Signing routes

pooliemag · 12 Oct 2013

Not sure where to put this so mods please move if needed.
Please excuse my naivety on this subject but I am curious as to when a driver signs a route.....does this include all possible options from the mainline into ALL permitted platforms at each station? ie a train approaches a station that has say 8 platforms, 4up and 4 down, would the driver have to learn the route into each platform on the up journey and the same in reverse when returning??
I`m not sure I have explained this very well but I hope you get the gist of my question

RailUK Forums

flhh66555 · 12 Oct 2013

In a nut shell, YES. Everything on the route. Stations, Dead ends, Loops, signal routes (for the ones you dont want to take) speeds and in any eventuality any route you could be signalled. Especially important on multitrack lines stations and loops/yards.

ChiefPlanner · 12 Oct 2013

Generally - all routes , lines and (importantly) - "moves - i.e shunt movements"

pooliemag · 12 Oct 2013

Thanks guys for the quick replies

I did think as much....it must be a nightmare learning all the different possible routes into some of the major mainline stations and London termini (spelling?)

fsmr · 12 Oct 2013

Quite an interesting report released last month by the RAIB on a SPAD incident in 2012 at Stafford highlighting how lack of and falsified route knowledge and traction competence can lead to a serious incident or accident
worth reading the full report as it is a catalogue of errors in all areas but :

Paragraph 52 highlights the lack of route knowledge

http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/130916_R162013_Stafford.pdf

ChiefPlanner · 12 Oct 2013

I recall to learn all routes in and around Euston - from Queens Park inwards was 5 days !

(such are the complexities of the area - with 6 tracks in and a plethora of yards , junctions and 21 platforms etc)

DownSouth · 12 Oct 2013

Just out of curiosity, when there is new infrastructure how does the "first" route knowledge get learned by a senior driver before they can take on an instructor role for their colleagues?

How big are the differences between what happens for a minor infrastructure change - such as a new siding or a relocated signal - compared to a major project like a complete rebuild or a brand new line?

dk1 · 13 Oct 2013

There are often sidings or yards that you never go into if working for a passenger TOC. When running as ECS you can be put almost anywhere. In these rare cases I usually speak to the signaller who will talk you through any such moves.

34D · 13 Oct 2013

On LU, (and in general) if you have competency for a route, you are also allowed to drive on adjacent lines. So for example a District driver could travel on the fast (Piccadilly) lines from Hammersmith to Acton Town.

driver9000 · 13 Oct 2013

DownSouth said:
How big are the differences between what happens for a minor infrastructure change - such as a new siding or a relocated signal - compared to a major project like a complete rebuild or a brand new line?

A minor change would be detailed with an entry in the weekly notice. Major changes such as a resignalling project would be accompanied by a "Yellow peril" signalling notice which includes a diagram of the work and possibly a brief with a manager. If a line has remained open during the installation of new equipment it's possible that drivers will have an idea of the work done on the ground before the changeover.

Matt Taylor · 13 Oct 2013

Each location can be different, SWT crews sign Basingstoke station and platform one appears on our route packs but we do not get tested on platform one so I'm not really sure that it counts as part of our route knowledge. I also don't sign the Southern side of Clapham Junction or the LO platforms.

david_VI · 13 Oct 2013

Heres my naivety

What does it even mean to 'sign' a route? Literately sign something to say you are trained and willing to do these routes?

KA4C · 13 Oct 2013

david_VI said:
Heres my naivety

What does it even mean to 'sign' a route? Literately sign something to say you are trained and willing to do these routes?

Basically yes, signature on a route card, countersigned by the manager

A-driver · 13 Oct 2013

On new routes, such as the recently opened Hitchin flyover, they sent all the instructor drivers over by foot. Sometimes they may use CGI videos (like they did for kings x platform 0) or they send a train over it with a driver manager and video camera.

In the case of the Hitchin flyover the DIs walked it and then drivers are being released for a day to go through a brief and then travel round with a DI or other driver who signs it in a cab. Obviously the first few trains were a bit experimental in terms if braking points, driving to gradients etc.

