Gateline staff - Leeds station.

Deerfold · 6 Nov 2013

Daytripper said:
Yet again, there is nothing that says they have to be on "special stock"

Are you saying 34D is lying about what the guidance/training to drivers and guards says?

Daytripper said:
I got two in Scarborough a few years ago.

And that proves it's possible to produce them which we already know, not that that's the way they're supposed to be done.

Daytripper said:
They are available from any ticket office in the UK. very few will have any "special stock".

It's nice if they can print it on something "special", however, if "plusbus" can be on ordinary orange stock, then there is no problem other than one that is created by a bolshie driver.

Is your definition of a "bolshie" driver one who does what his employer has told him to do?

Daytripper said:
As has been said, other tickets are produced on general issue stock, and folks sometimes have problems. That is not the fault of the passenger it is the company not training staff correctly.

And for those tickets drivers have been told to expect them on general stock. You seem to be confusing training issues with staff not doing exactly what you have decided is right.

Daytripper said:
As many on this forum have said, even rail staff sometimes seem to want to pick an argument with passengers.

I'm not sure which rail staff you're on about here. The ones who comply with their training in not issuing the tickets on orange stock?

RailUK Forums

Baxenden Bank · 6 Nov 2013

Where are you buying your tickets? I've had no trouble on ones bought from East Coast.[/QUOTE said:
I was not referring specifically to the gates at Leeds but more generally. I have passed through the gateline at Leeds but used the attended gate as I did not wish to risk having my ticket swallowed up before I had completed my journey.

I buy my tickets on-line from a variety of sites, usually London Midland / Southern as I like their style of presenting the fare / train availability matrix. I dont use The Trainline style of sites as I feel the information is presented in a poor way. Regardless I generally collect from a Virgin operated machine. The Southern Daysaves I had problems with were collected from a Southern machine. Sometimes I have tickets delivered through the post.

The thing is, I still see the railways as a single network. I expect all ticket machines and barriers to operate in a similar manner. Uncertainty leads to worry, worry leads to me not travelling at all or using the attended gate as the default option.

There is a lack of information about how these machines treat tickets other than the obvious stick your ticket in and the gates open (or not). Clearly the Leeds ones must be special as they display error messages I have not come across this anywhere, merely a bleep and a failure of the gates to open.

Unfortunately there is variety between TOCs. For example, if a ticket is not valid is it always returned?

Some machines retain tickets at the end of a journey; others return them If I am claiming the fare back on expenses I need to know this in advance.

Some accept Rovers/Rangers, some dont - Im not going to risk putting a £100 plus weekly Rover in one unless I know I am going to get it back!

If the machine retains my ticket, before my journey is completed, how do I get it back does the gateline person have the ability to open up the machine and sift out my ticket?

Regarding Leeds, surely the barriers are wrongly located as they are not on the boundary of railway property. A break of journey occurs when you leave railway property (except to change trains where this is necessary). Thus I ought to be able to pass and repass through the gateline, freely and as often as I like, in order to use the full range of railway and other facilities which lie outside the gateline.

Deerfold · 6 Nov 2013

Baxenden Bank said:
Regarding Leeds, surely the barriers are wrongly located as they are not on the boundary of railway property. A break of journey occurs when you leave railway property (except to change trains where this is necessary). Thus I ought to be able to pass and repass through the gateline, freely and as often as I like, in order to use the full range of railway and other facilities which lie outside the gateline.

Very few barriers are at the boundary to railway property.

Whilst I'm not a fan of these gates I've had no problem with being allowed through to use station facilities (usually when using an advance with a change at Leeds).

Andrew Nelson · 6 Nov 2013

Deerfold said:
Are you saying 34D is lying about what the guidance/training to drivers and guards says?

And that proves it's possible to produce them which we already know, not that that's the way they're supposed to be done.

Is your definition of a "bolshie" driver one who does what his employer has told him to do?

And for those tickets drivers have been told to expect them on general stock. You seem to be confusing training issues with staff not doing exactly what you have decided is right.

I'm not sure which rail staff you're on about here. The ones who comply with their training in not issuing the tickets on orange stock?

As I've said, I can't remember the last time I saw one on "special stock".

Bus drivers argue with passengers about things that are unknown to the driver, not that a passenger is "tying it on". Let's face it, some drivers don't need much excuse.

