Ticket Barriers

wibble · 15 Aug 2013

Muzer said:
It is also not obvious how to get hold of them, which does lead me to believe they're trying to hide it away, probably for this reason.

A significant proportion of their commuters will be travelling into the London area where ITSO isn't compatible with Oyster. It would be misleading for them to advertise smartcards as an althernative to paper seasons if the majority of commuters can't make use of them.

You can but seasons on ITSO through the SWT's website or through their customer services.

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Smethwickian · 15 Aug 2013

AndyLandy said:
I've noticed that phenomenon as well and it strikes me as really bizarre. As you say, it's counter-productive to pay people to man one set of gates when it's obvious to any fare evaders that they can just walk around to the other side.

Walking into York station on Saturday, for the 2035 to Birmingham New Street, there was a thorough ticket check in operation at the platform entrance from the main concourse. But being a bit early, I went for a drink at the (York Tap?) bar, only to note that its 'outside' seating area opened straight onto the platform with no obstacle to would-be fare evaders. Also, people were freely entering and leaving unchecked from the short-stay car park and, as far as I could see, the bridge from the NRM.

So apart from being a potentially slight inconvenience, no real point to the barrier at all as far as a hardened fare dodger would be concerned.

And needless to say my own perfectly valid ticket wasn't checked once on board the train or on arrival at BHM.

Muzer · 15 Aug 2013

wibble said:
You can but seasons on ITSO through the SWT's website

I don't know if this has changed, but you couldn't when I tried it. You had to phone them.

lukeobrien02 · 15 Aug 2013

I was getting of a Train at east croydon a while back when my ticket was rejected a travelcard i went to the barrier the man looked at the ticket then let me through the barrier it was only when i put the ticket back in my wallet i saw that it was not the ticket i had bought that morning but was one i had bought a week back which was not only had a different date but had April on it and not May.

causton · 15 Aug 2013

Some gateline staff are just happy to show you a ticket!

Last time I needed help at East Croydon it was because the Daysave didn't work the barrier... On the way back into the station after leaving I told the lady on the gateline "Hey, we have Daysaves and they won't work the barriers" and she just opened them up for us without even checking we had them :lol:

Antman · 15 Aug 2013

lukeobrien02 said:
I was getting of a Train at east croydon a while back when my ticket was rejected a travelcard i went to the barrier the man looked at the ticket then let me through the barrier it was only when i put the ticket back in my wallet i saw that it was not the ticket i had bought that morning but was one i had bought a week back which was not only had a different date but had April on it and not May.

Doesn't suprise me, many gateline staff have a very lax attitude, or maybe they just bothered with any confronation?

I travelled from Sevenoaks to Sheerness and back today via Swanley and Sittingbourne, all the ticket gates I saw were open and not one on train ticket check in either direction

bicbasher · 15 Aug 2013

One afternoon I had to use New Cross and New Cross Gate. NX had the barriers open at 1330 while NXG had them closed with a gateline assistant.

New Cross is managed by Southeastern, so you can imagine it's a way for fare evaders to get on the TfL system.

mattdickinson · 16 Aug 2013

Muzer said:
I don't know if this has changed, but you couldn't when I tried it. You had to phone them.

The easiest way to get one is to order a weekly Ryde Pier Head - Ryde Esplanade season from the website.

Antman · 16 Aug 2013

bicbasher said:
One afternoon I had to use New Cross and New Cross Gate. NX had the barriers open at 1330 while NXG had them closed with a gateline assistant.

New Cross is managed by Southeastern, so you can imagine it's a way for fare evaders to get on the TfL system.

That sums up the difference between Southern and South Eastern

Chrisgr31 · 16 Aug 2013

wibble said:
A significant proportion of their commuters will be travelling into the London area where ITSO isn't compatible with Oyster. It would be misleading for them to advertise smartcards as an althernative to paper seasons if the majority of commuters can't make use of them.

You can but seasons on ITSO through the SWT's website or through their customer services.

Southern have been promoting "The Key" heavily which is their own ITSO card however as mentioned its not compatible with Oyster so for most commuters its as much use as a chocolate teapot. I understand its not compatible mainly due to Oyster coming in before the specification of ITSO was developed. However apparently Oyster readers are being upgraded.

The Southern website says their version though does not have a Pay as You Go facility yet, although it is being developed. Pay as You Go must be the most useful facility and presumably will help with the proposals to introduce more flexible season tickets that allow you to travel 3 days a week etc.

