New to rail industry Union help

Tom C · 15 Oct 2013

Or a sensible principle derived from refusing to be part of an outfit which (tacitly if not outright) encourages in-work bullying, singling out of non correct union members and enjoys the hypocrisy of calling for a workers' revolution whilst at the same time pay their leaders six-figure packages.

Well I was a union representative for 8 years and certainly did not condone that sort of behaviour, nor did I see it in other grades or companies. If that is in your workplace then you have my sympathies.

1. A colleague of mine (Guard) left the RMT for various reasons to join ATCU. The response of men who for years had been his friends and colleagues was downright disgusting. He would walk into the mess room, whilst his colleagues would either get up and walk out, or be simply downright rude to him (he would say good morning and they would continue talking amongst themselves or tell him to f*** off). I do not want to be part of any organisation who encourages or even merely accepts this type of appalling schoolboy-like bullying.

Sounds like a problem with morons acting like that more than the union condoning or encouraging that sort of behaviour. What makes you think that the union "accepts" that type of behaviour? I knew a lot of union officials and representatives from across the country, the different unions and grades and I cannot recall anyone thinking that was acceptable so I am afraid is sounds like a problem in your messroom that a norm

RailUK Forums

455driver · 15 Oct 2013

Shaggy said:
Or you could (like a growing number of us in the industry) eschew the bullying and class-war nonsense (let alone the very high union dues) of the main unions and just don't join.

No doubt you are quick to accept the pay rise the 'nasty' union negotiates for you every year though! :roll:

Being in a recognised union is like an insurance policy, you hope you never need it but its there when you do.

We have a name for people that moan about the expensive unions but are happy to accept all the good work they do on the members (and non members) behalf but I dont want to be banned.

Flamingo · 15 Oct 2013

The union negotiates a pay rise for it's members, and others in the same grade. If it wishes to negotiate for it's members only, then it would also need to accept if others wished to negotiate as a group - the current rail unions block this happening. The argument that "you should give back the pay rise the union negotiated for you" would only hold any weight if the union did not use its muscle to prevent others from negociating.

Anyway, in FGW, the record of the RMT negotiating for guards is not exactly a shining example to hold up - the harmonisation agreement that the RMT Divisional Council were trumpeting to it's members was the best thing since the last best thing sold a lot of terms and conditions down the river for very little return.

Union membership is necessary from the point of view of individual protection. I stand by my earlier post that the RMT would haemorrhage members if any alternative to them was available that provided this.

SkinnyDave · 15 Oct 2013

Hi Flamingo
Can I play devils advocate and ask Is it not the responsibility of disgruntled members to make an alternative union more viable rather than settling for status quo?

Captain Chaos · 15 Oct 2013

Flamingo said:
Anyway, in FGW, the record of the RMT negotiating for guards is not exactly a shining example to hold up - the harmonisation agreement that the RMT Divisional Council were trumpeting to it's members was the best thing since the last best thing sold a lot of terms and conditions down the river for very little return.

I don't wish to say anything that will land me in any hot water. So I will just say I agree with this statement and leave it at that.

Tom C · 15 Oct 2013

Hi Flamingo
Can I play devils advocate and ask Is it not the responsibility of disgruntled members to make an alternative union more viable rather than settling for status quo?

No

Its for members to attend branch meetings and change the union from within as no union is anything without its members

Its not to divide the workforce further.

cookiescrumble · 15 Oct 2013

A-driver said:
What job are you in out of interest? Are you on the railway? If so do you still accept union negotiated pay rises which your union colleagues have effectively funded for you with their subscriptions?

I'm a Rail Operator for SWT as my user title suggests and have worked for the company since Jan 2012. And yes, I will happily accept the pay rise that is 'funded' by my colleagues ...

142094 · 15 Oct 2013

Join as soon as you can. You never know what may happen tomorrow.

455driver · 15 Oct 2013

cookiescrumble said:
I'm a Rail Operator for SWT as my user title suggests and have worked for the company since Jan 2012. And yes, I will happily accept the pay rise that is 'funded' by my colleagues ...

And when you have an <oops> moment and you are out the door I am sure they will send you a nice card! :lol:

AnonymousUser1 · 15 Oct 2013

Flamingo said:
<snip>
Union membership is necessary from the point of view of individual protection. I stand by my earlier post that the RMT would haemorrhage members if any alternative to them was available that provided this.

ask the Unison health branch types about the steady flow of HCAs from Unison to the RCN when the RCN opened membership to HCAs ( in addition to it;s traditional membership of Registered Nurses)

Flamingo · 15 Oct 2013

Tom C said:
No

Its for members to attend branch meetings and change the union from within as no union is anything without its members

Its not to divide the workforce further.

