Manchester - Blackpool & Scotland TPEx Changes

Boysteve · 30 Jul 2013

The Manchester - WCML route via Chat Moss is due to be fully electrified by this December. I was wondering what changes we would see to the Manchester-Preston-Blackpool/Cumbria/Scotland services at the timetable change. Presumably Manchester Airport to Scotland services will run via Chat Moss leaving the Airport at XX00 but will there now be one every hour (so more services than now)?
If so then maybe double 185 units could then leave the airport at XX29 via Bolton before splitting every hour at Preston. One portion for Blackpool and the other for either Barrow or Windermere?
Anyone any ideas? Please can we keep posts purely concerned with how many masts are still to be installed to another more relevant thread. I am only really interested in the timetable and routing changes that are about to occur be it this December or May 2014.

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Bevan Price · 30 Jul 2013

Boysteve said:
The Manchester - WCML route via Chat Moss is due to be fully electrified by this December. I was wondering what changes we would see to the Manchester-Preston-Blackpool/Cumbria/Scotland services at the timetable change. Presumably Manchester Airport to Scotland services will run via Chat Moss leaving the Airport at XX00 but will there now be one every hour (so more services than now)?
If so then maybe double 185 units could then leave the airport at XX29 via Bolton before splitting every hour at Preston. One portion for Blackpool and the other for either Barrow or Windermere?
Anyone any ideas? Please can we keep posts purely concerned with how many masts are still to be installed to another more relevant thread. I am only really interested in the timetable and routing changes that are about to occur be it this December or May 2014.

Apart from rerouting Scotland services via Chat Moss, I doubt that there will be many timetable changes before May, or even December 2014 - because there will be insufficient 350s available by December 2013 to permit full electriication of the Scottish passenger services.

transmanche · 30 Jul 2013

Boysteve said:
I am only really interested in the timetable and routing changes that are about to occur be it this December or May 2014.

Has a draft or consultative timetable been published as yet? (I'd certainly be interested in seeing a draft timetable for the Newcastle-Liverpool service from May 2014.)

Eagle · 30 Jul 2013

transmanche said:
Has a draft or consultative timetable been published as yet? (I'd certainly be interested in seeing a draft timetable for the Newcastle-Liverpool service from May 2014.)

There was one included in TPE's application to the ORR, but I believe that it was "indicative only".

LNW-GW Joint · 31 Jul 2013

transmanche said:
Has a draft or consultative timetable been published as yet? (I'd certainly be interested in seeing a draft timetable for the Newcastle-Liverpool service from May 2014.)

I can't find the link now but this was the gist in the draft:

Lime St 1012
Victoria 1044/52
Hudd 1111/13
Leeds 1140/43
York 1205/07
Northallerton 1228
Darlington 1240
Durham 1258
Newcastle 1311

Repeats every hour 06-19
Stops at Chester-Le-Street in alternate hours.
The current Manchester Airport-Newcastle would terminate at York.
Existing Liverpool-Scarborough unchanged.
Return from Newcastle is at nn10, Liverpool arr nn07 three hours later.

No guarantee this is what the real timetable will be.

transmanche · 31 Jul 2013

LNW-GW Joint said:
I can't find the link now but this was the gist in the draft:

Cheers for the info (and to Eagle). (I find it quite hard to easily locate such info on the ORR website.)

The Manchester-Newcastle timings look good (2h20 compared to about 2h40 at present). Hopefully the final timetable will not be too different!

But being selfish, I was hoping there would be a call at Earlestown or Newton-le-Willows, in order to make an easy connection to Chester - rather than have to cross Manchester on the tram/bus.

swt_passenger · 31 Jul 2013

This is the ORR page you need, there are three timetables, Scotland, eastbound and westbound:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.210

IrishDave · 1 Aug 2013

Bevan Price said:
Apart from rerouting Scotland services via Chat Moss, I doubt that there will be many timetable changes before May, or even December 2014 - because there will be insufficient 350s available by December 2013 to permit full electriication of the Scottish passenger services.

The December timetables are up on OpenTrainTimes - I'm not sure if they're final or not, but they show all the Manchester-Scotland trains running via the Chat Moss: this is a list of all trains at Parkside Junction.

