Andrew Nelson
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Nope, not today, "This Ticket is not Valid at this Station, Please Seek Assistance".
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Gateline staff - Leeds station.
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Nope, not today, "This Ticket is not Valid at this Station, Please Seek Assistance".
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Really? I've used em before, in fact when the gates were first installed I was expecting it not to work and asked the gate guy to let me through, he told me to try it and it worked fine. Strange.
From the number of times I have seen this message at Leeds, I wonder if whoever programmed the barriers thought Leeds was in Kent (not that there is a station at that Leeds of course)
Andrew Nelson
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- 702
I've never had it work yet.
northernman
Verified Rep - Northern
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- 19 Jul 2012
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- 139
Hi,
As some of you may know, I work for Northern Rail, I have contractual responsibility for the gates (as well as self service, ticket office, and portable ticketing systems).
A few things of note from reading this thread that posters may be interested in:
- I will raise the observations by the OP of the staff interaction with the local manager asap, (assuming of course it has not already been investigated, I'm returning from a weeks leave so have been out of the business).
- I was the project manager responsible for installing gates at Leeds, and our other 3 stations. I'm afraid I cannot go into all of the technicalities of install, but I do need you to accept that we would never put something into place without the correct safety process in place, and regular checks on process as any responsible business would do. In fact the safety case for Leeds was so complicated that it delayed the go live of the gates because we wanted to get it right;
- A gates natural state is 'sprung open' to the 'exit position', power keeps them in the closed position. Therefore in the event of a fire or other emergency, the power to the gates are cut, and they open as a fail safe;
- You can operate a gateline without a member of staff stood on the actual gateline, but they must be next to the 'Local Device Controller' and be able to visibly see the gateline so they can activate the gates if need be, we have such a device in the glass office on platform 8 at Leeds, (behind the information point). We put this in to protect our staff late at night;
- There are many reasons why a ticket will not work in a gate, the following is not an exhaustive list, but its what I use to check any complaints we receive, and you may find it of some use:
1. The magnetic strip has failed, caused potentially by:
- Faulty ticket stock;
- Failed ticket stock (common with season tickets, Metrocards, Countycards etc);
- Faulty ticket printer (most common with Avantix because there is no final check of the encoding when the print run is complete);
- Magnetic interference has wiped the data (magnet on a bag clasp, phone, blackberry etc etc);
- The conductor has inadvertently stamped through the magnetic stripe;
- The ticket has a fold in it (I once had one that could be made back into an aeroplane shape, I realise that I'm 'that sad' to test this, but it had been a long day);
- The conductor or customer has pulled the ticket (on Avantix) before it has finished printing;
2. The ticket is genuinely not valid at that location, caused by:
- an invalid break of journey (off route);
- an invalid ticket type at that location;
- an invalid route or status code at that location;
- the ticket is not yet valid (off peak day return before the time restriction ends for example);
- The ticket is not yet valid (it is being used prior to the date on the ticket);
- The ticket has failed the break of journey check (it is of a type that does not permit a BOJ);
- The ticket has expired;
3. There is an error in the software:
- This can happen, there are millions of journey permutations, and the software is surprisingly complicated to get right, even for an old hand like myself, or my colleagues;
- A new ticket has been introduced, but the gates have not been upgraded quickly enough;
- The magnetic encoding is erroneous (for example, the reason many rover types do not work is because they are encoded 'from' and 'to' the same National Location Code (NLC), the gates get confused because this fails the Break of Journey tables, and the 'valid origin NLC' tables, in some cases the encoding is historically junk which we need to change, its a lengthy and complex process;
- The magnetic encoding shares the same descriptor for more than one ticket (bear with me on this one: Whilst you may know a ticket as an 'Off Peak Day Return' for example (or Cheap Day Return in old money, pre simplification), the industry systems know it as something entirely different. In this case it is 2BDY. However, the magnetic strip technology is the same as it was pre 'computer based' ticket issuing systems (for those of you still with me, I mean APTIS). Because of various limitations with that technology, the ticket is only encoded with the second and third digits (in the case above 'BD'), it ignores the 2 (a throwback to second class because class is irrelevant to a ticket gate), and it ignores the final digit 'R' in this case. So it is possible that you may have more than one type of ticket at any given location with the same descriptor 'BD' for example. Its an industry oddity, one we cannot change, and therefore in rare occasions the programmer of the gates may have to go for the more common ticket and its associated restrictions, unless of course the encoding can be changed. Still with me?