AndyLandy · 16 Aug 2013

Chrisgr31 said:
Southern have been promoting "The Key" heavily which is their own ITSO card however as mentioned its not compatible with Oyster so for most commuters its as much use as a chocolate teapot. I understand its not compatible mainly due to Oyster coming in before the specification of ITSO was developed. However apparently Oyster readers are being upgraded.

This is pretty unsurprising though. If we want to move to a standard smartcard-based system, we have to start somewhere. I have a "The Key" card for my season ticket for the local bus services here in Southampton, but it's only valid on bus services that are run by Go Ahead Group.

I expect ITSO to be fairly pointless for the next couple of years or so, but eventually it'll permeate all over the place and we'll start to be able to do clever integrated ticketing type things.

swt_passenger · 16 Aug 2013

Chrisgr31 said:
...and presumably will help with the proposals to introduce more flexible season tickets that allow you to travel 3 days a week etc.

I'd be interested in what sort of ballpark price ratio you would expect a '3 day per week season' to have, compared to a normal 7 day season?

bicbasher · 16 Aug 2013

Steve Ford said:
That sums up the difference between Southern and South Eastern

New Cross Gate is managed by London Overground (LOROL).

Urban Gateline · 16 Aug 2013

Steve Ford said:
That sums up the difference between Southern and South Eastern

More like between Southeastern and LOROL, as New Cross Gate is managed by LOROL, not Southern!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

bicbasher said:
New Cross Gate is managed by London Overground (LOROL).

Oops you beat me too it, hadn't read that far down the page!

Antman · 16 Aug 2013

bicbasher said:
New Cross Gate is managed by London Overground (LOROL).

Oh yes fair point, but most Southern gatelines are staffed until late evening whilst most South Eastern are unstaffed and open even at peak times

swt_passenger · 16 Aug 2013

Steve Ford said:
Oh yes fair point, but most Southern gatelines are staffed until late evening whilst most South Eastern are unstaffed and open even at peak times

That's because TfL 'bought in' additional staffing in the zones for the new SN franchise - see my earlier post #23 on page 2. This makes SN almost unique amongst London area TOCs, but I think it will come in at next renewals for all of them.

Chrisgr31 · 16 Aug 2013

swt_passenger said:
I'd be interested in what sort of ballpark price ratio you would expect a '3 day per week season' to have, compared to a normal 7 day season?

I don't know! Not really something I care about I work 5 days a week although as my work does involve being on the road some days I guss with organisation I might benefit!

However I can see why those travelling 3 days a week might complain.

But I think in general a PAYG card which offers discounted travel based on the journeys made will attract people to the railways. Ticket prices are a joke, I am going from Kings Cross to Telford in October, and the return ticket has cost less than the standard return from home to london a distance of around 40 miles.

swt_passenger · 16 Aug 2013

What I'm thinking of, based on a question in an SWT web chat, was someone thought a 3 day season should be pro-rata and cost about 3/7 of a weekly. This unsurprisingly would lead to a three day season costing less than a day return. That obviously isn't likely to happen...

I then thought let's just look at working days, and found that on current prices, a 3/5 ratio still made the 3 day version only slightly more expensive than an anytime day return. Intuitively that seems unlikely to happen as well, so the realistic scope for any discount for a 3 day season seems only small. Fares on different routes obviously lead to different comparisons...

Chrisgr31 · 17 Aug 2013

swt_passenger said:
What I'm thinking of, based on a question in an SWT web chat, was someone thought a 3 day season should be pro-rata and cost about 3/7 of a weekly. This unsurprisingly would lead to a three day season costing less than a day return. That obviously isn't likely to happen...

I then thought let's just look at working days, and found that on current prices, a 3/5 ratio still made the 3 day version only slightly more expensive than an anytime day return. Intuitively that seems unlikely to happen as well, so the realistic scope for any discount for a 3 day season seems only small. Fares on different routes obviously lead to different comparisons...

I can't remember how the prices in general are worked out but I doubt many season tickets whether they are weekly, monthly or annual are used for more than 5 days in a week, although having said that, my view might be influenced by doing a 40 mile commute and most on it are office workers. So those who are in retail or not white collar jobs might be doing 6 or even 7 day weeks. Also those who live on the edge of cities might be using them more as they might be going out on their commuting route more etc.

So in order to get the whole system working fairly and taking benefit of ITSO technology which allows one to track card usage I would suggest that the discount is more related to number of journeys undertaken.

