Phillipimo
Member
At my local station Fareham the ticket barriers are rarely in use, it seems a waste of money to buy them but hardly use them, surely people will learn to travel when they're not in operation if they don't want to pay.
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Ticket Barriers
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SS4
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Yup, doesn't surprise me. I'm guessing the times they are in operation is easily worked out instead of being at random
Probably have to be open because of staffing reasons (ie there aren't enough). The solution to this depends on your political bent (either ensure more staff are there vs loosen the regulations)
Probably have to be open because of staffing reasons (ie there aren't enough). The solution to this depends on your political bent (either ensure more staff are there vs loosen the regulations)
lukeobrien02
Member
same with my station Eltham the barriers are always not in use at the same time each day and the station building with the barriers are locked after 7pm on most days. Also even when there is sufficient staff members the gates are generally open only during the morning rush hour they are closed. i see ticket barriers as a visible reminder to passengers about tickets especially in london with the oyster card system. if there are no barriers i can occasionally forget to touch out and have to go back. I also see the issue with the volume of tickets being rejected at the barriers eg Child, season and railcard tickets
i was recently in switzerland and observed that none of the railway stations have ticket barriers i guess they rely on the morality of passengers to buy tickets. i also think that it speeds up passenger flow allowing a smooth passage through the station
i was recently in switzerland and observed that none of the railway stations have ticket barriers i guess they rely on the morality of passengers to buy tickets. i also think that it speeds up passenger flow allowing a smooth passage through the station
Urban Gateline
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This doesn't surprise me sadly, SWT have cut staffing hours of many Gatelines at smaller stations, Raynes Park and Earlsfield used to be manned full time and now only during morning and afternoon peak if you're lucky! (or unlucky in the eyes of a fare dodger)
Havant also seems to be manned not as much as it used to be, same as Woking and Guildford, major stations which often have one Gateline out of two open, making it pointless to operate it at all!
Woking and Guildford are rarely unstaffed. They are only unstaffed if a break's being covered or similar. Obviously if there's no staff due to sickness etc that would be an exception, but there's almost always enough CSA/Revenue staff floating about to have all large station barriers staffed.
The problem with smaller stations (Aldershot and Walton-on-Thames being main ones) is that obviously it makes more financial sense to have the larger ones staffed all the time, and leave the smaller stations open outside peak times. If they were to think outside the box though, the management would probably realise that having even the smallest of barriered stations staffed, the protection of revenue etc would off-set the cost of the extra staff.
Also, by still having smaller barriers staffed in the morning and evening peaks, it looks good for the regular commuters who can see that SWT have their barriers staffed, as these commuters only ever see them operational...If they started having them open all the time, I'm not sure who'd be more scary, the commuters on the Alton line users club or whatever they're called, or the DfT.
AndyLandy
Established Member
It appears to be true of larger stations, such as Southampton and Winchester as well. Once upon a time, I arrived back in Soton Ctl at 8pm on New Year's Day and the gateline was manned and operational. Nowadays you can get in relatively early evening on a weekday and the barriers are open.
I've noticed that phenomenon as well and it strikes me as really bizarre. As you say, it's counter-productive to pay people to man one set of gates when it's obvious to any fare evaders that they can just walk around to the other side.
Urban Gateline
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I quite agree with having all barriered stations staffed! Southern seem to do this perfectly, nearly all their stations in Z1-6 are now barriered and have near full time operation of barriers! It really puts SWT to shame...
Staines is a good example of a station where SWT have just lost interest in Revenue Protection, used to be full time manned and now you regularly see the barriers open at one or both exits! I see part time positions advertised frequently on the SWT site for Gateline, including a 10hr a week contract at Norbiton, 2hrs a day...pitiful! :-x
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Exactly! I would hate to work at such a Station knowing the other entrance was open and unmanned so the fare evaders were just walking off without being challenged, it is demoralising, I would suggest remote operation from the main Gateline but at busier station that's simply not possible, too dangerous!
horizonflame
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I disagree there as I live in Woking. It is quite common for me to enter the main entrance around 06:35 and pass over to platform one to find the town side gates open. It's the same story when arriving back around 19:20, if I am going for a drink town side they've been open a lot lately.