As said earlier, its not an exhaustive list, but hopefully it gives you a feel for the complexities.
There is a general industry concern over the Avantix ticket stock which is being worked on currently, and the Northern gates have recently gone through an upgrade to accept the Mcard (the smartcard version of the Metrocard). I have a piece of work to do shortly to improve reliability on Avantix ticket printers, (once I have rolled out a replacement desktop ticketing system).
I hope that helps,and most importantly it is not expected that the normal person needs to have this type of indepth knowledge, all they care about is that the gate opens and rightly so.
However, given the level of interest on this forum in such matters, I would like to make a genuine open offer, if you have a ticket that you think should work, but it does not and you think its a programming error for example, perhaps you can wither PM me on this forum, or add it to this thread and we will look into it, if possible offer an explanation or a fix. It's not always going to be possible to do this, please realise, sometimes it may just be your magnetic strip has failed for example, however its an open offer made with a genuine wish to improve things.
Kind regards
Ian Borthwick
Revenue Projects Manager
Northern Rail
As some of you may know, I work for Northern Rail, I have contractual responsibility for the gates (as well as self service, ticket office, and portable ticketing systems).
A few things of note from reading this thread that posters may be interested in:
- I will raise the observations by the OP of the staff interaction with the local manager asap, (assuming of course it has not already been investigated, I'm returning from a weeks leave so have been out of the business).
- I was the project manager responsible for installing gates at Leeds, and our other 3 stations. I'm afraid I cannot go into all of the technicalities of install, but I do need you to accept that we would never put something into place without the correct safety process in place, and regular checks on process as any responsible business would do. In fact the safety case for Leeds was so complicated that it delayed the go live of the gates because we wanted to get it right;
- A gates natural state is 'sprung open' to the 'exit position', power keeps them in the closed position. Therefore in the event of a fire or other emergency, the power to the gates are cut, and they open as a fail safe;
- You can operate a gateline without a member of staff stood on the actual gateline, but they must be next to the 'Local Device Controller' and be able to visibly see the gateline so they can activate the gates if need be, we have such a device in the glass office on platform 8 at Leeds, (behind the information point). We put this in to protect our staff late at night;
- There are many reasons why a ticket will not work in a gate, the following is not an exhaustive list, but its what I use to check any complaints we receive, and you may find it of some use:
1. The magnetic strip has failed, caused potentially by:
- Faulty ticket stock;
- Failed ticket stock (common with season tickets, Metrocards, Countycards etc);
- Faulty ticket printer (most common with Avantix because there is no final check of the encoding when the print run is complete);
- Magnetic interference has wiped the data (magnet on a bag clasp, phone, blackberry etc etc);
- The conductor has inadvertently stamped through the magnetic stripe;
- The ticket has a fold in it (I once had one that could be made back into an aeroplane shape, I realise that I'm 'that sad' to test this, but it had been a long day);
- The conductor or customer has pulled the ticket (on Avantix) before it has finished printing;
2. The ticket is genuinely not valid at that location, caused by:
- an invalid break of journey (off route);
- an invalid ticket type at that location;
- an invalid route or status code at that location;
- the ticket is not yet valid (off peak day return before the time restriction ends for example);
- The ticket is not yet valid (it is being used prior to the date on the ticket);
- The ticket has failed the break of journey check (it is of a type that does not permit a BOJ);
- The ticket has expired;
3. There is an error in the software:
- This can happen, there are millions of journey permutations, and the software is surprisingly complicated to get right, even for an old hand like myself, or my colleagues;
- A new ticket has been introduced, but the gates have not been upgraded quickly enough;
- The magnetic encoding is erroneous (for example, the reason many rover types do not work is because they are encoded 'from' and 'to' the same National Location Code (NLC), the gates get confused because this fails the Break of Journey tables, and the 'valid origin NLC' tables, in some cases the encoding is historically junk which we need to change, its a lengthy and complex process;
- The magnetic encoding shares the same descriptor for more than one ticket (bear with me on this one: Whilst you may know a ticket as an 'Off Peak Day Return' for example (or Cheap Day Return in old money, pre simplification), the industry systems know it as something entirely different. In this case it is 2BDY. However, the magnetic strip technology is the same as it was pre 'computer based' ticket issuing systems (for those of you still with me, I mean APTIS). Because of various limitations with that technology, the ticket is only encoded with the second and third digits (in the case above 'BD'), it ignores the 2 (a throwback to second class because class is irrelevant to a ticket gate), and it ignores the final digit 'R' in this case. So it is possible that you may have more than one type of ticket at any given location with the same descriptor 'BD' for example. Its an industry oddity, one we cannot change, and therefore in rare occasions the programmer of the gates may have to go for the more common ticket and its associated restrictions, unless of course the encoding can be changed. Still with me?
