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Special needs children denied free first class upgrades

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PermitToTravel

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Yes it has, as it wasn't declassified according to a friend of a forum member who was on the train. Also if it was declassified anyone could have entered so it wouldn't have made sense.

This is rather misleading. Upon clicking on this thread, one is greeted with the OP
an article has appeared on my facebook feed and thought how disgusting it really is.
right beneath the title
Special needs children denied free first class upgrades

The opening sentence of the OP was written in the context of people being denied entry to a declassified first class carriage, something that MCW is stating that they feel to be disgusting. MCW did not say that they thought that people being denied free upgrades is disgusting, but one naturally assumes that the thread title was written by the OP.

Please could this be clarified with a note stating that the thread has been renamed in the OP, to avoid confusion? With other forum software, I think that a thread being renamed will mark the first post as having been edited, but this appears not to be the case here
 
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MCW

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can we just close the blinkin thread case I'm more confused now than I was when I posted the ruddy article!!!
 

yorkie

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MCW did not say that they thought that people being denied free upgrades is disgusting...
Well, it was MCW who, I guess mistakenly, said it was 'declassified' but I believe this to be a case of using the wrong terminology, as nowhere in the article did it state (or suggest) that FC was declassified.

By definition, declassified means anyone can use it, so if it was declassified, it could not have happened.
 

MCW

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Well, it was MCW who, I guess mistakenly, said it was 'declassified' but I believe this to be a case of using the wrong terminology, as nowhere in the article did it state (or suggest) that FC was declassified.

By definition, declassified means anyone can use it, so if it was declassified, it could not have happened.

I obviously misread the article... I just made that assumption and read the article trying to make heads and tails of it, by page three I kind of got my head round it more and got involved in the discussion actvely, now I feel I opened a can of worms over the whole thing.... :roll::lol:
 

Goatboy

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There are almost certainly rich 'toffs' out there who believe they're paying for some level of 'exclusivity' so they don't have to sit with us 'plebs'.

Thats somewhat unfair - it's well known that one of the unadvertised benefits of First is what you don't get rather than what you do (As on XC you get precious little!). That doesn't make people prepared to pay more for that 'snobs' or 'toffs', it just makes them people prepared to pay a bit more for the peace and quiet that naturally tends (but not always) to go with a coach that only accomodates a small volume of passengers, thats all.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Thats somewhat unfair - it's well known that one of the unadvertised benefits of First is what you don't get rather than what you do (As on XC you get precious little!). That doesn't make people prepared to pay more for that 'snobs' or 'toffs', it just makes them people prepared to pay a bit more for the peace and quiet that naturally tends (but not always) to go with a coach that only accomodates a small volume of passengers, thats all.

You voice my sentiments exactly on this matter.
 

AndyLandy

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Thats somewhat unfair - it's well known that one of the unadvertised benefits of First is what you don't get rather than what you do (As on XC you get precious little!). That doesn't make people prepared to pay more for that 'snobs' or 'toffs', it just makes them people prepared to pay a bit more for the peace and quiet that naturally tends (but not always) to go with a coach that only accomodates a small volume of passengers, thats all.

Except it's not explicit. It's unadvertised and merely assumed. There's nothing to stop a very wealthy children's group buying a load of kids 1st class travel and have them potentially disrupt the journeys of the other 1st class passengers.

So, you aren't paying for that, because it's not guaranteed. Partly because you can't discriminate in that way. You can only discriminate on price, and hope that it works out that way.

But that's the crux of this issue. If a bunch of screaming kids all have 1st class tickets, there's very little you can do about it, but if you're talking about free upgrades at the train manager's discretion, that's a different matter. There's an impetus to not disrupt the existing 1st class passengers. After all, they've often paid a lot of money to be there, and the only judgement comes from the say of the guard. But any decision by the guard could so easily be seen as discrimination.

(Apologies about the 'toffs' remark. There's a bit of A-implies-B doesn't mean B-implies-A. I was trying to make out that some 1st travellers might be like this, not that all 1st class passengers are. I don't think I made that clear in the first post.)
 

Goatboy

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So, you aren't paying for that, because it's not guaranteed.

You are paying for that, and it is guaranteed. I didn't say 'no kids' (There are often kids in First) I said less people. There are what, 60-70 seats in a standard class coach. There are circa 24 in a First Class coach on a Voyager.

Therefore, the overwhelming probability is that it's a nicer environment simply because there are less people in it.

A First Class coach with every seat occupied doesn't feel packed. A standard class coach with every seat occupied does.
 

ex-railwayman

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Having read the article a few times, in the first couple of sentences, there are confusing storylines -

''Special needs children as young as four were told to sit on the floor of a train rather than in empty first-class seats because they would ‘spoil’ the ambiance of the carriage.

The youngsters found standard class packed to the brim, meaning they had to sit outside the toilets.''


