Nearest place from London to achieve 140mph

Bodie · 10 Oct 2013

Hello,

Firstly I hope my thread title is correct and the fastest you can travel by train in the UK is 140mph and that is on HS1 with Southeastern's 395 'Javelin'

I would like the travel on this class of train at that speed. How far must I go out of London to get a run at top speed?

Also am I right in thinking that there are no advance tickets to be had on HS1, so I am just as well buying my ticket on the day?

Thanks

Bodie

RailUK Forums

Essexman · 10 Oct 2013

I think you'll have to hope it's late to run at 140mph as they don't usually run at full line speed.

Domh245 · 10 Oct 2013

The Javelins will only run at 140 if they are running late, otherwise they will do about 125mph. As for advanced tickets. I was able to get some advance tickets for it when I went on HS1 as part of a longer journey (Manchester Piccadilly- Ashford International), but whether or not you can use an advance on it's own, I don't know.

Laryk · 10 Oct 2013

I'm not sure if it reaches 140mph in the Tunnel between St Pancras and Stratford Intl, but Ebsfleet Intl is how far you need to go to get 140mph outside.

Mojo · 10 Oct 2013

Essexman said:
I think you'll have to hope it's late to run at 140mph as they don't usually run at full line speed.

Domh245 said:
The Javelins will only run at 140 if they are running late, otherwise they will do about 125mph. As for advanced tickets. I was able to get some advance tickets for it when I went on HS1 as part of a longer journey (Manchester Piccadilly- Ashford International), but whether or not you can use an advance on it's own, I don't know.

I think this is just a rumour. I'm pretty confident that every train I've been on has gotten to 225km/h (~140mph) on HS1 and I use it a few times per month.

And no, Southeastern do not to Advance tickets. If you wish to use an Advance ticket on Highspeed it will have to be part of a longer journey.

YorkshireBear · 10 Oct 2013

Hasn't the 140 only when late been put down as a myth plenty of times? It seems pointless to only run at higher speed when late....

ainsworth74 · 10 Oct 2013

I seem to recall someone that worked around HS1 in some form or other (might have been for Eurostar) mentioned that the 395s have to run at 140mph or they'd get even more in the way of the Eurostar services.

YorkshireBear · 10 Oct 2013

ainsworth74 said:
I seem to recall someone that worked around HS1 in some form or other (might have been for Eurostar) mentioned that the 395s have to run at 140mph or they'd get even more in the way of the Eurostar services.

Didn't realise they got in the way at all?

It does beg the question when Eurostar get faster trains, (i presume in the future HS1 top speeds may be more than 186mph) and want to run more and DB start running, will 140mph be enough? Maybe SE franchise will need Classic Compatible stock similar to HS2.

starrymarkb · 10 Oct 2013

They won't attain it before the Stratford stop but IIRC the speedlimit rises to 230km/h 3km from St Pancras. (60km/h buffers to the Tunnel Portal - 200km/h Portal to PK:3 - 230km/h PK:3 - Ebbsfleet)

It was mentioned on here a couple of days ago that a Javelin will take about 9km to hit full speed from a standing start

Of course the fastest is a 373 at 300km/h (East of Ebbsfleet) but that will require entering France

LNW-GW Joint · 10 Oct 2013

Bodie said:
Hello,
Firstly I hope my thread title is correct and the fastest you can travel by train in the UK is 140mph and that is on HS1 with Southeastern's 395 'Javelin'

The way you put it is true for domestic trains, but you can always buy a Eurostar ticket and do the full 186mph on HS1 in Kent.

Clip · 10 Oct 2013

Mojo said:
I think this is just a rumour. I'm pretty confident that every train I've been on has gotten to 225km/h (~140mph) on HS1 and I use it a few times per month.

And no, Southeastern do not to Advance tickets. If you wish to use an Advance ticket on Highspeed it will have to be part of a longer journey.

I agree with this unless my gps when I am on it plays up..

ainsworth74 · 10 Oct 2013

YorkshireBear said:
Didn't realise they got in the way at all?

