Refunds for overcrowding?

orpine · 4 Nov 2013

So, following my ~35minute journey from Oxford to Leamington where I had the pleasure of sitting on a nice grim floor on an XC, I was wondering if there is a refund policy for overcrowding?

XC's auto-email response to my complaint about conditions implies that you can get one (at 5%) if you get your ticket endoursed by the conductor (yes - and how am I supposed to reach him/her through the aisles of standing people and their luggage?), but it also suggests that maybe I needed to have a seat reservation first (I didn't).

Can anyone offer clarification on this? Thanks.

RailUK Forums

Rich McLean · 4 Nov 2013

If you didn't have a seat reservation you wont receive any kind of refund.

If you travel on XC, reserve a seat before hand. If that's not possible, buy first class.

If you turn up on the day, be prepared to sit on the floor or stand. Also if the train is packed i.e. isle full of people it would be nearly impossible to get to your seat, so there is still no guarantee of getting a seat with a reservation. Compo may be due when you have reserved a seat, and another passenger is sat in it and refuses to move. This would have to be endorsed by the Train Manager of course.

fowler9 · 4 Nov 2013

I had this years ago on a 2 car 158 from Reading to Liverpool on Bank Holiday Monday the day after the Reading Festival finished. I had a reserved seat. You have 2 hopes. Bob hope and no hope.

route:oxford · 4 Nov 2013

orpine said:
So, following my ~35minute journey from Oxford to Leamington where I had the pleasure of sitting on a nice grim floor on an XC, I was wondering if there is a refund policy for overcrowding?

XC's auto-email response to my complaint about conditions implies that you can get one (at 5%) if you get your ticket endoursed by the conductor (yes - and how am I supposed to reach him/her through the aisles of standing people and their luggage?), but it also suggests that maybe I needed to have a seat reservation first (I didn't).

Can anyone offer clarification on this? Thanks.

If you can afford to waste their time, do a Subject Access Request for a copy of the CCTV that shows you to evidence that you were standing.

dvboy · 4 Nov 2013

Done it on ATW, had a reserved seat but because of overcrowding and poorly identified coach letters had no hope in hell of finding the reserved seat. Complained by email and got compensated, they didn't even ask for the ticket. Presumably it was short-formed.

YorkshireBear · 4 Nov 2013

Next people will be claiming back petrol during congestion....

(Petrol picked due to being the main day to day expense in motorvehicle operation)
If you have a reserved seat then that is different.

Harlesden · 4 Nov 2013

Is the OP serious? A rail ticket guarantees you a ride on a train. It does not guarantee you a seat. If trains were never overcrowded, the rail network would be in serious financial trouble and the network itself would begin falling apart. Occasional overcrowding is part of the deal. I am 58 and I have stood for considerably longer than 35 minutes on a train. It was your own decision to sit on the floor.
Unless you had a reservation and were unable to secure your allotted seat, I would say no refund is due.

hairyhandedfool · 4 Nov 2013

A couple of weeks back I spent an hour and a half sitting on the floor, as out of the way as I could get, and when everyone piled off at New Street I found a seat for the remaining hour and a half of my journey, but, to be honest, I think I deserve more compensation for the seat than for the floor (you expect the floor to be hard).

Anyway, the minimum compensation for not getting a seat on a train is the amount you paid for reserving it, which in most cases is nothing, anything else is a bonus.

Weary Walker · 4 Nov 2013

I have made a claim to this effect - I had an advance ticket so I had no choice of train, find my seat? No chance, I was on the platform the train before the train arrived at the station the train originated from. Reservation in coach B - train arrived coaches labelled G, F, E & D. Further people piled on the next stop with reservations in coach C.
I got 50% back.

tony_mac · 4 Nov 2013

If a seat reservation, sleeper reservation or cycle reservation is not honoured, the Train Company responsible will refund any reservation fee paid. If the Train Company is unable to provide alternative equivalent accommodation for you or your cycle, you will be compensated for the inconvenience. The value of the compensation will be no more than the price of the full single fare for the journey.

I guess that floor space is roughly equivalent accommodation to a Voyager seat....

swj99 · 4 Nov 2013

YorkshireBear said:
Next people will be claiming back petrol during congestion....

And why not. Especially if that congestion is caused by people having to buy cars because they're fed up of relying on public transport.

Flamingo · 4 Nov 2013

Might I refer the OP to the section of the NRCoC headed "Tough Tittie"?

(I know there is no such section, but their should be!)