Manchester-Leeds doesn't seem to have changed at all, looking at Greenfield (between Stalybridge and Huddersfield). I assume the "fifth path" will only be used from May.

swt_passenger · 1 Aug 2013

The track access application (linked above) has always had the '5th path' starting with the May subsidiary change:

The first proposed timetable development will be phased in from the Passenger Change Date in December 2013 to the Subsidiary Change Date in May 2014, as delivery of the new EMUs into passenger service is completed, providing for an increase from 22 to 30 Manchester – Scotland services each day and allowing train lengthening, thus providing an increase of more than 80% in seating capacity on these services.

The second proposed timetable development will then be introduced on the Subsidiary Change Date in May 2014 to provide for the cascade of DMU vehicles released by the new EMU introduction to provide much needed increased capacity between key Northern cities and provide journey time improvements on the North TPE route. This proposal will significantly enhance capacity of the existing North TPE services and provide additional capacity on South TPE services, by:
• introducing a new Liverpool – Newcastle service via Manchester Victoria utilising the enhanced infrastructure capability and investments made in the Chat Moss route. Increasing the frequency of fast Liverpool – Manchester services from 3 to 4 services per hour and fast services between Manchester – Leeds from 4 to 5 trains per hour;
etc, etc...

Eagle · 1 Aug 2013

The fifth path can only be implemented once all the 350s are in place, freeing up enough 185s to do it.

For the December 2013 timetable Manchester to Scotland will still be a mixture of 350s and 185s, while the 350s are being reduced (it's also for this reason that they can't start 110 mph running until the May timetable).

YorkshireBear · 2 Aug 2013

What is replacing the scotland service on the bolton corridor? I hope it is not nothing!

WatcherZero · 2 Aug 2013

Talk of a service to Blackburn but nothing decided yet, in the short term Northern are going to try and put in some additional strengthening and keep an eye on crowding levels.

boltonwanderer · 6 Aug 2013

I have been in discussion recently with TPE and the gist of what I have been told is that
they believe the migration of passengers onto the electrified route will free up seats on the existing TPE services that will continue to Manchester through Bolton i.e BPN to MIA. At the moment, from what I can gather, and I've been given no indication to believe otherwise, is that there are no plans afoot to use the 185's on additional services through Bolton to replace the Scotland services. They do however understand the importance of the Bolton-Manchester corridor and are working closely with Northern Rail to ensure a continuity of service.

If I'm 100% honest, I'm not filled with too much confidence. The Bolton - Manc corridor is already chronically over crowded and I can only see it getting worse

Eagle · 6 Aug 2013

boltonwanderer said:
At the moment, from what I can gather, and I've been given no indication to believe otherwise, is that there are no plans afoot to use the 185's on additional services through Bolton to replace the Scotland services.

The 185s are being kept for when Manchester to Leeds goes to 5tph in May next year (by then all the 350s should have arrived to displace them).

boltonwanderer · 8 Aug 2013

It will be interesting to see how services through Bolton are affected once the Scotland services stop. So if TPE won't be replacing the Scotland services it will be down to Northern then. Are Northern due any additional stock to help supplement additional services through Bolton or will Bolton/Chorley be left high and dry?

Eagle · 8 Aug 2013

Northern will have a bit of extra stock once they get some EMUs to work the Chat Moss lines, but that's not until December 2014 at the very earliest.

Dunc108 · 8 Aug 2013

thats what i was thinking, if TPE arent filling the gap, its up to Northern with maybe a new semi-fast to Preston or Blackpool .... mind u if they diverted Blackpool South services to Manchester instead of Colne it could open up other possibilities?

Eagle · 8 Aug 2013

Dunc108 said:
thats what i was thinking, if TPE arent filling the gap, its up to Northern with maybe a new semi-fast to Preston or Blackpool .... mind u if they diverted Blackpool South services to Manchester instead of Colne it could open up other possibilities?

Yes, but then you have the problem of no service at all between Burnley and Colne.

Dunc108 · 8 Aug 2013

Eagle said:
Yes, but then you have the problem of no service at all between Burnley and Colne.

Keep existing services but terminate them at Preston?

mind i guess Northern might need more stock to make it happen & if Blackpool South's diverted to Manchester instead theyd be good being semi-fast between Preston & Salford Crescent. Maybe extending Hazel Groves to Blackpool South could be another idea? If Northern dont fill the TPE gap, the only other alternative is 4-coaching the Blackpool - Manchester Vics & Preston - Hazel Groves to provide extra capacity.

Xenophon PCDGS · 8 Aug 2013

WatcherZero said:
Talk of a service to Blackburn but nothing decided yet.