As said earlier, its not an exhaustive list, but hopefully it gives you a feel for the complexities.
There is a general industry concern over the Avantix ticket stock which is being worked on currently, and the Northern gates have recently gone through an upgrade to accept the Mcard (the smartcard version of the Metrocard). I have a piece of work to do shortly to improve reliability on Avantix ticket printers, (once I have rolled out a replacement desktop ticketing system).
I hope that helps,and most importantly it is not expected that the normal person needs to have this type of indepth knowledge, all they care about is that the gate opens and rightly so.
However, given the level of interest on this forum in such matters, I would like to make a genuine open offer, if you have a ticket that you think should work, but it does not and you think its a programming error for example, perhaps you can wither PM me on this forum, or add it to this thread and we will look into it, if possible offer an explanation or a fix. It's not always going to be possible to do this, please realise, sometimes it may just be your magnetic strip has failed for example, however its an open offer made with a genuine wish to improve things.
Kind regards
Ian Borthwick
Revenue Projects Manager
Northern Rail
Thanks indeed. I will take you up on your offer the next time I get a rejection message at Leeds. Of course, what will happen now is that all my tickets will be accepted - mind you, I would be happy with that anyway 
.
Just to pick up on this point:
Although the passenger does not need this knowledge, one would hope that the barrier attendants would at least know that there are various reasons why a valid ticket could be rejected which are not the fault of the passenger and hence tutting and muttering at the passenger is not helpful.
The more serious occasions when it has been implied that I have been 'trying it on', or have even been told point blank that my ticket is invalid and hence am fare dodging, do not include Northern stations. Locations where this has happened to me include barriers operated by East Midlands Trains, South West Trains, First Great Western, Scotrail, Southern and Southeastern.
.Just to pick up on this point:
Although the passenger does not need this knowledge, one would hope that the barrier attendants would at least know that there are various reasons why a valid ticket could be rejected which are not the fault of the passenger and hence tutting and muttering at the passenger is not helpful.
The more serious occasions when it has been implied that I have been 'trying it on', or have even been told point blank that my ticket is invalid and hence am fare dodging, do not include Northern stations. Locations where this has happened to me include barriers operated by East Midlands Trains, South West Trains, First Great Western, Scotrail, Southern and Southeastern.
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Whilst it can be issued it's not supposed to be as it's supposed to be issued on special stock. You may have trouble getting it accepted - especially by bus drivers.
GC, it seems are the only ones to ignore the rules...
http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/moresavings/WestYorkshireDayRover/#wheretobuydayrover
Where are you buying your tickets? I've had no trouble on ones bought from East Coast.
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Andrew Nelson
Member
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- 28 Jun 2010
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You may have seen any number of things but it doesn't mean they're supposed to be done. I did say they "can" be issued.
Do you mean Plusbus?
That's a ticket that's issued on normal stock so I don't see the issue.
Personally I think it would be good if all the Dayrovers were issued on normal stock and could legitimately be issued on train but me wanting it doesn't make it all happen.
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Andrew Nelson
Member
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If bus drivers don't have a problem with "PlusBus", issued on normal stock, then why would they have a problem with a bus & train Day-rover?
Or maybe, they need better training?
Like the Northern Staff who don't know about Disabled National Railcard allowing 2 people to get 1/3 off tickets 24/7. (but that's another thread).