As for large stations, how much of it you sign depends on the routes you sign either side. So when I signed clapham junction I only signed 4 platforms-the up/down Brighton fast & up/ down Brighton slow. I didn't sign any western platforms or the WLL platforms, although we were told we were permitted into the WLL platform itself in an emergency but no further. The same was applied to London bridge and Victoria where southern drivers only sign plat 8+ at London bridge and 8-19 at Vic (although I was told we could use 6-7 in an emergency).

Same applies to shunts and sidings. Some areas you sign everything whilst others you only sign certain moves ( at Peterbourgh all FCC drivers sign the western side shunts so the down fast north of the station and the shunt over on the goods/Stamford lines. Only Peterbourgh based drivers sign the shunts at eastfields yard though (although that's rumoured to be changing soon as they may be sending most of the nene empties via eastfields).

The Planner · 13 Oct 2013

DownSouth said:
How big are the differences between what happens for a minor infrastructure change - such as a new siding or a relocated signal - compared to a major project like a complete rebuild or a brand new line?

Quite often now with major resignalling jobs a DVD is produced of a cab ride with the new signals graphically reproduced on top.

A company called TrackAccess are pretty good. They have a few very short videos on YouTube Here

A York to Manchester one is also up there Here

Is there a way of embedding YT videos on here? the [YT] [/YT] method doesn't seem to work for me.

fsmr · 13 Oct 2013

The Planner said:
Quite often now with major resignalling jobs a DVD is produced of a cab ride with the new signals graphically reproduced on top.

A company called TrackAccess are pretty good. They have a few very short videos on YouTube Here

A York to Manchester one is also up there Here

Is there a way of embedding YT videos on here? the [YT] [/YT] method doesn't seem to work for me.

Hi You need to put the youtube in both the brackets where you put YT then put the code for the video in this case lbpdx1xmMYs in between
Always strip out the first bit including the = sign from the code
hope that helps, video embedded below
Nige

[youtube]lbpdx1xmMYs[/youtube]

A-driver · 13 Oct 2013

When they re signalled the Hertford branch as bi-di they came up with a very interesting idea-they videoed a trip in the back cab, ran it in reverse and superimposed signals in what looked like the pre-installed painting programme you got with windows 95. They did the same with the PRIs for the Hitchin flyover videos (plus they choose a narrator for that video who can't pronounce his "R's" which caused much hilarity every time he mentions 'woutes', 'P-our-wise indicator' or 'peterbouwa' and 'cambwidge'

dk1 · 13 Oct 2013

The Planner said:
Quite often now with major resignalling jobs a DVD is produced of a cab ride with the new signals graphically reproduced on top.

A company called TrackAccess are pretty good. They have a few very short videos on YouTube Here

A York to Manchester one is also up there Here

Is there a way of embedding YT videos on here? the [YT] [/YT] method doesn't seem to work for me.

Slight re-signalling & a copy of a DVD to watch at our leisure & a Free Day Worked is added to the payslip. Lovely Jubbly

1e10 · 13 Oct 2013

KA4C said:
Basically yes, signature on a route card, countersigned by the manager

Could a driver sign a card to say they are familiar with that route and then work over that routes and providing they didn't have any problems, get away with it?

fsmr · 13 Oct 2013

1e10 said:
Could a driver sign a card to say they are familiar with that route and then work over that routes and providing they didn't have any problems, get away with it?

Again have a read here and the answer is technically yes although there will be a lot more focus I suspect after this report para 52 on deals with lack of route knowledge
http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/130916_R162013_Stafford.pdf

dk1 · 13 Oct 2013

1e10 said:
Could a driver sign a card to say they are familiar with that route and then work over that routes and providing they didn't have any problems, get away with it?

Basically yes. Not many actually do the asigned number of route learning days. Its all yours if you do something wrong though.

KA4C · 14 Oct 2013

dk1 said:
Basically yes. Not many actually do the asigned number of route learning days. Its all yours if you do something wrong though.

