they are not rocket science and are quite easily trained.

Driving a train is nothing like as straightforward as bus driving.
 
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tbtc

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And here we go again...another topic descending into bus driver vs train driver. Has this not been done to death yet?

I'm going to say this with the greatest of respect but in all honesty what business is it of any if yours what I or my colleagues earn? My company pays me, my union negotiate a wage for me with them, it's between us and nothing to do with any if you whatsoever.

I'm sick of these forums descending into 'drivers are overpaid and a monkey could do their job'. Get a life and stop sticking your noses into stuff which just dosnt concern you.

Thanks, but I was trying to defend bus drivers - I wasn't criticising rail drivers or their conditions in my post, just trying to deal with what looked like a patronising criticism of bus staff.

I didn't ask how much you earned, I didn't mention unions, I didn't say a monkey could do your job.

Thanks for the suggestion that I get a life though - I'll bear it in mind - always happy to take life advice from strangers.
 

The Ham

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Figures seem to suggest that drivers actually subsidise lots of other things but because the idea of a "road tax" disappeared decades ago it's difficult to work it out.

According to the Daily Telegraph's Honest John column motorists paid £27 billion in taxes in 2010, including road fund licence, fuel tax and VAT. In the same year the government spent £9.5 billion on road construction and maintenance.

That said I am very happy for my taxes to subsidise railways. They are more environmentally friendly and IMHO a much more civilised way to travel.

Even the most hardend car nut should want as many people to use public transport as possible. Why? As the more people that use public transport the more road space there is for them to carry on driving (and not just at a snails pace).

Therefore even if their money being paid is being used on other modes of transport it is in there best intrest, even if it doesn't appear to directly benefit them.
 

A-driver

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Thanks, but I was trying to defend bus drivers - I wasn't criticising rail drivers or their conditions in my post, just trying to deal with what looked like a patronising criticism of bus staff.

I didn't ask how much you earned, I didn't mention unions, I didn't say a monkey could do your job.

Thanks for the suggestion that I get a life though - I'll bear it in mind - always happy to take life advice from strangers.

That wasn't aimed at you, just tagged on to a post where I quoted you so apologies.

It was just a general rant aimed at those on here who have nothing better to do than stick their noses into other people's business and complain about what others get paid.
 

notadriver

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Likewise rail reopening: something like Dunstable-Luton (silly example due to the new busway) could be a rail reopening wholly on its own alignment, thereby requiring a slimmed-down rulebook, this and a possible 40mph speed limit means the H&S risks are different and hence a 'different' person spec may be appropriate.

If it were a self contained light rail system I could see your point. With one exception tram drivers get the sort of pay rates you describe and their terms and conditions are more 'bus driver like'
Their 50 mph top speed is more than enough for relatively short runs. Trams with their ability to negotiate tight bends, steep gradients and on street running are ideal for this sort of thing and could be an alternative to the bus.
 

34D

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I don't, no, but driving a road vehicle is much easier than driving a train. Driving a bus is very much unskilled labour. Driving a train is not.

What a load of tosh. I have done both, and I can honestly say that the train is easier. Less unexpected happenings.
 

flhh66555

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This isn't a bus forum so it's not relevent but pretty much that, yes. It's not a particularly difficult job and the rates of pay reflect that.

Handling cash, what like anyone on a checkout?
Steering and reacting to other drivers? Like everyone with a car?

Obviously there are unique challenges to driving a bus but they are not rocket science and are quite easily trained.

Driving a train is nothing like as straightforward as bus driving.

I am sorry but do you have a dislike for bus drivers?
this is a subject I can speak about having worked as a Bus driver for 14 years before my railway career.
Firsty there is no comparison at all. two totally different jobs.
I was interested in buses when I started in 1987. Bristol VR, Leyland Olympian, National, Atlantean, Leopard,Tiger. Semi Auto boxes that required a degree of skill to change gear with out the clunk.
Driving in heavy rush hour traffic with a large vehicle having to deal with and think for all the 'above average' car drivers out there.
being responsible for peoples safety and adhering to drink and drug policy.
Not rocket science but please not straight forward. tell us all what you do and lets have a go at that.
and personally although the unions did a lot for train drivers wages the privatised companies who paid off all the old hands to save money actually helped wage negotiation.
for the record bus driver basic salary in 1987 was more than BR driver basic (not mileage/overtime etc)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What a load of tosh. I have done both, and I can honestly say that the train is easier. Less unexpected happenings.

Agreed
 
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1e10

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There are a lot of people in the press, twitter and on here who complain about the amount of subsidies the TOC's receive. My question to people is this:

Would you rather TOCs stopped operating services that are loss making or would you rather the same level of service was kept with the TOCs getting the subsidies to run services that run at a loss?

Money invested into Rail (or any public transport system) is good since public transport is the future. More and more people are turning to public transport, there isn't enough room on the roads for everyone to be driving their own car.

And here we go again...another topic descending into bus driver vs train driver. Has this not been done to death yet?

I'm going to say this with the greatest of respect but in all honesty what business is it of any if yours what I or my colleagues earn? My company pays me, my union negotiate a wage for me with them, it's between us and nothing to do with any if you whatsoever.

I'm sick of these forums descending into 'drivers are overpaid and a monkey could do their job'. Get a life and stop sticking your noses into stuff which just dosnt concern you.

Don't get me wrong; I believe drivers deserve the pay they get. Lets remember though where your company gets it money from. People pay for rail services via fares and taxes and have a right to question drivers pay in general.

Why do people question politicians expenses? Because it's paid for by the people.
Why do people question train drivers pay? Because it's paid for by the people.
 

notadriver

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Well - you don't need to speak English to drive a bus, and you can be partially deaf as long as a hearing aid is used.
 