So something like:-

For 3 return journeys in a week you get 1 free

For 5 return journeys in a week you get 2 free

For 7 return journeys in a week you get 3 free

However it gets more complicated with ITSO cards especially if you want to make them pay as you go, and adding monthlies annual etc!

Solent&Wessex · 17 Aug 2013

Manchester Oxford Road gates are in use pretty much all day (but not in the evening when they would be most useful), but the wide gate at the end is always open, and the staff manning it just let folk wander through without even asking for or checking tickets, so it is a fairly pointless waste of money putting them in there. There is no shortage of staff, they just don't seem that interested.

The new gates at Huddersfield, introduced with much song and dance recently, are hardly ever in use at any time - seemingly due to "staff shortages".

Leeds might as well not be there. Again they are normally always in use, even in the evening, with staff in attendance. But, yet again, they normally leave the wide gates open and normally unattended so you can just walk through there unchallenged. The staff are often just milling around chatting to each other. You can also just wander up to the gates and look confused, whereupon a hand will appear and open the gate for you without even asking for a ticket.

Every time I have been through Bradford Interchange they have been open and unattended.

Every time I have been through London Kings Cross they have been open.

Blackpool North, however, seem quite efficient with their gates.

sbt · 17 Aug 2013

My chief issue with barriers is the way that many of them are installed.

At both Woking and Havant, places that have been noted earlier in the tread not to staff them full time, the installation on the London Bound platform narrows the platform. On top of this the Departure Board screens are placed where barrier staff can read them - which means that the easiest place for passengers who want to read the to congregate is on the narrowed bit of platform. At Havant a token set of hatched lines is present but nothing says what they indicate and passengers are not directed away from them (in which case they would not be able to read the 'Next Train To' screens). It gets worse if someone has been stopped and is being interviewed at the gate - often there will be multiple rail staff and 'friends of the passenger' in the barrier/platform area.

I see this as a potential safety hazard, particularly at Havant. You have to watch yourself if you want to go past that area to get to the lifts, waiting room, toilets or shop (circumstances differ on each station). Its particularly fun when cyclists or mums with pushchairs are in that area. Watch out for people suddenly backing away from the screens and departing for their platform at speed without checking behind them.

Its not a massive hazard but it is a worry. Its also part of the reason mystified rail staff find that Commuters from those stations don't board the rear portion of trains to London from those stations - its much less hastle to use the London end of the platforms.

Ok, minor issues maybe. But it does annoy when the gates that cause these issues aren't manned.

maniacmartin · 17 Aug 2013

Another problem with gatelines is that the assistants manning them are not allowed under many TOC's policy to physically prevent those without tickets passing through. There is little wonder that some don't care what ticket is presented, given that if they said no and a passenger barged past, they are pretty powerless to intervene anyway.

Antman · 17 Aug 2013

maniacmartin said:
Another problem with gatelines is that the assistants manning them are not allowed under many TOC's policy to physically prevent those without tickets passing through. There is little wonder that some don't care what ticket is presented, given that if they said no and a passenger barged past, they are pretty powerless to intervene anyway.

Exactly,I have heard it suggested that at some stations at least one gate is left open to allow such people through without conflict.

sheff1 · 18 Aug 2013

Steve Ford said:
Exactly,I have heard it suggested that at some stations at least one gate is left open to allow such people through without conflict.

Wouldn't surprise me.

If I have a valid ticket which is neither from nor to the station I am exiting (a rather frequent occurrence

) I always go via any open barrier to save the hassle of having the ticket rejected. On probably 95% of occasions no one requests sight of the ticket I have in my hand. Before, however, I adopted this policy staff would approach as soon as the ticket was rejected and, on a lot more than 5% of occasions, proclaim it be invalid !

infobleep · 18 Aug 2013

Stigy said:
Woking and Guildford are rarely unstaffed. They are only unstaffed if a break's being covered or similar. Obviously if there's no staff due to sickness etc that would be an exception, but there's almost always enough CSA/Revenue staff floating about to have all large station barriers staffed.

I have to disagree here. I regularly leave Guildford via the back entrance and fairly often the gates are open. On Sundays it is always open in the morning before 9am and in the evening around 6pm. A fare dogger could easily fare doge at these times if they wish.

As for week day evenings, it appears to be randomly open or closed. Now I might be passing through at any time between 6pm and 8pm. Some of this may be due to staffing issues. I don't know.

Now the footbridge is a public right of way, so they have to keep it open for use until 1.30am, when it is allowed to be closed until 4am (or is it 4.30am). The poster state you must ask for a pass to cross the footbridge. However that is impossible to do if no staff are available to ask.

