Tyne and Wear Metro

142094 said:

Yes, there is a limit of shunt board at the Heworth end of platform 1 which authorises movements from the sidings to the platform.

I still don't think that there is any real justification to having sets stabled at Pelaw overnight. It would be far easier and more practical to have earlier out of service trains running from the depot to South Shields or South Hylton.

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Thought there was.

If I recall correctly Metro said there would be a train earlier but trains aren't allowed out of the depot until a certain time because of overnight engineering works. By the time the first train gets to South Shields it is roughly 0535 if it leaves the depot at 0500. Allowing train to stable at Pelaw would allow for much more flexibility come the AM services. Would be nice for Huw to give comment, although when I asked on the Nexus Forums it was deleted.

Some work is done on the system during the night, mainly station cleaning, graffiti clearance etc. Most heavy engineering is done during weekend possessions and blockades. After the All Change programme it certainly should be possible to have earlier trains, but perhaps limited to Mon-Fri.

Huw Lewis of Nexus writes:

"The benefits of stabling cars away from the main depot at Gosforth is to provide an earlier/later start/finish to service than there is now, presuming we would always need the period between 1am and 5am for maintenance. As such the maximum benefit if Metro were to do it would be achieved from cars being at South Shields or South Hylton/Sunderland.

We feel this would need to be supported by a mini depot where cars could be kept and maintained securely, rather than them being parked up in stations or sidings. Apart from the capital investment there would be an increased revenue cost to having more than one depot so the benefits would have to be compelling.

The current start time for trains are 05:45 at South Shields and 05:50 at Park Lane, which is already quite early and its difficult to see how much additional demand there would be before these times.

The current last trains from Central are 23:20 (to Sunderland), 23:27 (to South Shields) and 23:45 (Pelaw) and it would be good to push these back 30-40 minutes, though conversely the fact trains return to Gosforth means they run later from South Shields and Sunderland (23:56 and 23:57) into Newcastle.

Metro does now have experience of out-stabling trains as a contingency during Major Line Closures, though we prefer not to encourage discussion of the details of this due to the threat of vandalism. Sorry if it has not been clear why posts around this subject have been removed from the Nexus discussion board."

Thanks for the response Huw!

A mini-depot could also provide extra benefits, for example during line closures. Quicker to get engineers to a defective train, easier to store a failed train and possibly a quick inspection to see whether it can fixed there and then or whether it has to be sent to Gosforth to be fixed. You also have the fact that should a train have a defective set of doors, engineers could meet the train/doors at Pelaw and have a quick look potentially fixing the problem too.

Obviously it would cost money to build a shed and a small mess room and bring in equipment to fix small problems, but maybe two or three of the engineers who live relatively close to Pelaw would move from Gosforth to this new mini-depot.

Another advantage would Pelaw short trains would gain an opportunity to be given a quick clean that is given to other trains when they reach a terminus.

Whilst trains may be early enough right now, would it not be possible to trial an earlier service that reaches Newcastle for around 0550 allowing people to get into work for 0600? I believe if it is well advertised that there will be "New earlier services reaching Newcastle by 6am" people will use them.

If you were going to have any sort of depot, it would need to be for running a good few earlier services from South Shields and South Hylton. Building a new depot (wherever it may be sited) for one extra, earlier service per day would be a massive waste. You'd need a good two or three per line to justify it, even if the demand is there.

Just had an email from Nexus asking me to do a survey about Free WIFI on Metro. Link in the email is unique so sadly can't be shared!

Nexus are conducting a survey to find out what people think about free Wi-Fi being installed on the Metro and your response would be appreciated.

By completing this short survey you have the opportunity to enter a prize draw to win 1 of 2 x £30 shopping vouchers.

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Probably could do with getting some of the other projects sorted first, but would be useful for the future, if it works properly and is quick enough.