From observation, trying to change the RMT from within would be damn-near impossible. It's far from being a democracy, and it's procedures are designed to maintain the status quo and hierarchy.

I've had this argument put to me before -it's a bit of a cop out, in my opinion. It's akin to saying if you don't like the policies of a political party, join it to change them. I don't fancy joining the Conservative Party because I disagree with them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

SkinnyDave said:
Hi Flamingo
Can I play devils advocate and ask Is it not the responsibility of disgruntled members to make an alternative union more viable rather than settling for status quo?

It's a hard call, at the moment the RMT is the only game in town for my grade, I view the subs as an insurance policy for the SHTF situations. The RMT have not yet put me in a position where they have asked me to support the indefensible (unlike staff in other depots) - when they do, I may review my position. I give them a few hundred pounds a year - I don't feel any obligation to give up time as well.

It's not something that troubles me much, I go to work & come home, I'm not spending more time away from the family than I have to.

Tom C · 15 Oct 2013

From observation, trying to change the RMT from within would be damn-near impossible. It's far from being a democracy, and it's procedures are designed to maintain the status quo and hierarchy.

I've had this argument put to me before -it's a bit of a cop out, in my opinion. It's akin to saying if you don't like the policies of a political party, join it to change them. I don't fancy joining the Conservative Party because I disagree with them.

Its anything but a cop out.

Realistically at your depot what percentage of guards do you think are union members? 70-80%? How many of them go to their local branch every month? Because its from there that resolutions are put to the hierarchy when issues are affecting members within the branch but of course if no resolutions are put forward because only 5-10 members attend the branch each month (generally from Network Rail from my experience) then how to you expect to change the union from within?

What you are left with is a railway full of messroom generals. Lots of guys with opinions but an equal number who won't do anything about it!

AlexS · 15 Oct 2013

My local RMT is to be honest, crap. I am a member but very few of my colleagues are (despite being in a front line stations grade) because you hear very little from the union - in fact it's pretty much a taxi drivers union at our branch. We have a newish local rep so it remains to be seen what will happen but I'm not confident. I can honestly say I have never received any communication at all from the local branch.

Tom C · 15 Oct 2013

There are frustrating things with the RMT don't get me wrong and what Alex has just said is one of them!. Obviously, a new rep being installed is a good thing but the union needs to promote its system and promote what and where it does what it does.

The funny thing is it is not unique. When I went into the booking office I was a member of the TSSA and they were worse! I never met the local rep, I never received any correspondence and when things affecting CO's were in the pipeline, it was the RMT who made all the running.

Smudger105e · 15 Oct 2013

I agree. I went to a branch meeting, 200 members of the branch and there was the chairman, Secretary and me there

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk 2

DarloRich · 15 Oct 2013

Shaggy said:
Or you could (like a growing number of us in the industry) eschew the bullying and class-war nonsense (let alone the very high union dues) of the main unions and just don't join.

If you feel you must join a union then I'd recommend ACTU - http://www.atcu.org.uk/index.html - although be prepared to be mocked, bullied and intimidated by other staff who hate the fact that the main unions' oligopoly has been challenged.

what total and utter rubbish written by some one with not the first iota of understanding of union activities or even the purpose of a Trades Union.

I certainly do not, and will not, harass anyone for not wanting to join or for wanting to leave the union i am a member of.Conversely my door is always open to anyone with an issue regardless of membership status at that point time.

Shaggy said:
Or a sensible principle derived from refusing to be part of an outfit which (tacitly if not outright) encourages in-work bullying, singling out of non correct union members and enjoys the hypocrisy of calling for a workers' revolution whilst at the same time pay their leaders six-figure packages.

On a more agreeable level, you're either a union member or not. The last thing I'd do is go crawling to one of the main unions for assistance after refusing to go along with their nonsense in the first place.

I assume you have (as i have) self funded an unfair dismissal claim? I am sure you have an understanding of the costs and charges involved in such an action and have set aside suitable resources to fight such an action.

Furthermore i have never and will never bully anyone and i take issue with your suggestion that that is even a tacit policy of any union. It is certainly NOT the policy of my union. I also doubt my union pay many 6 figure salaries to anyone!