With that long single-track middle section between Bolton and Blackburn, would an extra service on this line cause any operational problems ?

snail · 8 Aug 2013

boltonwanderer said:
It will be interesting to see how services through Bolton are affected once the Scotland services stop. So if TPE won't be replacing the Scotland services it will be down to Northern then.

It should relieve pressure on Northern services from Wigan Wallgate via Bolton if people switch to the faster direct services from Wigan North Western.

Hopefully the extra capacity of the 350s will cope with the Wigan traffic better than the 185s do for Bolton.

MidnightFlyer · 8 Aug 2013

Paul Sidorczuk said:
With that long single-track middle section between Bolton and Blackburn, would an extra service on this line cause any operational problems ?

Depends what time it was. I think there is a gap on the line for quite a while between roughly 1530-1630 where an extra could fit no problem, the trouble is the path from Manchester. I suppose with a bit of rejigging from the north you could find one somewhere in the peak (or towards the back end of it 1830-1930 or so). It's interesting to see all these people campaigning to get rid of that single line between Darwen and Bromley Cross - it doesn't constrain a half-hourly service, as is proved in the peaks and until 1100 on a Saturday!

edwin_m · 8 Aug 2013

I think the last study into Bolton-Blackburn decided that another loop would be needed to make the service half-hourly in each direction - there are already peak strengtheners but they can't run one both ways in the same hour.

Northern will also have to find some units for the Todmorden Curve service, although this might also relieve pressure on Bolton-Blackburn a bit as it isn't that much slower for Manchester-Blackburn journeys. They can't even take out any peak strengthening on their Wigan services (assuming there is any!) because the TPE services won't stop at Wigan in the peak hours. With no other obvious source of DMUs the crowding situation looks like getting worse until the cascaded EMUs start arriving in serious numbers.

Darren R · 8 Aug 2013

Providing a half hourly service all day through Bolton to Blackburn wouldn't take much work. As MattE2010 says, there is a half hourly service in both directions in the peaks and most of Saturday morning. The single track section between Darwen and Bromley Cross takes 12 minutes at the moment, 4 tph through this is achievable - in fact for a while during the WCML works when Virgin diverted this way and via the S&C there were even the odd 6tph on Sundays! Where delays do occur it tends to be on the Manchester - Bolton section, but of course these can then result in chaos north of Bolton.

But that's rather more long term - are the removed FTPE trains through Bolton just to be removed from the timetable without some form of replacement? If so then come December there is gonna be a major problem with overcrowding in the peaks. It's bad enough between Manchester, Bolton and Chorley as it is - and that's before there's one less train per hour!

WatcherZero · 9 Aug 2013

Also the Bolton corridor coped well with being the diversionary route for the WCML while the route through Wigan was closed a couple of weeks ago.

boltonwanderer · 9 Aug 2013

If anything TPE should at the very least be using the freed up 185's to double up services through Bolton to Manchester at Peak times.

It won't happen though

Xenophon PCDGS · 10 Aug 2013

boltonwanderer said:
If anything TPE should at the very least be using the freed up 185's to double up services through Bolton to Manchester at Peak times.

It won't happen though

As you say, it won't happen as the said 185's have already been earmarked for strengthening duties elsewhere on other TPE routes. Personally, I would have liked to see them on fast or semi-fast Calder Valley Leeds to Manchester services.

edwin_m · 10 Aug 2013

It would be a waste of resources to send a double 185 all the way to Blackpool or Barrow simply because it is crowded between Manchester and Bolton. The most efficient way to strengthen Manchester to Bolton would probably be to put some extra services on between these points only. Capacity constraints probably make this impossible so the next best option would be to strengthen the shortest distance services that cover the busy section. This would be some of the Northern services but as we all know Northern has no hope of any more DMUs...

Dunc108 · 10 Aug 2013

edwin_m said:
It would be a waste of resources to send a double 185 all the way to Blackpool or Barrow simply because it is crowded between Manchester and Bolton. The most efficient way to strengthen Manchester to Bolton would probably be to put some extra services on between these points only. Capacity constraints probably make this impossible so the next best option would be to strengthen the shortest distance services that cover the busy section. This would be some of the Northern services but as we all know Northern has no hope of any more DMUs...

... and usually if Northern strengthens at the moment, you can almost guarantee theres a 142 somewhere in the mix!

Xenophon PCDGS · 10 Aug 2013

edwin_m said:
The most efficient way to strengthen Manchester to Bolton would probably be to put some extra services on between these points only.

Would you use the Manchester-facing bay platform at Bolton for such services ?

Manchester - Blackpool & Scotland TPEx Changes

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