The point of this thread is ticket gates at Leeds not accepting perfectly valid tickets. The gates at Leeds can't see what colour stock they're printed on.

I'm sure some petty little autocrat would love every single ticket to have its own stock, but in the real world, the writing on the ticket is what 99% of intelligent people will look at.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Deerfold said:
Whilst it can be issued it's not supposed to be as it's supposed to be issued on special stock. You may have trouble getting it accepted - especially by bus drivers.

GC, it seems are the only ones to ignore the rules...

http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/moresavings/WestYorkshireDayRover/#wheretobuydayrover

QUOTE]

It says Conc' Day Rovers aren't available at Post Offices, and they are.

Deerfold · 6 Nov 2013

Daytripper said:
As I've said, I can't remember the last time I saw one on "special stock".

Which doesn't change what staff are instructed to do.

As I've said I don't remember having seen one not on special stock. But I agree I've not tried to buy one in Scarborough.

Daytripper said:
Bus drivers argue with passengers about things that are unknown to the driver, not that a passenger is "tying it on". Let's face it, some drivers don't need much excuse.

I've no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Daytripper said:
The point of this thread is ticket gates at Leeds not accepting perfectly valid tickets. The gates at Leeds can't see what colour stock they're printed on.

We were a little off-topic on this and that's true. Bus drivers can though. And perhaps having it on special stock makes their life easier so they can see at a glance it's a Bus and Train Dayrover instead of a Train-only one.

Daytripper said:
I'm sure some petty little autocrat would love every single ticket to have its own stock, but in the real world, the writing on the ticket is what 99% of intelligent people will look at.

I've asked several times - are you suggesting drivers and conductors should ignore their training?

Daytripper said:
It says Conc' Day Rovers aren't available at Post Offices, and they are.

Ah, so everything else everyone's said must be wrong. Of course.

PG · 6 Nov 2013

Baxenden Bank said:
Regarding Leeds, surely the barriers are wrongly located as they are not on the boundary of railway property. A break of journey occurs when you leave railway property (except to change trains where this is necessary). Thus I ought to be able to pass and repass through the gateline, freely and as often as I like, in order to use the full range of railway and other facilities which lie outside the gateline.

Deerfold said:
Very few barriers are at the boundary to railway property.

If the barriers were right on the boundary of railway property how would you get to the ticket office to buy a ticket to get through the barriers?

YorkshireRider · 6 Nov 2013

Deerfold said:
STEEL Group Investments ran two short-lived routes in the Dewsbury Area.

They then became a community transport company with their website here:

http://www.sgict.org/ complete with appalling spelling. The website only gives the times for Monday-Friday services, without mentioning which days they run though they do run every day.

I assume it was the Metro Day (bus only) ticket though I'm not sure what advantage that gave them.

Thanks for that, yes that does seem odd that they could do that. Does the the bus company that issues the Metro Day ticket keep the money or do they then have to pay Metro?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Daytripper said:
As I've said, I can't remember the last time I saw one on "special stock".

With respect how many would you see except your own, unless you are rail/bus/metro staff?

Andrew Nelson · 7 Nov 2013

YorkshireRider said:
Thanks for that, yes that does seem odd that they could do that. Does the the bus company that issues the Metro Day ticket keep the money or do they then have to pay Metro?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They pay Metro. However, they pay Metro less than the Issuing cost which, I have been told leaves the Company with about £1.20.

So, Sg made 20p.

With respect how many would you see except your own, unless you are rail/bus/metro staff?

That's the point.
I get at least 2-3 per week.
Plus I see others on expense claims.

YorkshireRider · 7 Nov 2013

Daytripper said:
That's the point.
I get at least 2-3 per week.
Plus I see others on expense claims.

OK, thanks for the info, I guess if they are a not for profit bus company that would make sense.
OK fair enough 2-3 a week is a lot if your buying them from station ticket offices, the point in having the special stock does seem questionable then.

Grumpy · 7 Nov 2013

I joined the 11.48 from Burley in Wharfedale to Leeds today and bought a return ticket (W.Yorks concessionary)to Leeds from the guard.

On arriving at Leeds the barriers wouldn't accept the outward ticket, so had to divert through the manned barrier.