I might be being quite previous here but would it be better running earlier services as a bus instead of a Metro. For example, South Shields passengers could be dropped off at Howden

bluenoxid said:

I might be being quite previous here but would it be better running earlier services as a bus instead of a Metro. For example, South Shields passengers could be dropped off at Howden

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The problem with this is the fact that buses won't always turn up - Metro you can guarantee in the early morning first trains, unless they state on their website/facebook otherwise.

A bus would also have to leave significantly earlier than a Metro even if it was to just reach Howden.

ModernRailways said:

The problem with this is the fact that buses won't always turn up - Metro you can guarantee in the early morning first trains, unless they state on their website/facebook otherwise.

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I'm afraid you couldn't be any further from the truth at the moment. I get the 07:29 from Jarrow and on a few occasions recently it has either not turned up at all, or been running late with no information whatsoever given out to passengers. Nothing on Facebook, Twitter, passeneger information screens, and certainly no announcements.
In an ideal world there would be earlier metros, however there are too many impracticalities to do so at the moment.

blue sabre said:

I'm afraid you couldn't be any further from the truth at the moment. I get the 07:29 from Jarrow and on a few occasions recently it has either not turned up at all, or been running late with no information whatsoever given out to passengers. Nothing on Facebook, Twitter, passeneger information screens, and certainly no announcements.
In an ideal world there would be earlier metros, however there are too many impracticalities to do so at the moment.

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I was talking about the 0600. The 0729 is in the full 12 minute service and so whilst it should be mentioned it's not as important since another train will be there in 12 minutes time.

And I'm sorry, but if you are getting that train to just get you into work on time you should probably consider getting the 0717 and then either have a slow walk into work. When I go to college I always get the 17 minutes past to get me to Newcastle on time, it also allows me to change onto a quieter train at Pelaw so I can get a seat, it also allows for any delays Metro might have. Obviously, you may not be cutting it fine and are just getting the 29 minutes past because you can. This was more of a rant at those who do, but then complain at Metro for every little thing.

Got to say, for whatever reason, the early morning services do seem to vary quite a bit, especially the peak services but not exclusively so.

On the subject of the barriers, I had a first taste of going through the barriers via using your ticket at Gateshead this afternoon, clearly for some passengers it did seemed confusing and then there was other passengers who used their POP cards therefore there was only a very minor que but even going by that, you do imagine there could be some queuing problems in the first week or two when the barriers are fully operational at a busier station like Monument but its good too see them actually being used even if its probably only for staff training purposes(as I imagine this was the case as they are not meant to operate until early next year I'm led to believe).

ModernRailways said:

I was talking about the 0600. The 0729 is in the full 12 minute service and so whilst it should be mentioned it's not as important since another train will be there in 12 minutes time.

And I'm sorry, but if you are getting that train to just get you into work on time you should probably consider getting the 0717 and then either have a slow walk into work. When I go to college I always get the 17 minutes past to get me to Newcastle on time, it also allows me to change onto a quieter train at Pelaw so I can get a seat, it also allows for any delays Metro might have. Obviously, you may not be cutting it fine and are just getting the 29 minutes past because you can. This was more of a rant at those who do, but then complain at Metro for every little thing.

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Communicating delays should be important at anytime of day. You pointed out they would update you at 06:00, I pointed out they rarely manage it an hour and a half later.
All I ask is they improve their communication, they have plenty channels open to them.

I'll choose to ignore the second part of your post.

blue sabre said:

Communicating delays should be important at anytime of day. You pointed out they would update you at 06:00, I pointed out they rarely manage it an hour and a half later.
All I ask is they improve their communication, they have plenty channels open to them.

I'll choose to ignore the second part of your post.

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I'm not saying it shouldn't. Just that when there is a train every 12 minutes people should still be able to get where there going 12 minutes later!