Shaggy · 15 Oct 2013

DarloRich said:
what total and utter rubbish written by some one with not the first iota of understanding of union activities or even the purpose of a Trades Union.

I certainly do not, and will not, harass anyone for not wanting to join or for wanting to leave the union i am a member of.Conversely my door is always open to anyone with an issue regardless of membership status at that point time.

I assume you have (as i have) self funded an unfair dismissal claim? I am sure you have an understanding of the costs and charges involved in such an action and have set aside suitable resources to fight such an action.

Furthermore i have never and will never bully anyone and i take issue with your suggestion that that is even a tacit policy of any union. It is certainly NOT the policy of my union. I also doubt my union pay many 6 figure salaries to anyone!

I look forward then to the main unions issuing policy statements (perhaps they have and they're just being ignored) that non and former members should not be discriminated against by any method then. I hold to what happened to my friend in his depot. What happened (and still goes on) was outrageous and for that to go on without any criticism from the union is indefensible. It may not be representative across the board but it still happens.

As it happens I have self funded an unfair dismissal claim. It was worth it and I would do so again.

I never said they pay 6 figure salaries. I said six-figure salary packages. Perhaps a better phrase would have been 'total renumeration' as per this link - http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/tradeunionrichlist0611.pdf

A-driver · 15 Oct 2013

Shaggy said:
I look forward then to the main unions issuing policy statements (perhaps they have and they're just being ignored) that non and former members should not be discriminated against by any method then. I hold to what happened to my friend in his depot. What happened (and still goes on) was outrageous and for that to go on without any criticism from the union is indefensible. It may not be representative across the board but it still happens.

As it happens I have self funded an unfair dismissal claim. It was worth it and I would do so again.

I never said they pay 6 figure salaries. I said six-figure salary packages. Perhaps a better phrase would have been 'total renumeration' as per this link - http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/tradeunionrichlist0611.pdf

Unfortunately until we know exactly what happened with your mate it's pretty meaningless. As I say, I highly doubt anyone turned their back on him purely for leaving the union. As has been said-If they did then that says more about that depot than it does about any unions.

I'm pretty certain that there is a lot more to it than that.

455driver · 15 Oct 2013

A-driver said:
I'm pretty certain that there is a lot more to it than that.

my thoughts exactly!

At my place I wouldnt have a clue who was in which union (if any) although I do know 2 who are in ATCU because they are always banging on about it

but other than that I couldnt care less.

There is much more to this than we are being told.

Shaggy · 15 Oct 2013

A-driver said:
Unfortunately until we know exactly what happened with your mate it's pretty meaningless. As I say, I highly doubt anyone turned their back on him purely for leaving the union. As has been said-If they did then that says more about that depot than it does about any unions.

I'm pretty certain that there is a lot more to it than that.

Fair point. As far as everyone else is concerned it's purely anecdotal so I appreciate that.

I was shocked but I think it was exacerbated by being at a particular depot. Just not something I want to be part of for the above reasons.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

455driver said:
my thoughts exactly!

At my place I wouldnt have a clue who was in which union (if any) although I do know 2 who are in ATCU because they are always banging on about it but other than that I couldnt care less.

There is much more to this than we are being told.

There really isn't. However there's no way I can prove that so we'll leave it at that.

455driver · 15 Oct 2013

Shaggy said:
Just not something I want to be part of for the above reasons.

I have never worked at any place like that (rail or bus).

Clip · 15 Oct 2013

Flamingo said:
You need to join a union for the protection, be it from managers with an agenda, or passengers with a grudge, or colleagues trying to stitch you up,Including those in the union wondering why you dont want to join the union

From conversation with other staff, I think if there was a realistic alternative to the RMT that at least half the staff would join it. The RMT is way too loony left in it's politics and view for a lot of it's members, and it's only the work on the ground by some reps that keeps people in. I'd say most members are in the RMT despite, rather than because, of it's stance on a lot of issues.

When the ACTU hits a critical mass, it's going to get very interesting...

What you say about the RMT is very true round here too - a lot of my staff really dont seem to like to be with them but they have no choice, for some reason they think TSSA is even worse!

DarloRich · 15 Oct 2013

Shaggy said:
I look forward then to the main unions issuing policy statements (perhaps they have and they're just being ignored) that non and former members should not be discriminated against by any method then. I hold to what happened to my friend in his depot. What happened (and still goes on) was outrageous and for that to go on without any criticism from the union is indefensible. It may not be representative across the board but it still happens.