455driver · 4 Nov 2013

If the train was as (over)crowded as you state why didnt you get off and catch a later (quieter) service?

bb21 · 5 Nov 2013

Harlesden said:
Is the OP serious?

We all know on here that a ticket does not entitle one to a seat. I doubt many of the travelling public know that, just like the fact that many of them would find it acceptable to bypass a ticket office at the destination if they had no opportunity to pay beforehand.

orpine · 5 Nov 2013

route:oxford said:
If you can afford to waste their time, do a Subject Access Request for a copy of the CCTV that shows you to evidence that you were standing.

Do they have CCTV on XC? I've never seen one. (not that I'll be doing this)

Harlesden said:
Is the OP serious? A rail ticket guarantees you a ride on a train. It does not guarantee you a seat. If trains were never overcrowded, the rail network would be in serious financial trouble and the network itself would begin falling apart.

Yes. Why wouldn't I be? How else can we get train companies to run services that are suitable for their passengers other than by hitting them where it hurts - their pockets. We all know many of them don't actually care about their passengers except to give them lip service. This was a Sunday service. There are litereally hundreds of trainsets sitting around the country doing diddly squat all day; there are at least four in Leamington (London Midlands). I know they're not all interchangeable, but the expensive part (the rolling stock) exists and is available.

455driver said:
If the train was as (over)crowded as you state why didnt you get off and catch a later (quieter) service?

I was one of the first ones on; it would have been a struggle to get off. Also because having caught one of those later services (an hour later) the week before, that was just as over-crowded. So I guess I could sit around for 2+hrs waiting for a possibily not-overcrowded train.

bb21 said:
We all know on here that a ticket does not entitle one to a seat. I doubt many of the travelling public know that

As noted in my post, I do know that. I also know that the cost of the ticket was on the same order as the petrol for a car journey where you are guaranteed a seat.

======
Interesting fact:

Transporting cows of a similar weight being to humans being require at least 0.4m2 of space https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/69387/pb12544a-transport-cattle-110315.pdf. I had less space than that.
Prisoners in some of the worst prisons in the world get that sort of space allowance - http://www.lifegivingforce.com/2010/10/18/0-3-square-meters/

Tetchytyke · 5 Nov 2013

Flamingo said:
Might I refer the OP to the section of the NRCoC headed "Tough Tittie"?

That's the whole NRCoC isn't it?

pemma · 6 Nov 2013

DfT said:
Standard class capacity- Includes the number of standard class seats on the service and may include a standing allowance. No allowance for standing is made on a service when the time between stations before (AM) or after (PM) the critical load point is more than 20 minutes, but it is allowed when it is 20 minutes or less.

(AM) - All services arriving at a city centre terminal in the three hour period from 07:00 to 09:59. The 1 hour AM peak includes all arrivals between 08:00 and 08:59.

(PM) -All services that depart from a city centre terminal in the three hour period from 16:00 to 18:59. The 1 hour PM peak includes all departures between 17:00 and 17:59

Some operators mention this target in their passengers charter. CrossCountry do not, however, so they can claim they don't imply seat availability or a maximum amount of time you'd need to stand for.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

YorkshireBear said:
Next people will be claiming back petrol during congestion....

Isn't that what close to what train operators do? Northern service delayed by late running Pendolino, which is down to a train fault = Virgin liable for compensation.

jon0844 · 7 Nov 2013

orpine said:
Interesting fact:

Transporting cows of a similar weight being to humans being require at least 0.4m2 of space https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/69387/pb12544a-transport-cattle-110315.pdf. I had less space than that.
Prisoners in some of the worst prisons in the world get that sort of space allowance - http://www.lifegivingforce.com/2010/10/18/0-3-square-meters/

Prisoners probably spend longer than 35 minutes in those conditions, while cattle have no choice to travel in such conditions.
You did.

Aldaniti · 7 Nov 2013

Unfortunately anyone having the audacity to want to travel by train at short notice will be welcomed with the highest fares and the risk of no seat. This will always be a problem with a walk-on railway (which passengers would not want to lose) but is compounded in this country by profit-focused TOCs and inept politicians. Given that the OP's route is operated by Cross Country, with their awful pint-sized trains, the best advice would be to head towards the M40 I'm afraid.

island · 7 Nov 2013

Thing is, you've contradicted yourself a bit. CrossCountry sells advance fares until shortly before the train departs.