Didn't they win communication award? The lady who does the social feeds is very good! Send a tweet and she most often than not will reply with what the problem was. Obviously she can't answer everything which is why she directs people to the customer service email!
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Paul_10 said:

On the subject of the barriers, I had a first taste of going through the barriers via using your ticket at Gateshead this afternoon, clearly for some passengers it did seemed confusing and then there was other passengers who used their POP cards therefore there was only a very minor que but even going by that, you do imagine there could be some queuing problems in the first week or two when the barriers are fully operational at a busier station like Monument but its good too see them actually being used even if its probably only for staff training purposes(as I imagine this was the case as they are not meant to operate until early next year I'm led to believe).

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I've being using my pass now for the past few days. Had quite a few funny looks whilst tapping in and out at Jarrow, although I hate it at the end of the day and the validator takes more than 5 seconds to work, people start getting pretty annoyed because you haven't just walked straight through! Doesn't help that the validators are right at the exit and there are only two. I would have said four validators - one at the middle of the platform, one at the rear, and then the two in the current location! Going to be fun when everyone has to touch in and out - not!

ModernRailways said:

I was talking about the 0600. The 0729 is in the full 12 minute service and so whilst it should be mentioned it's not as important since another train will be there in 12 minutes time.

And I'm sorry, but if you are getting that train to just get you into work on time you should probably consider getting the 0717 and then either have a slow walk into work. When I go to college I always get the 17 minutes past to get me to Newcastle on time, it also allows me to change onto a quieter train at Pelaw so I can get a seat, it also allows for any delays Metro might have. Obviously, you may not be cutting it fine and are just getting the 29 minutes past because you can. This was more of a rant at those who do, but then complain at Metro for every little thing.

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why should he go for the earlier train, a timetable is there for a reason to get him there. Nexus DB Regio and Metro have gone down hill since they took over constant delays, signalling problems trains breaking down it is time something was done about it and I STAND by my earlier comments that a public enquirie should be carried out into the failings of the Nexus/ DB Regio partnership.

rwilson said:

why should he go for the earlier train, a timetable is there for a reason to get him there. Nexus DB Regio and Metro have gone down hill since they took over constant delays, signalling problems trains breaking down it is time something was done about it and I STAND by my earlier comments that a public enquirie should be carried out into the failings of the Nexus/ DB Regio partnership.

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Like I said, by going for the earlier train - it's only 12 minutes earlier - it allows for a much higher chance of getting into work on time since a train could go missing and the next train will still get you there on time. By getting into work that 12 minutes earlier he could get a coffee (or other hot drink of preference) and relax a little before starting the day. If people are cutting it so fine to get into work on time it's their own stupid fault when wages get docked, if there is significant disruption than that would be tough to call.

The system has always been like this... The problem Metro have is they publish when disruption occurs so everyone, including those not using the Metro, can see. There are people on the Facebook page for example who will complain on every post that they have somehow been delayed, or know someone who has. In 2 years of travelling on Metro frequently (at least 4 days a week) I have been delayed significantly (more than 20 minutes) three times at a maximum. To me that really isn't bad. Those passengers north of the tyne do seem to have more disruption though. More people moan now because they see all the other problems since they are reported on social media, instead of only travelling passengers knowing.

ModernRailways said:

Like I said, by going for the earlier train - it's only 12 minutes earlier - it allows for a much higher chance of getting into work on time since a train could go missing and the next train will still get you there on time. By getting into work that 12 minutes earlier he could get a coffee (or other hot drink of preference) and relax a little before starting the day. If people are cutting it so fine to get into work on time it's their own stupid fault when wages get docked, if there is significant disruption than that would be tough to call.

The system has always been like this... The problem Metro have is they publish when disruption occurs so everyone, including those not using the Metro, can see. There are people on the Facebook page for example who will complain on every post that they have somehow been delayed, or know someone who has. In 2 years of travelling on Metro frequently (at least 4 days a week) I have been delayed significantly (more than 20 minutes) three times at a maximum. To me that really isn't bad. Those passengers north of the tyne do seem to have more disruption though. More people moan now because they see all the other problems since they are reported on social media, instead of only travelling passengers knowing.