Perhaps 'getting in the way' was a bit strong, but I seem to recall that the guy mentioned that there was one section of HS1 where it wasn't uncommon to get a small speed check because of a slower 395 in front.

Bedpan · 11 Oct 2013

YorkshireBear said:
Hasn't the 140 only when late been put down as a myth plenty of times? It seems pointless to only run at higher speed when late....

On the other hand I'm wondering how much time Eurostars run at 186mph. IIRC the fastest train is timed at 2hrs 15 min for the 308 mile journey to Paris, which means an average speed of 137 mph. I know that the re's a speed restriction at each end, and under the Channel Tunnel, and through Lille, but without doing any maths, and off the top of my head, I'd have thought that it ought to be possible to do the journey without needing to exceed 155 or so mph.

YorkshireBear · 11 Oct 2013

Bedpan said:
On the other hand I'm wondering how much time Eurostars run at 186mph. IIRC the fastest train is timed at 2hrs 15 min for the 308 mile journey to Paris, which means an average speed of 137 mph. I know that the re's a speed restriction at each end, and under the Channel Tunnel, and through Lille, but without doing any maths, and off the top of my head, I'd have thought that it ought to be possible to do the journey without needing to exceed 155 or so mph.

That is a very high average speed, taking into account acceleration and deceleration i would say that is about 2/3 of the journey at least.

Bedpan · 11 Oct 2013

It would be interesting if somebody with a bit of time on their hands, and knowledge of the various speed restrictions and acceleration times, could work it out for us. It certainly doesn't feel to me as though the train is going that fast when I'm sitting on it, even when travelling alongside motorways.

On the other hand I know from experience what a detrimental effect a 10-15 minute journey to/from the motorway has on my average speed when I travel by car.

radamfi · 11 Oct 2013

It typically takes 6.25 minutes to do the 14.375 miles between Nashenden Crossover and Lenham Crossover, for example the 0640 from St Pancras this morning

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W42481/2013/10/11/advanced

That's an average of 138 mph.

eastwestdivide · 11 Oct 2013

Domh245 said:
The Javelins will only run at 140 if they are running late, otherwise they will do about 125mph. As for advanced tickets. I was able to get some advance tickets for it when I went on HS1 as part of a longer journey (Manchester Piccadilly- Ashford International), but whether or not you can use an advance on it's own, I don't know.

Again, just to add to the mythbusting, I've regularly GPS'd them at a consistent 138/139/140 across Rainham Marshes, and not when they were running late.

notadriver · 11 Oct 2013

My last post didn't go through properly. On departure from Stratford 140 is usually reached at the Wennington cross overs and the power is usually then shut off for Ebbsfleet.

For Eurostars there is a 270 kph limit at Ashford and of course 160 kph through the tunnel and 200 kph through Lille.

GlosRail · 11 Oct 2013

I travelled from Ebbsfleet to St Pancras on Wednesday afternoon this week, and I used a speed app on my phone to see what speed the train got up to. It recorded the speed at 138 mph. This was shortly after coming up from under the Thames.

bnm · 11 Oct 2013

On my last trip on a 395, I recorded 138/139/140 on my phone's GPS speed app. Both across the Rainham Marshes and between Ebbsfleet and Stratford.

paul1609 · 11 Oct 2013

In my experience the maximum that a 395 can claw back if it departs ashford late is under 30 secs before Ebbsfleet and the only way it will claw a minute back by St Pancras is by smart station work at Ebbsfleet and Stratford.
It is also surprising how much quicker the fast services in the peak that dont stop at Ebbsfleet seem!

Boysteve · 11 Oct 2013

Of Course, in 1989 you could only reach 140mph when travelling between Maxey and Stoke Summit on the ECML, although I don't think that happens anymore!

samuelmorris · 11 Oct 2013

I recorded around 134 I believe from exiting the london-end tunnel heading towards Ebbsfleet.