90019 · 7 Nov 2013

orpine said:
Interesting fact:

Transporting cows of a similar weight being to humans being require at least 0.4m2 of space https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/69387/pb12544a-transport-cattle-110315.pdf. I had less space than that.
Prisoners in some of the worst prisons in the world get that sort of space allowance - http://www.lifegivingforce.com/2010/10/18/0-3-square-meters/

Nobody forced you to travel on that train, you made the decision yourself.
Neither cattle nor prisoners have such a choice.

GodAtum · 7 Nov 2013

90019 said:
Nobody forced you to travel on that train, you made the decision yourself.
Neither cattle nor prisoners have such a choice.

I guess it depends how you define "choice". i could to choose not to travel during rush hour, therefore loosing my job so having to claim benefits. So in the long run it could be more expensive for the government if people choose not to travel during rush hour, loose their jobs and claim benefits.

reb0118 · 7 Nov 2013

True, but you could choose to travel by alternative means.

Via Bank · 7 Nov 2013

orpine said:
Interesting fact:

Transporting cows of a similar weight being to humans being require at least 0.4m2 of space https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/69387/pb12544a-transport-cattle-110315.pdf. I had less space than that.

Of course they do. Cows are bigger than humans, and don't get on the train out of choice. (Cows, for instance, have no concept of 'move down inside the car', 'form an orderly queue' and can also not hold handrails, given that they have no hands. Humans are capable of squeezing themselves into tighter spaces without any adverse effects.)

orpine said:
Prisoners in some of the worst prisons in the world get that sort of space allowance - http://www.lifegivingforce.com/2010/10/18/0-3-square-meters/

Of course they do. A long period spent in a permanent building is very different to, at most, a few hours spent in a piece of moving machinery that has to run on parallel rails and fit in tight tunnels.

Tetchytyke · 7 Nov 2013

GodAtum said:
i could to choose not to travel during rush hour, therefore loosing my job so having to claim benefits.

I know that if I try and get on the Northern Line in zone three at 8.20am I may struggle to get on the first train that arrives. If I leave my home half an hour earlier I will get on the first train without an issue. If I leave my home an hour earlier I might even get a seat, if I'm lucky.

If I decide to have the extra half hour in bed, I've made the choice knowing that my commute will be significantly less comfortable. If I choose the earlier train, I have chosen an easier commute and a lounge about in Caffe Nero but lost half an hour in bed. But it is a choice.

That said, capacity on XC trains is a joke.

jon0844 · 7 Nov 2013

Via Bank said:
Of course they do. Cows are bigger than humans, and don't get on the train out of choice. (Cows, for instance, have no concept of 'move down inside the car', 'form an orderly queue' and can also not hold handrails, given that they have no hands. Humans are capable of squeezing themselves into tighter spaces without any adverse effects.)

When I read the original post last night, I didn't even think of that obvious point - that a cow will take up rather a lot more room 'on the ground' than a human standing up!

But as for your comment about cows not understanding the concept of moving down inside the car, or forming an orderly queue - I think that's little different than a lot of humans that use trains! Many will opt to be squashed in a vestibule as they don't want to move down.

That said, a lot of human passengers are more like sheep when it comes to using public transport...

PG · 7 Nov 2013

jonmorris0844 said:
That said, a lot of human passengers are more like sheep when it comes to using public transport...

Especially if they buy tickets online from a certain well known retailer :lol:

jon0844 · 7 Nov 2013

43%? Baaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!

bb21 · 7 Nov 2013

The issue with capacity on XC is a well-debated one. Pointing the finger at Arriva is not really fair since they were not the ones who ordered those nightmares.

orpine said:
As noted in my post, I do know that. I also know that the cost of the ticket was on the same order as the petrol for a car journey where you are guaranteed a seat.

Yet you conveniently ignore the hassle of having to drive yourself in a car.

orpine said:
This was a Sunday service. There are litereally hundreds of trainsets sitting around the country doing diddly squat all day;

Not much good if there is no one to work them.

6Gman · 7 Nov 2013

orpine said:
This was a Sunday service. There are litereally hundreds of trainsets sitting around the country doing diddly squat all day;

No there aren't. Unless you're suggesting some 450s could be coupled up to some 221s!

there are at least four in Leamington (London Midlands).

Of what Class? 166/221 train anyone?

I know they're not all interchangeable, but the expensive part (the rolling stock) exists and is available.

It's a teeny, weeny bit more complicated than you think.

............ (see above in bold)

Refunds for overcrowding?

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