34D

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That wasn't aimed at you, just tagged on to a post where I quoted you so apologies.

It was just a general rant aimed at those on here who have nothing better to do than stick their noses into other people's business and complain about what others get paid.

Noone is complaining! However, yes, I believe the ridiculously high wage is stifling network development.

Let's recap. In the 1960s, train driver pay was closer to various other blue collar jobs (yes, inc the evil bus driving).

In the 1970s (the decade of the union) and 80s various things were negotiated, DOO allowances, single manning HST allowances etc etc.

In the 1990s, we suddenly had privatisation. Instead of commuter trains being lower ranks (with staff eventually promoted to the top link express trains) suddenly the guys driving class 455s around London and class 150s around Manchester find themselves employed in a separate company, and suddenly want to apply elsewhere where wages are higher.

I am very happy with the drivers of 125mph express trains having top pay, it's just that I would prefer lines A B and C to be reopened at a cheaper cost where possible.

Can you at least see my point of view, even if you don't agree with it?
 

notadriver

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Yes I do agree that someone on the Stouebridge shuttle shouldn't be on the same as a Virgin Pendolino driver. I believe the light rail self contained system is the way forward.
 

Carlisle

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Let's not forget that a good chunk of the subsidy goes on various 'luxuries'.

By this I mean things like enhanced salaries for drivers, salaries for teams that undertake things with minimal benefit (example, the teams that each operator has for delay attribution).

Due to things like TUPE we couldn't actually change any of these things, however I would like the next new line we open to be done on a 'low cost' basis, ie driver on £9 an hour, no paid breaks, no time and a half for Sundays, etc etc. Station staff could be one person staffing a combined ticket shop/newspaper stand/coffee bar.

I'm not staff-bashing here, I am just saying it would be interesting to try a low-cost venture as an experiment.
t

That happened to parts of the industry anyway shortly after privatisation, many cleaning and some catering roles were hived off to subcontractors paying minimum wage or just above with no overtime ,nightshirt sickness or travel enhancements etc
 

Dave1987

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Yes I do agree that someone on the Stouebridge shuttle shouldn't be on the same as a Virgin Pendolino driver. I believe the light rail self contained system is the way forward.

Ow come on they deserve at least £45k for driving the "ice cream van" to Stourbridge town :lol:
 

hairyhandedfool

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Apologies for going back to the start....

There are a lot of people in the press, twitter and on here who complain about the amount of subsidies the TOC's receive. My question to people is this:

Would you rather TOCs stopped operating services that are loss making or would you rather the same level of service was kept with the TOCs getting the subsidies to run services that run at a loss?

I don't have a problem with subsidies for the service, I have problems with subsidies for profit.

McDonalds has a set standard for food, uniform, branding and service quality, Subway is the same, but these are franchises, proper franchises, where the operating company (franchisee) pays the owning company (franchisor) for the privilege of using the brand. The franchisees have to abide by that standard or lose their rights to use the name.

What is to stop the government telling the railway companies the standard they have to set? Nothing.

What is to stop the Government telling the franchises they have to pay rather than receive? Nothing.

The problem is that if the railway companies are told to have a set standard and told to pay, and not receive, many will not take up the franchise, leaving the government with a set of services it doesn't want to pay for and a clear indication that franchising a public service simply doesn't work. Those that do get taken up will likely see a rise in fares 'for profit'.

A Northern Rail (NR) director recently told me that passenger fares make up an average of £3 per NR journey and that the cost of the average NR journey is £6. If true, the government is giving NR it's £40m profit each year. That is not a franchise.

Given the way these 'franchises' seem to operate, and the way Government controls them, they are little more than management contracts dressed up in wordplay.
 

A-driver

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Well if anyone honestly thinks that the pay drivers get is the problem with the railways and that we are responsible for high fares and lack of development then you have no idea what you are talking about.

If we all signed contracts to be paid 20k for a 6 day week of 14hr shifts you still wouldn't see ticket prices come down or more money spent on infrastructure. You would just see even more profits to shareholders.

You lot really do speak a load if nonsense don't you.

And as for comparing driving a road vehicle to a train yet again-they are not comparable. The only similarity is that they both move. That's it. The rest is completely different. Nothing in common whatsoever. Most of us drive both cars and trains and both have areas that make them easier and areas that make them harder but comparing the 2 is like comparing the job of a butcher and a florist.

I don't see the constant need to compare bus drivers and train drivers, completely different jobs-completely different industries, completely different day to day work, completely different background knowledge etc.

So many threads on here are turning out like this one with complete drivel being written by those who just have some axe to grind for whatever reason. My employer decides what to pay me, it has nothing whatsoever to do with you (in the same way that I shop at tesco but have no interest in what their staff are paid-I'm sure my shopping would be cheaper if they were paid half what they are but it's none if my business) whatsoever and it seems completely pointless constantly ranting on here and in the daily mail about it!
 

TheWalrus

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In the way of subsidies what needs to happen is a more efficient railway. Cutting back on poorly used services and finding more efficient, cheaper way s of providing socailly necessary services. Controversially this may include more DOO and PPMs or newer pacer-like trains to get down costs and turn loss-making services over to profit.
 

455driver

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Driving a train is nothing like as straightforward as bus driving.

And here speaks the voice of reason who has obviously done both jobs for a number of years!

Actually any monkey could drive a train but lets not confuse driving a train with train driving which are actually very different!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ow come on they deserve at least £45k for driving the "ice cream van" to Stourbridge town :lol:

Cant be bothered.
 
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cjmillsnun

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NHS costs, police costs, fire brigade, pollution, cost to economy of grid locked roads its not a black and white equation like the road lobby try's to make out.

Add to that non Highways Agency maintained roads that all the local councils maintain (paid for by council tax)
 
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