Depends if they can pass the route assessment or not. doesn't it
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1e10 said:
Could a driver sign a card to say they are familiar with that route and then work over that routes and providing they didn't have any problems, get away with it?

Only if they are bonkers

dk1 · 14 Oct 2013

KA4C said:
Depends if they can pass the route assessment or not. doesn't it
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Only if they are bonkers

Usually get given the assessment to look at before the day. They then go see other drivers to get the answers.

A-driver · 14 Oct 2013

dk1 said:
Usually get given the assessment to look at before the day. They then go see other drivers to get the answers.

Why on earth would they do that? Ok I know a few road tickets get slightly exaggerated-do 2 trips in a day and then write that you have done 3 or get off at you home station which happens to be on that line so a few trips are not complete but I don't know anyone who will seriously cheat like you seem to be implying!

The questions on the assessments should be comprehensive enough that if you can get all the answers correct-through asking other drivers or from footplate trips-you should know enough to drive over the route but I can't see why any driver would be stupid enough to risk their job and possibly life by not doing enough trips. Have a serious incident which leads them to believe you haven't learnt the route fully and you could be sacked and if serious enough face prosecution.

Plus the written/verbal test is only part of signing a road- a DM or DI should pick up on a lack of knowledge when they do the ride out with you prior to signing the road.

ainsworth74 · 14 Oct 2013

A-driver said:
but I can't see why any driver would be stupid enough to risk their job and possibly life by not doing enough trips.

A question that should perhaps be directed to the driver of the 47 that SPAD'd at Stafford the report of which was recently published...

hello · 14 Oct 2013

ainsworth74 said:
A question that should perhaps be directed to the driver of the 47 that SPAD'd at Stafford the report of which was recently published...

he wasnt a driver, only on the north yorkshire mores railway, and i dont think counts really

A-driver · 14 Oct 2013

ainsworth74 said:
A question that should perhaps be directed to the driver of the 47 that SPAD'd at Stafford the report of which was recently published...

I don't think he deliberately didn't bother to road learn due to laziness but I believe his employer got him to sign roads without the proper training. A big difference from what is being discussed here.

dk1 · 14 Oct 2013

A-driver said:
Why on earth would they do that? Ok I know a few road tickets get slightly exaggerated-do 2 trips in a day and then write that you have done 3 or get off at you home station which happens to be on that line so a few trips are not complete but I don't know anyone who will seriously cheat like you seem to be implying!

The questions on the assessments should be comprehensive enough that if you can get all the answers correct-through asking other drivers or from footplate trips-you should know enough to drive over the route but I can't see why any driver would be stupid enough to risk their job and possibly life by not doing enough trips. Have a serious incident which leads them to believe you haven't learnt the route fully and you could be sacked and if serious enough face prosecution.

Plus the written/verbal test is only part of signing a road- a DM or DI should pick up on a lack of knowledge when they do the ride out with you prior to signing the road.

Just speaking from day in day out experience.

A-driver · 14 Oct 2013

dk1 said:
Just speaking from day in day out experience.

Well so am I! As I say, I know many drivers, including myself, who have exaggerated the number of trips after they have done enough to satisfactorily know the road but I have never come across anyone who would be stupid enough to not even do the bare minimum, just cheat their way through the written paper and then sign the route.

I don't believe anyone could get away with it anyway as how do they fool a DM into believing they know a road when they do the rude out?

dk1 · 14 Oct 2013

A-driver said:
Well so am I! As I say, I know many drivers, including myself, who have exaggerated the number of trips after they have done enough to satisfactorily know the road but I have never come across anyone who would be stupid enough to not even do the bare minimum, just cheat their way through the written paper and then sign the route.

I don't believe anyone could get away with it anyway as how do they fool a DM into believing they know a road when they do the rude out?

I didn't said they never go out road learning. I said we always get the question paper before the assessment. They get other drivers to help them with some of the answers.

Signing routes

Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member