Staines is another example where the main entrance is gated of an evening but other platform entrance gates open, and they're opposite each other!
It's doesn't take me for fare evaders to see opportunities for a free ride.
Phillipimo
Member
And it's not like they didn't have the staff, we walked onto the platform and there were 2 staff leaning against the wall! is it that hard to walk inside?
But do SWT do more on board ticket checks? Not a regular traveller on them but happen to have done London-Fleet and London Poole recently and had ticket checked both ways on both services. My seson ticket on Southern is probably checked once a week in to London and never on way out (other than through barriers at Charing X.)
The gateline at Bristol Temple Meads seems to be pretty relaxed. I put my ticket in the gateline and it refused it, it was valid, so I approached the gateline assistant and said 'Excuse me, my ticket isn't being accepted' and without even checking it raised his hand to suggest I was able to walk through the open gate next to him. I'd of thought after telling the gate won't accept my ticket he'd be extra suspicious of my ticket, or is that not how it works?
They also let my brother pass the gateline the other week so that he was able to use the toilet.
They also let my brother pass the gateline the other week so that he was able to use the toilet.
It is the same at many South Eastern stations, for example I have never seen the gates (two sets) at Tunbridge Wells in use, I've heard it suggested that they cost too much to staff, so why install them in the first place?
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It's a 'box ticking' exercise, to make the DfT happy.
DfT are obsessed with ticket barriers, but don't seem to mind if the barriers accept nothing but the staff allow everyone & anything through (like Leeds), or are usually left open (as with your example), or are obstructive and deny passengers with valid tickets by making up rules e.g. "Railcards are not valid before 0900/0930/1000" or "Break of journey is not permitted" or "We are not National Rail, we only accept Oyster cards and Travelcards" and all sorts of other ridiculous excuses (London Overground).
If they are properly manned, by well-trained staff who apply the rules correctly (but, if not sure on routeing etc, let passengers through), then I have no problem with them.
But, in reality, it often seems to be one extreme or the other! But either extreme ticks the DfT's box (in fact their mere presence makes the DfT happy), so the inconsistencies look set to continue.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
My tickets bought at Hooton never work at Liverpool Central.
Last week the excuse was "maybe the magnetic stripe was damaged".
Not a very convincing excuse for a pristine ticket.
Yesterday I got to the bottom of it after another rejection.
The cheery gateman looked at my ticket and said "it's because you bought it with a Senior Railcard".
Uh? Why would Merseyrail reject perfectly valid tickets bought with a Railcard?
Are oldies dodgy travellers? Seems like age discrimination to me...
Mitch in Notts
Member
It would reject it I expect because you need to show your senior railcard. London underground barriers wouldn't accept staff privilege tickets without showing your staff travel card last time I used one (15 years ago).
lincolnshire
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Gate lines yet again been open.
What I would like to know is Who? is paying for the installation of barriers then? because if your the TOC who has paid for them, why not use them or is it the Goverment who is indirectly paying for them?
How did we manage years ago when we had staff on ticket barriers
What I would like to know is Who? is paying for the installation of barriers then? because if your the TOC who has paid for them, why not use them or is it the Goverment who is indirectly paying for them?
How did we manage years ago when we had staff on ticket barriers
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I don't buy that.
Other ticket gates don't do that (eg Chester), and I wasn't asked for my railcard at the manual barrier anyway.
Surely if the gates were configured correctly to allow all them sorts of valid tickets that you've listed then there wouldn't be a requirement for so many staff to be on the barriers.
AndyLandy
Established Member
The problem is:
Do you restrict the number of tickets that work in the barriers, so people have to seek staff assistance if their ticket isn't just a plain Anytime to-this-destination ticket, but therefore ensure that every ticket is being fully validated.
Or
Do you maximise the number of tickets that work the barriers, so that people aren't inconvenienced, but you make it easier to do things like doughnutting, travelling without a valid railcard, or using weird and wacky tickets that open the barriers even though they aren't valid for the journey a passenger has just taken?
