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Card Declined, Got UPFN'd

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Wikipedia

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Hi all,

Never really wanted to have to post in here but oh well!!

I boarded the 0632 Appleby (APP) - 0809 Keighley (KEI) this morning without a ticket due to the unstaffed nature of APP at that time of morning and the guard proceeded towards me (only pax to board at APP) to sell me a ticket which I intended to pay by card (VISA Debit) for as I have done before however it was declined and therefore (correctly I know. No cash on me!) I was issued a UPFN for £23.40 (Full fare return) if my card had gone through I should have been charged £15.45 (I have a Y-P Railcard). All exchanges were polite between me and the guard.

My question is would I be able to appeal that because it isn't my fault my payment was not accepted (I had enough to pay 20 times over before anyone asks!!) that I should only be liable for £15.45 not £23.40?

Look forward to replies!
 
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Hi all,

Never really wanted to have to post in here but oh well!!

I boarded the 0632 Appleby (APP) - 0809 Keighley (KEI) this morning without a ticket due to the unstaffed nature of APP at that time of morning and the guard proceeded towards me (only pax to board at APP) to sell me a ticket which I intended to pay by card (VISA Debit) for as I have done before however it was declined and therefore (correctly I know. No cash on me!) I was issued a UPFN for £23.40 (Full fare return) if my card had gone through I should have been charged £15.45 (I have a Y-P Railcard). All exchanges were polite between me and the guard.

My question is would I be able to appeal that because it isn't my fault my payment was not accepted (I had enough to pay 20 times over before anyone asks!!) that I should only be liable for £15.45 not £23.40?

Look forward to replies!

Well the problem with on train card transactions is that the TOC's have not put sim cards into the Chip and Pin machines so there is no other way to contact the bank to receive an authorization for your transaction. A lot of debit cards require an authorization, and therefore the machine will decline your card. An annoying situation for on train member of staff trying to collect your fare and the embarrassment for the customer who is told their card is declined in a densely packed environment. Its the same with most TOC's. Laughable situation as lots and lots of people day in and day out are abusing this loophole and giving fake addresses.

Explain all the circumstances in your appeal. Afterall you were willing to pay and not trying to dodge the fare.
 

sonic2009

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Who do you bank with? As this may have a bearing on why you were declined on the train.
 

Flamingo

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Contact the TOC & explain, offering the correct fare. The guard could have used discretion and done the UFN for the YP fare.
 

Monty

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Swiping chip cards is strictly not allowed and the bank can refuse to pay if a chip card is swiped.

Can't speak for other TOCs but SWT have instructed their guards and revenue staff that any transaction under £10 can be manually swiped. Anything over that amount you can call a number and request authorisation (last time I did it was HSBC merchant services who handled it) to swipe it and note down a reference number.
 

gunn13

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You can swipe chip cards if they decline but you must call for an authorisation code, and enter the code into the avantix screen. Without the authorisation code the bank will not pay.
HSBC are who I contact 90% of the time. Occasionally it is Barclays merchant services I call for certain barclaycards and Lloyd tsb cards.
If they decline to authorise it I just do a TI. Only once have the authorisation service ever instructed me to retain a card.
 

sheff1

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Contact the TOC & explain, offering the correct fare. The guard could have used discretion and done the UFN for the YP fare.

I glad you said that as what the OP described doesn't sound reasonable to me. I always pay with a credit card (so assume the swipe etc issues don't apply?) but would be most put out if a guard did not apply my railcard discount to an UPFN if the card was declined.
 

Flamingo

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It depends on whether the declined was by the chip&pin (everything else ok), or if they got the pin wrong or it was declined by their bank after a call. If wrong pin or declined by bank, any UFN would be for the full amount and only as far as the next manned station, as I would consider this to be an attempt at fraud.

I'm surprised the guard did a UFN in this case, as unless it is an area of poor reception, it would have been as quick to ring for authorisation as to fill in a UFN.
 

Wikipedia

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Who do you bank with? As this may have a bearing on why you were declined on the train.

I bank with the local building society!