Peter Mugridge · 12 Oct 2013

Bedpan said:
On the other hand I'm wondering how much time Eurostars run at 186mph. IIRC the fastest train is timed at 2hrs 15 min for the 308 mile journey to Paris, which means an average speed of 137 mph. I know that the re's a speed restriction at each end, and under the Channel Tunnel, and through Lille, but without doing any maths, and off the top of my head, I'd have thought that it ought to be possible to do the journey without needing to exceed 155 or so mph.

There is quite a lot of sustained running at 180+ on the LGV Nord, but most of that is between Lille and Paris; on HS1 ( or the LGV Angleterre, as I like to call it, just to wind up the politicians! ) you will get 180+ between Ashford and Ebbsfleet, but only a minute or two normally.

Between Calais and Lille you would normally get 5 - 10 minutes at such speeds; this entire section appears to be the slowest part of the journey in either direction.

Between Lille and Paris the speed ranges up and down constantly between the high 150s and the full 180+ because of the way the TVM operates to maintain spacing between trains; it's a very good demonstration of the ripple effect and without GPS you wouldn't really notice the difference. After the restrictions through Lille and the triangle going towards Paris you'll usually reach full speed roughly where the Somme Canal is; deceleration for the end of the LGV Nord starts about 10 miles ( 16km ) before the conventional line is rejoined at about 100mph for the final 10 miles or so.

Ditto in reverse for the London bound services.

No two trips are the same as the LGV Nord is very busy, but if you can get a service with a good clear path at a quiet time of the day ( 12.25 from St Pancras is a good one; 20.13 from Nord is another ) then you have a good chance of getting 180+ for the vast majority of the way.

Death · 12 Oct 2013

My one trip so far on HS1 (On a Javelin running late out of St. Pancakes and thus first stop Ashford) has felt like 140mph, based on it feeling about 14mph or so faster than a Pendolino. However I didn't have GPS with me at the time to verify that.

Whatever we were doing through Stratford Intl. though, the airtime* we had going through the station was fantastic! \m/

(* - Ask any member of the RCCGB!

)

Peter Mugridge said:
No two trips are the same as the LGV Nord is very busy, but if you can get a service with a good clear path at a quiet time of the day ( 12.25 from St Pancras is a good one; 20.13 from Nord is another ) then you have a good chance of getting 180+ for the vast majority of the way.

Please say that the same thing applies to 9O28 (Deps STP at 13:31 weekdays) as well! <:D

radamfi · 12 Oct 2013

Are people here doing their measurements using a normal smartphone or something else, like a SatNav or a more specialised GPS unit? Is there any particular gadget that gives superior reception on trains that are difficult to pick up a signal on, like Pendolinos?

GlosRail · 12 Oct 2013

I used the speed view app which seems correct to within 1 mph. I downloaded it after seeing Top Gear using it during the car v train race to Italy last year.

There are plenty of times it can't pick up anything but when the signal works it's useful as a guide.

Eagle · 12 Oct 2013

Smartphone speed measurements don't need a network signal to work, they just need a GPS fix (which is a lot easier to pick up on Pendolinos and Voyagers than mobile signal).

And also the GPS receivers in phones are about the same quality as those in most satnavs, so I'd expect that they'd perform about the same.

HSTEd · 12 Oct 2013

Consumer GPS units are fairly accurate at the relatively low speeds that trains operate at, wouldnt adtvise using one on a plane though

Peter Mugridge · 12 Oct 2013

radamfi said:
Are people here doing their measurements using a normal smartphone or something else, like a SatNav or a more specialised GPS unit? Is there any particular gadget that gives superior reception on trains that are difficult to pick up a signal on, like Pendolinos?

Specialist GPS unit in my case - Holux 245; capable of working off reflected signals provided it has had a good direct signal fix first. It certainly gets a signal on a 390, by the way.

Death said:
Please say that the same thing applies to 9O28 (Deps STP at 13:31 weekdays) as well!

I'm afraid I haven't used that service myself, but I guess you're going to report back after your trip?

Err... isn't the Eurostar terminal SPI rather than STP or is that code only used by Eurostar themselves?

Nearest place from London to achieve 140mph

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