So, in essence, the kids were already sitting on the floor as the train departed, as it was packed in Standard Class, we all know that these days most children won't stand up anyway and in many cases when a train departs from a station if you haven't got a seat you make yourself as comfortable as possible in the position you are already in, so, it doesn't sound like they were told to sit on the floor by the TM, they were already there, I wonder what other inconsistencies there are in this story, however, having gone onto the Daily Record website I can't even find the original story, that the Metro have reprinted, and I went back to May 2013.
Also, according to the website of the Stage Right Theatre School the kids involved are aged between 5-15, not as young as 4 years old, as the first sentence implies, so after 3 minutes of reading I found the article had too many flaws and wondered what else had been ''sexed up'' to provide fodder against the TOC, especially now, as a petition has been organised, maybe we ought to ask for a petition against the newspapers for writing such unfactual drivel on a daily basis.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.
 
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AndyLandy

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You are paying for that, and it is guaranteed. I didn't say 'no kids' (There are often kids in First) I said less people. There are what, 60-70 seats in a standard class coach. There are circa 24 in a First Class coach on a Voyager.

Therefore, the overwhelming probability is that it's a nicer environment simply because there are less people in it.

A First Class coach with every seat occupied doesn't feel packed. A standard class coach with every seat occupied does.

You're quite right, although I'd posit that even overwhelming probability isn't quite the same as being guaranteed something. For sure, paying for a First Class ticket doesn't even guarantee you a seat. It's just very unlikely you won't get one.
 

FGW_DID

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I can see it getting to the stage where the employees request that they be provided with and wear a video recording device so interactions with customers/passengers could be videoed. This would be done for the protection of customer/passenger and employee and is absolute in the evidence it provides about who said what during any questionable scenario

The latest edition of FGW's in house magazine has an article about a 6 month trial of body-mounted CCTV being worn by a couple of Revenue Protection staff. The article mentions the only other TOC to operate this sort of technology is MerseyRail which has seen a 50% reduction in assaults on employees in the first year of use.
 

trainophile

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Sorry this isn't exactly related to the topic under discussion but I don't think it merits a new thread... Just wondering what happens, when a 1st Class coach is declassified, as regards the 1st Class ticket holders who occupy it? Do they get recompensed for the extra they paid, or is it just hard luck?
 

Zoidberg

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So what if "a bunch of screaming brats" had paid for tickets for first class? Would you still kick them out because they were loud? As far as I am aware there is no "code of behavior" for first class that is any different to standard class. Doesn't matter if they are loud, or annoying, or whatever.

...

But is there not a Bye-Law offence covering causing a nuisance to other users of the Railway which could (should) be used to limit the activities any and all bunches of screaming brats anywhere on the Railway.
 

Crossover

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Sorry this isn't exactly related to the topic under discussion but I don't think it merits a new thread... Just wondering what happens, when a 1st Class coach is declassified, as regards the 1st Class ticket holders who occupy it? Do they get recompensed for the extra they paid, or is it just hard luck?

Yes, there is compensation available
 

AlterEgo

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Has this really descended into a discussion about whether special needs children under 10 are breaking any byelaws about being noisy?

I'm rubbing my eyes here.
 

maniacmartin

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I suspect that what may have happened here is that there were spare seats in First, but not a continuous amount of seats big enough for the group. If I was a TM in such a scenario, I'd look to upgrade groups of the sizes of the sets of seats available.

School parties etc should be kept together if possible as it makes it much easier for those responsible for them to supervise them. I'd also guess that large groups of children are quite excitable and could get noisy, so they are less likely to get discretionary upgrades.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the TM had upgraded the group, you can also bet that there'd be complaints along the lines of "I paid £X00 to travel in first, then the staff just let a load of rowdy children in for free"
 

al78

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Has this really descended into a discussion about whether special needs children under 10 are breaking any byelaws about being noisy?

I'm rubbing my eyes here.

No, it was querying whether any children making excessive noise to the detriment of other passengers are breaking any byelaws.
 
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MCW

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Has this really descended into a discussion about whether special needs children under 10 are breaking any byelaws about being noisy?

I'm rubbing my eyes here.

to be honest its my fault this bloody thread happened....

anyways, before anyone makes any other comments about the special needs kids and noise or whatever, please think about something. the picture of the group on the daily record article does show a few that I can see straight away as being autistic (and before anyone says I can't say that I'm autistic, have two autistic cousins, a suspected autistic uncle and nan!). the fact these kids would have potentially been loud and noisy should be seen as one of the difficulties these children have, some of them have probably yet to learn to control their volume levels and how to behave in public or contain their excitement.

so before any more nonsense comes out about noise, bye-laws, cops, trains and complaints, please think about what I have just put. not everyone on this planet is the same.
 

al78

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Regarding disruptive noise, if someone is being loud and abusive to fellow passengers, and it is a night service so no onboard staff to notify, is there anything that any passenger can do about it*, or are they completely stuffed and have to put up with it?

This situation did happen once on a train I was on, and I had no idea what to do about it.