As it happens I have self funded an unfair dismissal claim. It was worth it and I would do so again.

I never said they pay 6 figure salaries. I said six-figure salary packages. Perhaps a better phrase would have been 'total renumeration' as per this link - http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/tradeunionrichlist0611.pdf

I have never seen that happen and it wont happen near me. As for the tax payers alliance :roll::roll::roll:

(again my union doesn't appear to pay 6 figure "Total Remuneration" packages either)

My point remains that anyone is free to join (or not join!) a union. It is their decision. I can offer them the opportunity, explain the benefits and let them choose. The offer is always there. I consider them an essential insurance policy for bad times. You may hold a different view.

the sniper · 16 Oct 2013

I must be honest, I'd never even heard of the ATCU before this thread. :oops:

Flamingo · 16 Oct 2013

Tom C said:
Its anything but a cop out.

Realistically at your depot what percentage of guards do you think are union members? 70-80%? How many of them go to their local branch every month? Because its from there that resolutions are put to the hierarchy when issues are affecting members within the branch but of course if no resolutions are put forward because only 5-10 members attend the branch each month (generally from Network Rail from my experience) then how to you expect to change the union from within?

What you are left with is a railway full of messroom generals. Lots of guys with opinions but an equal number who won't do anything about it!

I will agree that the membership do themselves no favours by not getting involved, a recent strike ballot I am aware of is a case in point, where the abstentions would have made the difference, and most of them were against the strike (listening to messroom gossip) but allowed themselves to be railroaded (no pun intended) into a strike by not bothering to vote.

As regards the directiion of the union, I see it as being in the hands of a very small clique that do not admit outsiders. This hierarchy itself comes from people put forward by branches, not an election from members as a whole. This means that the executative is composed of members that are put forward by a very small and vocal part of the union. Given the loony stance of the union on a lot of issues, the more moderate members are discouraged from turning up to the meetings, so the only ones attending are the vocal fringe, who then nominate and vote for their pals.

If the membership as a whole were given a real voice and there was near 100% turn-out, the RMT executative would crap themselves.

sarahj · 16 Oct 2013

Strange what you say went on at your branch Flamingo. At our branch there was going to be a dispute vote on a subject, but informal talks with the staff led to the view that support, there would be none. So the dispute has been dropped.
When I joined over 6 years ago some of the union reps had been there a while, with what that entails. But we had some new blood, and things have changed. A lot more info on the local branch and goings on. I've even been to a few meetings, and yes I have met Bob.

As to the OP. Find out who is the main union for your job and join up. You need the protection on the off chance, TSHTF. TBH the fee is not that high, is based on how much you earn. And what will you save if you dont join, a few pints a month worth of cash.

Casey Jones125 · 16 Oct 2013

We have a name for people that moan about the expensive unions but are happy to accept all the good work they do on the members (and non members) behalf but I dont want to be banned.

Is the above bullying or just banter?

Smudger105e · 16 Oct 2013

This has turned into a bit of a union bashing thread.

The OP asked if he should join a TU. It is up to him to now decide, given the conflicting opinions in this thread.

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk 2

Casey Jones125 · 16 Oct 2013

455driver said:
No doubt you are quick to accept the pay rise the 'nasty' union negotiates for you every year though! :roll:

Being in a recognised union is like an insurance policy, you hope you never need it but its there when you do.

We have a name for people that moan about the expensive unions but are happy to accept all the good work they do on the members (and non members) behalf but I dont want to be banned.

Sounds like bullying to me! 'we have a name for people that moan'

unbelievable

A-driver · 16 Oct 2013

Casey Jones125 said:
Sounds like bullying to me! 'we have a name for people that moan'

unbelievable

Well firstly well done for answering your own question!

Secondly, it's not bullying, when the majority are paying into a union who I turn negotiate pay rises that all happily accept and also pay for things like messroom tv, sky box, DVD, coffee machine, comfy chairs etc then it's a little unfair for one or two to decide not to pay towards all that whilst still enjoying the benefits.

Sorry but there is no reason not to join a union. The very things pulling most drivers into the grade are things which the unions have negotiated for over the years. People opting out of the unions are dangerous as if enough people do it the unions will loose all power. Think what you will of unions but all it will lead to is more work for less pay. And then the very people who haven't joined the union will complain that the job had got so bad.

If you have political reasons not to join then you can politically opt out. Every member also has the opportunity to attend branch meeting every month and put their views across.

Not bullying.

New to rail industry Union help

Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member