Because they've been told that it's supposed to be issued on the special stock.
And they've told that Plusbus is issued on normal stock.
And a competely different issue.
Andrew Nelson
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I can't remember the last time I saw one issued on special stock, the one yesterday certainly wasn't.
However, the link is training.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Bus drivers in West Yorkshire shouldn't have a problem with having to read the print on a DayRover on normal stock- they don't seem to have a problem with WYPTE MetroBus Day tickets printed by other companies' machines, even the ones from YorkshireTiger (on Centrebus or even Stagecoach ticket reels!) which are barely readable!
I don't remember anyone saying they'd have trouble reading one - but their training material will (should?) mention that they're supposed to be printed on special stock.
I've had a bus driver threaten not to accept my MetroDay (which I'd used 5 times that day at that point) because the issuing driver had sold it for 20p less than the correct price.
Your experience differs from mine - I've been refused one on train and have seen it happen other times on my line. I've never seen one not issued on special stock - you are talking about the bus and train version, rather than the train version?
I'm going to leave this here as I've said I'd prefer them not to be printed on special stock.
If you get them printed on normal stock and have no problems good luck to you. I'm only pointing out what the rules day and what can happen.
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Andrew Nelson
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The Steel Group were selling them for £1 less.
However, I can't see in the "rules" they need to be printed on special stock?
You can get a Metro Day Rover of any kind from any station in mainland Britain I expect.
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Andrew Nelson
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As is "METRO BUS & TRAIN DAY ROVER"
Let's face it, we still have problems with bus drivers understanding the "Weekender" tickets.
I've seen people being denied travel on a Friday after 6pm, and on the 36 from Harewood into Leeds.
YorkshireRider
Member
Who/What is the Steel Group, and what were they selling for £1 less?
STEEL Group Investments ran two short-lived routes in the Dewsbury Area.
They then became a community transport company with their website here:
http://www.sgict.org/ complete with appalling spelling. The website only gives the times for Monday-Friday services, without mentioning which days they run though they do run every day.
I assume it was the Metro Day (bus only) ticket though I'm not sure what advantage that gave them.
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Please report this to Metro and Transdev.
I can confirm that the currently in-force Metro staff ticket guide (given to all bus drivers and rail conductors) stipulates that the bus train dayrover must be on special stock.
I personally, and ABOWY, would prefer for all bus drivers and on-train conductors to be able to issue the bus and Train ticket.
Apparently NorthernRail are the problem here though.
balne-wonderer
Member
Imagine having to use Leeds station almost every day!
Imagine having to use Leeds station almost every day!
Is this related to any particular comment?
Andrew Nelson
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"I've had a bus driver threaten not to accept my MetroDay (which I'd used 5 times that day at that point) because the issuing driver had sold it for 20p less than the correct price."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Have done already.
Don't seem bothered enough to take the details of the complainant.
(Wasn't me BTW, I have a ENCS).
When Huddersfield ticket office was being enlarged and the ticket office closed one Sunday, I bought a Bus & Train Family Day Rover from the bloke selling tickets from his machine. The ticket was printed on orange stock and not special and I had a right carry on trying to use it on the bus, although I knew I would.
Andrew Nelson
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Shame that some people can't read isn't it?
Who do you mean? The bus driver who's been told to expect special stock or the ticket issuer who's been told to issue it on special stock?
Andrew Nelson
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The bus driver who can see what it is, and is just being awkward.
So what is the bus driver supposed to do if he lets someone on with an incorrectly issued ticket and an inspector then gets on?
I've already said I'd think it'd be easier if they could be issued on normal orange stock, but the way to change things isn't by breaking the rules and causing problems for passengers later on.
Andrew Nelson
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Yet again, there is nothing that says they have to be on "special stock"
I got two in Scarborough a few years ago.
They are available from any ticket office in the UK. very few will have any "special stock".
It's nice if they can print it on something "special", however, if "plusbus" can be on ordinary orange stock, then there is no problem other than one that is created by a bolshie driver.
As has been said, other tickets are produced on general issue stock, and folks sometimes have problems. That is not the fault of the passenger it is the company not training staff correctly.
As many on this forum have said, even rail staff sometimes seem to want to pick an argument with passengers.
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