Returning this afternoon I tried the return ticket in the barrier and it accepted it

northernman · 7 Nov 2013

Hi Grumpy,

If you still have the outward failed portion and I could have it I can check what was wrong with it. Perhaps if you are passing through Leeds you could drop it off. PM me if you wish.

regards

Ian

Andrew Nelson · 7 Nov 2013

YorkshireRider said:
OK, thanks for the info, I guess if they are a not for profit bus company that would make sense.
OK fair enough 2-3 a week is a lot if your buying them from station ticket offices, the point in having the special stock does seem questionable then.

At the time, they were Steel Group Investments, so I'm not sure if they were "not for profit" at the time, I think it was just to annoy Arriva.

Grumpy · 7 Nov 2013

northernman said:
Hi Grumpy,

If you still have the outward failed portion and I could have it I can check what was wrong with it. Perhaps if you are passing through Leeds you could drop it off. PM me if you wish.

regards

Ian

Happy to.
PM sent

noddingdonkey · 8 Nov 2013

My understanding is that Day Rovers that are valid only on trains can be on any stock, those that are also on buses have to be on special stock so can't be issued on trains. Now that PlusBus means that bus drivers can be presented with an orange bus ticket it might be worth somebody giving Metro a nudge to rethink this, although I suspect their pay as you go ITSO MCard will solve all this in the next year or so.

In the meantime, it would be nice if the TVMs at Huddersfield could issue Train Day Rovers!

Deerfold · 8 Nov 2013

noddingdonkey said:
My understanding is that Day Rovers that are valid only on trains can be on any stock, those that are also on buses have to be on special stock so can't be issued on trains. Now that PlusBus means that bus drivers can be presented with an orange bus ticket it might be worth somebody giving Metro a nudge to rethink this, although I suspect their pay as you go ITSO MCard will solve all this in the next year or so.

Expect to be argued with shortly!

In the meantime, it would be nice if the TVMs at Huddersfield could issue Train Day Rovers![/QUOTE]

Even better at unstaffed stations...

YorkshireBear · 8 Nov 2013

The staff today were very good, making people with suitcases go back through the barriers and wait on the concourse rather than blocking up the whole station as usual. They still tried to, one woman decided it was best to move back after i barged through her after she ignored my excuse me please three times.

At points today you could got through the barriers and they were in a semi circle round you with their suitcases and no where to go.

Andrew Nelson · 8 Nov 2013

noddingdonkey said:
My understanding is that Day Rovers that are valid only on trains can be on any stock, those that are also on buses have to be on special stock so can't be issued on trains. Now that PlusBus means that bus drivers can be presented with an orange bus ticket it might be worth somebody giving Metro a nudge to rethink this, although I suspect their pay as you go ITSO MCard will solve all this in the next year or so.

In the meantime, it would be nice if the TVMs at Huddersfield could issue Train Day Rovers!

As not all busses have readers yet, I foresee problems.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Deerfold said:
Expect to be argued with shortly!

In the meantime, it would be nice if the TVMs at Huddersfield could issue Train Day Rovers!

Even better at unstaffed stations...[/QUOTE]

it would be nice if Northern didn't have misleading notices on the TVMs.
Not everybody wants to pay by card.

AndyHudds · 8 Nov 2013

Deerfold said:
Expect to be argued with shortly!

In the meantime, it would be nice if the TVMs at Huddersfield could issue Train Day Rovers!

Even better at unstaffed stations...[/QUOTE]

I mean, it can't be that hard to programme the machines to issue the tickets on special stock. I also think Metro need to address availability of scratch off tickets and the issuing of tickets from TVM's.

noddingdonkey · 8 Nov 2013

Daytripper said:
As not all busses have readers yet, I foresee problems.

Presumably there is a plan to address this? MetroCards are being replaced with MCards too, so any bus operator without the kit is at a bit of a disadvantage.

maniacmartin · 8 Nov 2013

Baxenden Bank said:
For example, if a ticket is not valid is it always returned?

If the ticket does not open the barriers then AFAIK the ticket is always returned

Some machines retain tickets at the end of a journey; others return them If I am claiming the fare back on expenses I need to know this in advance.

Or you could just ask for a receipt when purchasing the ticket and use that to claim expenses instead. The ticket is property of the railways and not yours to keep. If your employer won't accept receipts, take it up with your employer. The only reason you would need to retain your ticket is for Delay Repay

If the machine retains my ticket, before my journey is completed, how do I get it back does the gateline person have the ability to open up the machine and sift out my ticket?

