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TfL Wants more trains for the jubilee line

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Manchester77

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From the latest issue of modern railways,
TfL wants additional trains for the jubilee line. The deal will be announced in April next year. The trains themselves are expected to be clones of the existing 1996 stock. Over on the northern line there's chance a further 5 1995 stock clones could be added to the contract for Battersea and could be combined into the one contract. The article then goes on to say how this could be an opportunity to order any additional stock for the northern line split.

Exciting times :)
 
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WinterChief

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I think the 1996 orders are for an extension to Harrow and the Hill. Splitting the Northern sounds like a good idea. Some good progress being made!
 

Manchester77

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Why an extension to Harrow?! TfL have said they want to increase the frequency bus needing more trains...
 

Mojo

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Why an extension to Harrow?! TfL have said they want to increase the frequency bus needing more trains...
Yes, but there is insufficient demand for such a high frequency of trains to go up to Stanmore, and getting loads more use out of the central sidings that can accommodate reversing trains is perhaps unwise, so there has been a fair bit of talk recently about running some Jubilee trains to Harrow/Hill.
 

Manchester77

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Yeah I've heard about issues south of Stanmore in the centre sidings. Do you have any more details about the Harrow terminating I've not heard much about it :)
 

Peter Mugridge

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I'm all for it if it means the Met running fast off peak between Wembley and Harrow once more, but somehow I doubt that would happen - it would just be more trains on the same all stops wouldn't it?

Wouldn't it be more logical to make more use of the existing turnbacks on the Jubilee, or are they all operating at full capacity already?
 

WinterChief

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As has been said the Jubilee doesn't need such an intensive service to Stanmore. But they still need a core service that is high frequency (Willesden Green - North Greenwich) The Jubilee to Harrow will mean that trains have extra stations to terminate at Wembley, Willesden, Harrow, Stanmore, etc.

All Mets would run "Semi-fast" (but that phrase would disappear as semi fast would be normal).

There has been talk about plans to want to increase stabling sidings at Stanmore to stable more trains. This would mean trains no longer need to stable at Neasden Depot. Thus separating the Met and Jubilee and no need to have both signalling systems in the depot. Also allowing for extra space to stable more Mets (and S Stock S7's for maintenance since most overhaul will be done there) for an extension to Watford Junct.

All ties in nicely and makes perfect sense if you ask me!
 
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Manchester77

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Yeah does sound like a sensible idea, iirc there was an article on London Reconnections about the jubilee line centre siding turnbacks but I can't find it. I remember it saying how terminating in these is tricky due to service intensity or something like that.

Doesn't look like anything would need to be done at Harrow either however as you say additional sidings at Stanmore does sound better especially as you say with Croxley coming up
 

edwin_m

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Wouldn't there be issues with incompatible signalling systems and platform heights if Jubilee and Met both went to Harrow? Hence I think if this happened the Jubilee would take over the Local lines and the intermediate stops, with extra crossovers at Wembley Park.

(and yes I know intermediate platform heights were and still are used, but LUL probably woudn't want to worsen accessibility by introducing more of them)
 

Nym

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The new CF650 systems may be able to operate quite happily alongside S40 with a bit of geat sat inbetween them, and indeed do interoperate on Neasden Depot, so it could be the case of some running to Harrow OTH and some met still running on the local lines (possibly the Uxbridges) off peak there shouldn't be a need to use both fast and local lines for the met.

It would proberbly result in a system using three northbound and two southbound platforms at Wembley Park.

And yes, there are very significant issues in using centre sidings north of the stations to terminate, the only realistic place on route that you can terminate Jubilee services early without significant operational issues is North Grenwich...(!)

Might mean an additional turnback North of Harrow OTH towards Moor Park though since the Harrow OTH Local Turnback would be pretty much exclusively used by the Jubilee Line.

Oh, and if it's done properly one could be looking at service something like

(If we include facilities to use different N/B platforms at Wembley Park)
Peak
12tph Harrow OTH - Stratford
12tph Stanmore - Stratford
6tph Wembley Park - North Greenwich / Stratford (Stepping back at N Greenwich)

Willesden Green and West Hampstead would no longer be used for turnbacks under this plan, but it would proberbly need a significant amount of stock to pull this timetable off.

A bit more work; removing the unused fast platforms at Willesden Green and/or taking up some extra land at West Hampstead to provide three jubilee line platforms with a similar layout to Golders Green or North Acton to be used for turnbacks (Works very nicely on the Central Line). This would reduce the amount of trains required and remove the need of south facing junctions for the Jubilee at Wembley Park and reduce queing Met units that will share the entry with the Jubilee onto the Harrow OTH Locals, so for both stock and timetabling this would be optimal.
West Hampstead looks a bit tight, but it looks acheivable at Willesden Green, possibly by sending the N/B Met 'round the back' of the Met platform, that becoming the Jubilee Northbound, terminating on the current Jubilee Northbound, additional space in the siding if required or going back south again (same island), install stepping back and you're all sorted to terminate up to 12tph (technially up to 17tph) at Willesden Green. If neither of these can be done in the peaks everything will need to be pushed through to Stanmore or Harrow OTH.

So that would be 18tph to Stanmore and 12tph to Harrow OTH. One would not like on reflection to be using centre line terminating anywhere other than dedicated or semi dedicated platforms. (Such as the layout at Seven Sisters)
 
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Muzer

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Is this just something proposed by enthusiasts or is there actually a source from TfL that this is possible?
 
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