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Please stop referencing me when you mention being late for work. I've never said that is an issue.
I have a problem with the fact they dont communicate delays very well at all, and the is no guarantee that a 05:30 or whatever train from Pelaw/Shields/Sunderland/wherever will actually arrive on time.

Paul_10 said:

Got to say, for whatever reason, the early morning services do seem to vary quite a bit, especially the peak services but not exclusively so.

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Morning peak services are the first ones to be cut when there is a lack of available sets for the full service. What also doesn't help is the fact there are only two ways into/out from the depot. All it takes is one failed/late train at the depot to bugger up the whole system for the first trains.

rwilson said:

why should he go for the earlier train, a timetable is there for a reason to get him there. Nexus DB Regio and Metro have gone down hill since they took over constant delays, signalling problems trains breaking down it is time something was done about it and I STAND by my earlier comments that a public enquirie should be carried out into the failings of the Nexus/ DB Regio partnership.

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It wouldn't be any different if any other company had won the concession compared to DB. A lot of people do not realise the logistics of the refurbishment project, so I'll go through it again.

Monday to Friday you need 78 Metrocars for peak service, forming 39 sets, so availability has to be approximately 87% of the fleet. This leaves 12 cars out of the full 90. At any one time there can be up to six cars either at Doncaster or being commissioned, leaving six more spare cars. Out of those six, there will be a good two or three out for general, planned maintenance. So in effect you have if lucky, two spare sets, if unlucky one spare set, or if very unlucky no spare sets at all. So during the morning peak, if one train develops a fault, there is nothing else to replace it.

In related news 4011 has returned today from Doncaster and 4044 has gone down.

ModernRailways said:

The problem with this is the fact that buses won't always turn up - Metro you can guarantee in the early morning first trains, unless they state on their website/facebook otherwise.

A bus would also have to leave significantly earlier than a Metro even if it was to just reach Howden.

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I'm not aiming this at you but 83% suggests that the Metro doesn't always turn up either

I think the ticketgates are going to be an interesting experience as they start going. My hope is that they slowly bring them online around the system in rolling blocks rather than a giant switch on.

bluenoxid said:

I'm not aiming this at you but 83% suggests that the Metro doesn't always turn up either

I think the ticketgates are going to be an interesting experience as they start going. My hope is that they slowly bring them online around the system in rolling blocks rather than a giant switch on.

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I'm dreading the barriers, I've got an annual Network One pass which as I understand, will require me to seek assistance and be let throughout the gates manually.

blue sabre said:

I'm dreading the barriers, I've got an annual Network One pass which as I understand, will require me to seek assistance and be let throughout the gates manually.

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I thought the barriers can read the magstripe on the back of the Network One pass.

As to how many will need to be reprinted because the never-used coding has gone awry (or need to be reprinted subsequently because there's a dodgy gate reader about, or because we're expected to carry so many magnetic objects in day-to-day life nowadays) is anyone's guess.

Ticket offices in the SE are used to reprinting seasons for that very reason, but this will be a new experience up here; one hopes the training and systems will be up to it.

Obviously those with bus-issued Transfares, Explorer or Day Rovers will need to show their tickets.

I hope also they've been able to ensure the gates can read National Rail tickets encoded with the appropriate station codes.

I also hope they'll get on with distributing some new ticket wallets that it is actually straightforward to take the network passes out of - I remember before Oyster, London Underground used to issue a good plastic wallet that had a pocket that kept the photocard nice and secure, and another pocket that was readily accessible to retrieve your travelcard in a trice.