Ticket gates are not the silver bullet solution to fare evasion on the national rail network. In some locations, at certain times of the day, they represent one technique that, if deployed correctly, can help combat fare evasion and streamline the process of allowing passengers in and out of the station. But this bizarre notion that we should just barrier every single station we can and that'll magically reduce fare evasion is just madness.
Some do.
Some will change, depending on how they've been configured at that particular moment.
In that case Chester is among the majority, which don't.
If a barrier is set to reject Railcard discounted tickets, that does not guarantee that the staff will manually inspect Railcards.
I don't use the barriers at BRI much since I mainly change there but have found that either my ticket in the past has been rejected because of me either breaking a journey using an off-peak return or have a ticket that's valid with Railcard. Twice I've had my ticket the rejected and that gateline assistant has let me pass with me just flashing my ticket, not inspecting it and certainly not asking to see my Railcard which is firmly tucked away in my wallet in my pocket.
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I agree,
Southern seem to staff their barriers even at places like Leatherhead until 2330hrs some evenings! Same with their Ticket Offices.
swt_passenger
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It may well do, but the reason is that by the time SN's franchise was let, the DFT allowed TfL to buy in different standards of station manning for the new SN franchise. That two year gap between SWT and SN being let accounts for a lot of the differences.
So it is not really possible to suggest that because SN do it one way, so SWT should as well, because they are funded differently...
This was TfL's press release about it at the time:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/static/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/12041.html
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Urban Gateline
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Ahh that's interesting, thanks for that as I genuinely didn't know SN had different funding for Revenue Protection, seems bizarre really as SWT could do with that too!
Shame about Walton on Thames, it's one of my local stations and it only has a Gateline person there 6-10am and another at 4-7:30pm and only on the London bound side mainly! Similar story at Weybridge, which is quite a busy station. The worst bit is there are rarely RPI's coming to work with the Gateline person at these stations so in effect people still get off scot-free... :roll:
swt_passenger
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You find that there's a few topical issues where certain franchises lag or lead others, because DfT have come up with an idea for some sort of change, but don't go back to earlier franchises. Things like 'delay repay' which applies to every new franchise after SWT's 2007. ITSO was new with SWT, and later, but doesn't apply to SE.
You would expect that TfL having specified manning increases for SN in the zonal area, they'll follow that up as other franchises are renewed in due course...
You would expect that TfL having specified manning increases for SN in the zonal area, they'll follow that up as other franchises are renewed in due course...
The gateline from Ashford [Kent] domestic to the International Ticket Hall is remotely operated from the Ticket Office but if they get too many assistance calls they tend to leave the gates open.
Regards
Bushy
At least one set of gates are normally open at Ashford, sometimes all of them, and there are people going from one side of the station to the other who are allowed through without question, the gates may as well not be there for what use they are.
swt_passenger
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AIUI the ITSO cards work fine where the trial is live, but then they only ever had to undertake a live trial. The SWT ITSO card (Stagecoach Smart) isn't usable anywhere in the Oyster area at all, which covers a large part of the network anyway. I don't see why that would necessarily correlate with non-Waterloo guards?
Down here in Hants all the ITSO validators and barrier readers are on, and the option to purchase is on all the TVMs; so I assume it does something. I know from previous discussions that they only issue cards to season ticket holders, but once they have the cards they can buy normal tickets with them.
Unusable was probably too strong a word. But what I meant was most of the stations are equipped, but the guards who don't already have Oyster readers have no way of verifying what ticket is on the card, if any (hence non-Waterloo guards).
They're still theoretically usable as it's of course the TOC's fault if the guards can't check your ticket, but most people wouldn't like the suspicious looks I always got when trying to use it for my season ticket!
It is also not obvious how to get hold of them, which does lead me to believe they're trying to hide it away, probably for this reason.
They're still theoretically usable as it's of course the TOC's fault if the guards can't check your ticket, but most people wouldn't like the suspicious looks I always got when trying to use it for my season ticket!
It is also not obvious how to get hold of them, which does lead me to believe they're trying to hide it away, probably for this reason.
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