*Of course I mean acting within the law, so not including thumping the perpetrator. :)
 

BestWestern

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Regarding disruptive noise, if someone is being loud and abusive to fellow passengers, and it is a night service so no onboard staff to notify, is there anything that any passenger can do about it*, or are they completely stuffed and have to put up with it?

This situation did happen once on a train I was on, and I had no idea what to do about it.

*Of course I mean acting within the law, so not including thumping the perpetrator. :)

Well, a train with no on board staff would be DOO - Driver Only Operation - which applies day and night; Guards don't just go home at night time!

But if it were a train with no staff on board, then yes, you're lumbered with it. The joys of DOO include the possibility of sharing a coach with yobs, muggers, and just about anybody else, with absolutely nobody about to deter them. But, of course, the tickets much are cheaper because there's no expensive Guard to pay for.... Oh no, hold on.... :roll:

Anyway, we're off-topic now!
 

SteamPower

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I highly doubt the free first class upgrade being refused had anything to do with the children having special needs.

Why should anyone get a free first class upgrade? It negates the incentive to pay the premium for the accommodation.
 
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BestWestern

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I highly doubt the free first class upgrade being refused had anything to do with the children having special needs.

Why should anyone get a free first class upgrade? It negates the incentive to pay the premium for the accommodation.

I must confess that I do get irked by the mentality that first class should become an overspill for standard on a busy train, the reason first has space available being the fact that it comes at a premium!

In this case though, I would probably agree that an 'upgrade' may have been appropriate if the special needs requirements of these children was such that they would have been in discomfort of some form travelling in standard, and if their situation was apparent or the adults supervising made it clear. That said, if they were as rude to the TM as somebody has suggested, then the adults deserved a flea in their ear at the same time! - but obviously not the abuse they claim they were given (unlikely IMHO).

Sadly, it's all about the PR these days and staff have to think on when dealing with this sort of stuff. What would customer services say, what looks best for the brand, and so on; these are your main considerations a lot of the time. I would prefer to offer somebody a seat in first at my own discretion than say no and then have them end up with a fistfull of free vouchers and an apology that makes it look as it I was in the wrong!
 

deltic1989

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Regarding disruptive noise, if someone is being loud and abusive to fellow passengers, and it is a night service so no onboard staff to notify, is there anything that any passenger can do about it*, or are they completely stuffed and have to put up with it?

This situation did happen once on a train I was on, and I had no idea what to do about it.

*Of course I mean acting within the law, so not including thumping the perpetrator. :)

Section 24a of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984
or
Section 3 of the Criminal Law Act 1967
May apply in this situation. Although I am unsure if these can be applied to a Bylaw offence.
 

SteamPower

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In this case though, I would probably agree that an 'upgrade' may have been appropriate if the special needs requirements of these children was such that they would have been in discomfort of some form travelling in standard, and if their situation was apparent or the adults supervising made it clear. That said, if they were as rude to the TM as somebody has suggested, then the adults deserved a flea in their ear at the same time! - but obviously not the abuse they claim they were given (unlikely IMHO).

One would think though that if it was that necessary for the children to have a seat they would have booked seat reservations? If it was then found the reserved seats were occupied and the people occupying them were refusing to budge and there were no other free seats together, then an upgrade would be a reasonable request and I'm sure most train managers/guards would willingly offer it without having to be asked.
 
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BestWestern

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SteamPower:1539013 said:
One would think though that if it was that necessary for the children to have a seat they would have booked seat reservations? If it was then found the reserved seats were occupied and the people occupying them were refusing to budge and there were no other free seats together, then an upgrade would be a reasonable request and I'm sure most train managers/guards would willingly offer it without having to be asked.

I agree, but then we don't know how much experience the group has of travelling by rail, or on that particular service. The organisers may simply have presumed that an intercity train would have some empty seats, as indeed do many other infrequent users. Or they may have previously travelled and found ample space available and so expected the same this time.
 

voyagerdude220

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I must confess that I do get irked by the mentality that first class should become an overspill for standard on a busy train, the reason first has space available being the fact that it comes at a premium!

Very well said BestWestern! I was recently on a FGW HST from Reading to Cardiff a few Fridays ago. I noticed that coaches G and H were around 75% full, but coach F only had one other passenger in it, so I really enjoyed the very relaxing, quiet atmosphere of the carriage. That was until we departed Didcot Parkway, and the TM "kindly" decided to allow an extremely excitable, noisy group of around a dozen teenagers to sit in coach F. Consequently,I had to move to a far more crowded carriage. Other passengers in coach G commented that they could hear the noise coming from coach F, despite being so far away. I don't see the point of me paying for First Class, when Standard was half the price at the time of booking. I'd understand First Class being declassified, if Standard was exceptionally busy, but the group had exclusive use of the carriage, so it looks like the TM simply let them sit in First, so they could sit together.. Isn't that why we have seat reservations?

 
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