Still not looking forward to carrying the shopping home and navigating the barriers with a magstripe ticket!
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ModernRailways said:

I've being using my pass now for the past few days. Had quite a few funny looks whilst tapping in and out at Jarrow, although I hate it at the end of the day and the validator takes more than 5 seconds to work, people start getting pretty annoyed because you haven't just walked straight through! Doesn't help that the validators are right at the exit and there are only two. I would have said four validators - one at the middle of the platform, one at the rear, and then the two in the current location! Going to be fun when everyone has to touch in and out - not!

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I understood ITSO benchmark is for the transaction to be completed in 600ms, and DfT envisages not more than 1s between the card coming into the field range and the gate or display being activated to signal approval or rejection to the user.
There must be some unexpected delay in the processing, or possibly your card has some non-fatal defect?
Out of interest does it take 5s to read if read by a NFC-enabled phone or the ticket machines?

Ze Random One said:

I understood ITSO benchmark is for the transaction to be completed in 600ms, and DfT envisages not more than 1s between the card coming into the field range and the gate or display being activated to signal approval or rejection to the user.
There must be some unexpected delay in the processing, or possibly your card has some non-fatal defect?
Out of interest does it take 5s to read if read by a NFC-enabled phone or the ticket machines?

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Just tried on my Mams Google Nexus and it seems to take about 10 seconds on that. When I've had checked by metro inspectors it seems to take around 2-5 seconds - although lately I've just been flashing it, since they seem to look dumbfounded when you hand it to them in a closed ticket wallet. They've always opened it to see, and then still scanned it but since I've just showed it to them they don't bother scanning it.

I got my Grandad to try his pass to see whether it was mine being slow and his had the same delay on the phone and also with inspectors' phones.

I've noticed at the physical barriers it goes through almost instantly, but the Validators at Jarrow always seem to take a while.

Ze Random One said:

I hope also they've been able to ensure the gates can read National Rail tickets encoded with the appropriate station codes.

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National Rail Tickets use different code from the Metro issued tickets. Also been told its not possible.

Ze Random One said:

I thought the barriers can read the magstripe on the back of the Network One pass.

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Only Network One tickets compatible are with the barriers are Weekly ones and apparently soon 4 weekly ones.

Crimzz said:

Only Network One tickets compatible are with the barriers are Weekly ones and apparently soon 4 weekly ones.

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Yeah, that is my understanding of it. I'm really looking forward to queueing every morning to get through the barriers whilst the staff have a plethora of different tickets to deal with.
Nexus have failed bigtime with this, any smartcard system should have been integrated with all operators in the area adopting the same system. Now we have a mish-mash of cards and a popular, integrated ticket, that is going to inconvenience the ticket holder.

blue sabre said:

Yeah, that is my understanding of it. I'm really looking forward to queueing every morning to get through the barriers whilst the staff have a plethora of different tickets to deal with.
Nexus have failed bigtime with this, any smartcard system should have been integrated with all operators in the area adopting the same system. Now we have a mish-mash of cards and a popular, integrated ticket, that is going to inconvenience the ticket holder.

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Exactly! I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I thought Nexus should have had a slow run up, with all companies working behind the scenes to get everything smart and ready, including installation of ticket barriers/validators, all ticketing companies becoming smart and having train companies (like northern) on board too. Then a huge advertising campaign by Nexus telling people to switch to a smart ticket, with people then having 6 months to change to a smart ticket. All travelshops would have the required software to switch products, for example Gold Card users. People will have to hand in their tickets and in return be given a small slip of paper which will display what ticket was held and that this slip of paper is the person's ticket for the next month - it shouldn't take more than a month to make a Pop card and then post it. The barriers/validators would have been switched on 3 months in to make more people aware they need to have a smart pass. Once the 6 months are up, people must touch in/out but seasonal/weekly passes would not be fined if they forget to touch in/out at a validator. Another 6 months would pass and everyone would have to touch in/out, annual/weekly pass holders would not be penalised if they did forget but would be told to remember to touch in/out. Pay-As-You-Go cards would also become available.