If the station is ever redeveloped then I imagine they will create another footbridge which doesn't pass through the station platforms and they will apply to have the footpath diverted.

If I ever wanted to fare dodge I reckon I could work out the best times to travel. Of course I only have this information because I have travelled regularly with valid tickets. As a result I've built up a picture of when barriers are most likely to be manned or the trains most likely to have ticket checks in operation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

swt_passenger said:
You find that there's a few topical issues where certain franchises lag or lead others, because DfT have come up with an idea for some sort of change, but don't go back to earlier franchises. Things like 'delay repay' which applies to every new franchise after SWT's 2007. ITSO was new with SWT, and later, but doesn't apply to SE.

You would expect that TfL having specified manning increases for SN in the zonal area, they'll follow that up as other franchises are renewed in due course...

Why are they not allowed to introduce changes during a franchise and only when it is relet. I mean they make changes to timetables during franchises rather than keeping to the set times during a franchise period.

Would changes during franchises allow for a greater innovation in rail travel?

edwin_m · 18 Aug 2013

infobleep said:
Why are they not allowed to introduce changes during a franchise and only when it is relet. I mean they make changes to timetables during franchises rather than keeping to the set times during a franchise period.

Would changes during franchises allow for a greater innovation in rail travel?

If changes are introduced into the specification for a new franchise then all the bidders will price these changes and anyone putting in a silly price is likely to be underbid by someone else.

If changes are proposed during an existing franchise that affect the franchisee's costs (and most do) then the sponsor has no option other than agreeing to whatever price the franchisee quotes, or not going ahead with the change until the next franchise. This is quite like some builders etc who quote low but know that they can make their money on the inevitable "extras" that come up during the job.

There are clauses in the contract that attempt to get round this, for example service changes considered likely may be included as options at the bid stage and the franchisee may have to cost up others based on agreed rates, but most franchisees will have ways and means of making sure they extract the most money they can. And by definition it's difficult for the contract to make provision for changes that weren't anticipated at the time it was drawn up.

A couple of years ago I was involved in a business case for an extra service in an existing franchise. The franchisee had been asked to quote for the extra operating cost and had produced a costing that included a number of extra trains and crews to work it, no doubt at some agreed rate based on actual costs. However if we assumed the service was introduced in the next franchise instead, the costs fell dramatically because the trains and crews would be interworked with the rest of the network.

CockneySparrow · 19 Aug 2013

1e10 said:
The gateline at Bristol Temple Meads seems to be pretty relaxed. I put my ticket in the gateline and it refused it, it was valid, so I approached the gateline assistant and said 'Excuse me, my ticket isn't being accepted' and without even checking it raised his hand to suggest I was able to walk through the open gate next to him. I'd of thought after telling the gate won't accept my ticket he'd be extra suspicious of my ticket, or is that not how it works?

They also let my brother pass the gateline the other week so that he was able to use the toilet.

Guess its call your bluff time lol, if someone didn't have a valid ticket they probably wouldn't attempt to use the gates anyway

Besides they can tell whether your genuine or not by body language and appearance, having said that it only takes a couple of seconds to check

Antman · 20 Aug 2013

CockneySparrow said:
Guess its call your bluff time lol, if someone didn't have a valid ticket they probably wouldn't attempt to use the gates anyway

Besides they can tell whether your genuine or not by body language and appearance, having said that it only takes a couple of seconds to check

#

I've had that scenario many times, my ticket was rejected by the barriers at London Bridge recently and the member of staff there was so busy chatting to a colleague that she didn't even glance at me or my ticket as she opened the gate to let me through

1e10 · 25 Aug 2013

Yesterday at Dawlish fencing had been put in the car park and passengers were required to cue and have their tickets checked before leaving the station. They were then also checked before entering the station again. Lots of staff were on hand and were very helpful.

Then at Bristol Temple Meads when leaving the station I was surprised that the ticket barriers were actually being used correctly. The larger gate that's usually just left open to the side was closed and there was 3 members of staff assisting with the gates rather then the usual 1. The were checking tickets thoroughly.

CC 72100 · 25 Aug 2013

1e10 said:
Yesterday at Dawlish fencing had been put in the car park and passengers were required to cue and have their tickets checked before leaving the station. They were then also checked before entering the station again. Lots of staff were on hand and were very helpful.

Sounds like the same plan as last year then. It was thorough but organised and well-managed, and ensured that people didn't take advantage of the busy trains to treat themselves to a free ride.

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