It depends on whether the declined was by the chip&pin (everything else ok), or if they got the pin wrong or it was declined by their bank after a call. If wrong pin or declined by bank, any UFN would be for the full amount and only as far as the next manned station, as I would consider this to be an attempt at fraud.

I'm surprised the guard did a UFN in this case, as unless it is an area of poor reception, it would have been as quick to ring for authorisation as to fill in a UFN.

Pin was definitely correct because I looked at it as typing! Also the building society hours are 9-5 only (for calls anyway)!!
 

SussexMan

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Also the building society hours are 9-5 only (for calls anyway)!!

There'll be a 24hr number to call. They don't ring your local branch. Same as if you lost your card at the weekend - you don't have to wait until Monday morning to call them.
 

Wikipedia

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There'll be a 24hr number to call. They don't ring your local branch. Same as if you lost your card at the weekend - you don't have to wait until Monday morning to call them.

He never even mentioned the thought! I had enough signal for a call even if he didn't (He never checked his)
 

High Dyke

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Just spoken to the Mem (a guard on a different TOC to the OP). The guard on the service should've applied the discount. Her exact words were: "He's (the guard) being an a**ehole."

I hope the OP gets the matter resolved properly.
 

tsr

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Where needed, SET can also swipe cards for low-value transactions without calling for authorisation. FGW also do so at their onboard buffets, although I appreciate this situation is somewhat different!
 

Wikipedia

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Cheers for all comments. I am going to call on Wednesday (first free day) and see what I can do! Unless anyone has any better ideas!
 

Flamingo

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Write in before then with copy of the UFN. The clock is ticking, and you might end up with admin charges which will only complicate the issue.
 

reb0118

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I have a feeling Northern's policy is not to swipe but to issue an unpaid fares notice [UPN]. AFAIA an UPN should only be issued as a single fare and again only for as far as the train runs. I.e. you can can't issue one for another train or indeed another TOC. Exceptions may occur.

Certain members of staff seem very reluctant to swipe cards now under any circumstances - whether this is due to standing orders or lack of knowledge of how to obtain a pre authorisation number.
 

yorkie

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Northern do return UFNs.

Clearly there's no way the UFN should be for anything more than the appropriate fare.

I am not surprised at this behaviour by Northern though, they're doing their best to put off customers!
 

Anvil1984

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Just as a point Northern conductors cannot swipe after a card is declined, we have a modification on our machines that if a card declines and you try to swipe it it won't allow it. We have unofficial workarounds for it but its been changed for a reason and if it declines then we're in for it. We don't have a authorisation helpline like other TOCs so saying someone from another TOC said he was just being a ..... is not helpful they have their rules, Northern has others.

That being said I do agree that the discount should have been applied on this occasion as Appleby doesnt seem to have any ticket machines even of the card only type
 
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yorkie

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Appeal? You mean ask for a partial refund? As I said earlier, my recommendation would be to send payment of the appropriate fare, and nothing more.
 

323235

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Just as a point Northern conductors cannot swipe after a card is declined, we have a modification on our machines that if a card declines and you try to swipe it it won't allow it. We have unofficial workarounds for it but its been changed for a reason and if it declines then we're in for it. We don't have a authorisation helpline like other TOCs so saying someone from another TOC said he was just being a ..... is not helpful they have their rules, Northern has others.

That being said I do agree that the discount should have been applied on this occasion as Appleby doesnt seem to have any ticket machines even of the card only type
ah so that's why I saw a northern guard today swipe a different card than the one that declined, for a passenger travelling from a staffed station, when ticket checked mid way through a 40 minute journey today.

I did wonder as I've always seen them swipe the same card and I have seen northern guards swipe a lot of cards.
 
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Anvil1984

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Some Northern guards will take the risk on small fares especially if they see a card type that they will know will decline. Green Lloyds TSB, Silver HSBC and back when contactless cards were brand new they were a bugger too.

However its not policy and if they swipe it without going the chip and pin route first it can cause issues for them. And now the Avantix won't allow a swipe after a decline in the chip and pin (without some jiggery-pokery) iits becoming less common
 
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