To summarise in a monthly order:
Prior to public needing to do anything: Nexus talk to all relevant companies, e.g. Northern, Network One, etc. to make all companies get equipment to read/create smart tickets. Once all companies are ready, the following would happen.
Months 1 -3: Huge advertising campaign to tell people to switch to a smart ticket. Smart ticketing becomes available.
Months 3-6: Barriers/Validators switched on to the public (already tested), no requirement to touch in/out but you should. Huge advertising campaign to tell people. Staff at stations to tell people what to do - like the ticket machines.
Months 6-12: People must touch in/out, but people would not be penalised.
Months 12+: Pay-As-You-Go becomes available, all passengers must touch in/out. All passengers would be penalised if they forgot to touch in/out but any appeal by those with weekly/annual/monthly passes would not have to pay the fine.


Quick question: Will staff have something other than their phones to check if people have validated? Right now, the phone app simply says what ticket people have.

12 months is not long enough for such a project. As it stand at the minute, the project is over two years in the running. The first new ticket machine was installed at Palmersville in November 2011.

142094 said:

12 months is not long enough for such a project. As it stand at the minute, the project is over two years in the running. The first new ticket machine was installed at Palmersville in November 2011.

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It would have been public for 12 months. The rest of the work would have been done previously, but kept relatively quiet. For example, getting Northern Rail, Network One etc. all on board and ready to go smart. Then once everything behind the scenes is done people will start to see barriers/validators being installed and then there would be a huge advertising push for smart cards becoming available.

All cards would be ready to go with machines running pretty much non-stop producing them.

Nexus could have just said 'New ticket machines are being installed which will enable us, in the future, to allow for smart ticketing as well as open up many new payment methods for transport around the region. As we're still sorting everything we don't have a final timescale, but look out for publicity on buses/trains/Metro in the future.'

Then once validators/ticket barriers were beginning to be installed and tested, Nexus would start a huge advertising campaign to tell people to switch to smart tickets and that Pay as You Go Pop cards will become available in the near future.

This would have saved Nexus money too, as I received an Under 16 Pop Card and they still weren't being used 'smartly' until after at least 2 years had passed. That's two years (at least) worth of school kids that didn't need to switch, but Nexus decided they had to. How much did it cost Nexus to produce all of these Under 16 Pop cards that were never used 'smartly'? I know you have to pay now, but they were free for the first few months to get people to switch and many people did!

Some football specials this weekend for the derby match on Sunday - a few Metros going non-stop from Central to St Peters, and Northern also doing some specials.

Also been told that there will be sets out tomorrow for driver training.

Been through Monument today and noticed there was a new Sainsburys Local opening up soon. I also believe I saw some Cafe Nero signage, but that was behind the white strips. Sainsburys is out in the open for all to see now.

I was also in Fenwicks and there seemed to be a lot going on, on the ground floor next to the old TX Maxx link. Is the link being reestablished? Possibly between Sainsburys and Cafe Nero (if that is indeed what I saw)?

Monument station really needs a good clean with nice bright lighting and the new black and white panelling/signage! Looks odd having a nice clean Sainsburys with dirty white panelling (Metro's panelling, not the temporary boards) surrounding it.

ModernRailways said:

Been through Monument today and noticed there was a new Sainsburys Local opening up soon. I also believe I saw some Cafe Nero signage, but that was behind the white strips. Sainsburys is out in the open for all to see now.

I was also in Fenwicks and there seemed to be a lot going on, on the ground floor next to the old TX Maxx link. Is the link being reestablished? Possibly between Sainsburys and Cafe Nero (if that is indeed what I saw)?

Monument station really needs a good clean with nice bright lighting and the new black and white panelling/signage! Looks odd having a nice clean Sainsburys with dirty white panelling (Metro's panelling, not the temporary boards) surrounding it.

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What they should do in monument is raise the roof to make it feel bigger, also been told that they are reinstating a passage way next to Sainsburys not sure how or were it will go.