Yes they do

anti-pacer · 8 Nov 2013

Tonight, I showed my Metrocard to the "Gateline Assistant", went through the gate, only to be hit in the chest by the gate, causing me to drop my Metrocard.

As I turned round to ask why this had happened, I saw the lady behind me get hit as well. I asked James, the assistant what he had done. His reply was "I'm letting one through at a time". Now normally we show our passes and the gates are kept open!

I told him he could have given us warning, to which he just shrugged his shoulders. I asked for his name and he refused to give it, covering his name badge up. Anyway, he moved his hand and I saw it clearly and have reported him to Northern Customer Services.

What is wrong with these people? There's no clear cut operation in Leeds station, with each Gateline Assistant seemingly choosing their own way of letting Metrocard holders through, but purposely acknowledging someone's pass then allowing the barriers to close on you is downright disgusting!

34D · 9 Nov 2013

noddingdonkey said:
My understanding is that Day Rovers that are valid only on trains can be on any stock, those that are also on buses have to be on special stock so can't be issued on trains. Now that PlusBus means that bus drivers can be presented with an orange bus ticket it might be worth somebody giving Metro a nudge to rethink this, although I suspect their pay as you go ITSO MCard will solve all this in the next year or so.

In the meantime, it would be nice if the TVMs at Huddersfield could issue Train Day Rovers!

This is correct. The bus industry are broadly happy with the rule changing, and would like to go further by selling the T&B tickets on the bus. As you say though, the PAYG M-Card will sort 80% of this (with the remaining 20% being visitors etc).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Daytripper said:
That's the point.
I get at least 2-3 per week.
Plus I see others on expense claims.

Hang on, so you have a weekly/monthly metrocard (that by definition must be for rail zones 1-2, 1-3 or 1-4) AND you also buy three train & bus dayrovers a week?

Maybe you'd be better off with a monthly/annual zone 1-5 M-card?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Daytripper said:
As not all busses have readers yet, I foresee problems.

This will need to be a group effort, but I am only aware of two operators in WY who don't scan ITSO passes:

Eddie Brown (wayfarer 3) who will stop being a metro operator in April
Tates (tgx150) who could upgrade if they wished to

Are there any others? I'm unsure about the various Huddersfield/Halifax area small ops, Stotts/TJ Walsh etc.

Metro have provided Ticketer's to schoolbus operators Square Peg and A&A Travel, so presumably they will do so for the rest of the proper ops too?

34D · 9 Nov 2013

Daytripper said:
As I've said, I can't remember the last time I saw one on "special stock".

Bus drivers argue with passengers about things that are unknown to the driver, not that a passenger is "tying it on". Let's face it, some drivers don't need much excuse.

The point of this thread is ticket gates at Leeds not accepting perfectly valid tickets. The gates at Leeds can't see what colour stock they're printed on.

I'm sure some petty little autocrat would love every single ticket to have its own stock, but in the real world, the writing on the ticket is what 99% of intelligent people will look at.

Here you go. Sorry for the poor quality.

Andrew Nelson · 9 Nov 2013

anti-pacer said:
Tonight, I showed my Metrocard to the "Gateline Assistant", went through the gate, only to be hit in the chest by the gate, causing me to drop my Metrocard.

As I turned round to ask why this had happened, I saw the lady behind me get hit as well. I asked James, the assistant what he had done. His reply was "I'm letting one through at a time". Now normally we show our passes and the gates are kept open!

I told him he could have given us warning, to which he just shrugged his shoulders. I asked for his name and he refused to give it, covering his name badge up. Anyway, he moved his hand and I saw it clearly and have reported him to Northern Customer Services.

What is wrong with these people? There's no clear cut operation in Leeds station, with each Gateline Assistant seemingly choosing their own way of letting Metrocard holders through, but purposely acknowledging someone's pass then allowing the barriers to close on you is downright disgusting!

You're lucky, often any acknowledgment is a luxury.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

34D said:
This is correct. The bus industry are broadly happy with the rule changing, and would like to go further by selling the T&B tickets on the bus. As you say though, the PAYG M-Card will sort 80% of this (with the remaining 20% being visitors etc).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hang on, so you have a weekly/monthly metrocard

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, I don't, I have a NCTS.

This will need to be a group effort, but I am only aware of two operators in WY who don't scan ITSO passes:

Eddie Brown (wayfarer 3) who will stop being a metro operator in April
Tates (tgx150) who could upgrade if they wished to

Are there any others? I'm unsure about the various Huddersfield/Halifax area small ops, Stotts/TJ Walsh etc.

Metro have provided Ticketer's to schoolbus operators Square Peg and A&A Travel, so presumably they will do so for the rest of the proper ops too?

Yorkshire Tiger, Tates, Sg, Longstaffs, and that's just in Dewsbury!!!!

Plus loads more small operators.

34D · 9 Nov 2013

Daytripper said:
You're lucky, often any acknowledgment is a luxury.

That is an unfair generalisation.

Daytripper said:
Yorkshire Tiger, Tates, Sg, Longstaffs, and that's just in Dewsbury!!!!

Plus loads more small operators.

SGI have Ticketer's, Tates I've already mentioned, and Yorkshire Tiger will be getting TGX250 (same machine as rest of Arriva) imminently.

Longstaff I didn't know about, so thanks.

Andrew Nelson · 9 Nov 2013

34D said:
Here you go. Sorry for the poor quality.

So, if they run out of / were never issued with "special stock", then the guidance that all tickets should be available at all ticket offices is null and voided?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I haven't been on a Sg this week, however, I have a staff member due in in about an hour, and he gets his weekender from them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

34D said:
That is an unfair generalisation.

Only if it wasn't true.

34D said:
SGI have Ticketer's, Tates I've already mentioned, and Yorkshire Tiger will be getting TGX250 (same machine as rest of Arriva) imminently.

Longstaff I didn't know about, so thanks.

Urban Gateline · 9 Nov 2013

anti-pacer said:
Tonight, I showed my Metrocard to the "Gateline Assistant", went through the gate, only to be hit in the chest by the gate, causing me to drop my Metrocard.

As I turned round to ask why this had happened, I saw the lady behind me get hit as well. I asked James, the assistant what he had done. His reply was "I'm letting one through at a time". Now normally we show our passes and the gates are kept open!

I told him he could have given us warning, to which he just shrugged his shoulders. I asked for his name and he refused to give it, covering his name badge up. Anyway, he moved his hand and I saw it clearly and have reported him to Northern Customer Services.

What is wrong with these people? There's no clear cut operation in Leeds station, with each Gateline Assistant seemingly choosing their own way of letting Metrocard holders through, but purposely acknowledging someone's pass then allowing the barriers to close on you is downright disgusting!

When I worked at the Gateline, I only ever let one passenger/group through at a time, this allows proper checking of tickets, if you keep the gate open then people tend to flood to that gate rather than using the other gates as they can't be bothered to put their tickets through! So there is method in the madness of letting one through at a time.

Each Assistant may operate the gates differently as there are no set rules as to how they must be operated, as long as it is done safely the staff have quite a bit of choice over how they operate the Gateline.

Solent&Wessex · 9 Nov 2013

34D said:
That is an unfair generalisation.

SGI have Ticketer's, Tates I've already mentioned, and Yorkshire Tiger will be getting TGX250 (same machine as rest of Arriva) imminently.

Longstaff I didn't know about, so thanks.

What do Jackson's of Silsden use? Do they need to be included on your list?

Incidentally what is the thinking on issuing tickets when an ITSO ENCTS pass is presented? Some operators such as Transdev do different things. Transdev in Keighley just read the pass and issue NO ticket, yet Transdev buses on 25 coming into Keighley from Lancashire do issue tickets. Pennine in Skipton issue tickets but then they don't read the cards so sort of have to.

34D · 9 Nov 2013

kwvr45 said:
What do Jackson's of Silsden use? Do they need to be included on your list?

Incidentally what is the thinking on issuing tickets when an ITSO ENCTS pass is presented? Some operators such as Transdev do different things. Transdev in Keighley just read the pass and issue NO ticket, yet Transdev buses on 25 coming into Keighley from Lancashire do issue tickets. Pennine in Skipton issue tickets but then they don't read the cards so sort of have to.

Unsure of Jacksons.

And yes, I most strongly feel that NO TICKET is the right solution

anti-pacer · 9 Nov 2013

Urban Gateline said:
When I worked at the Gateline, I only ever let one passenger/group through at a time, this allows proper checking of tickets, if you keep the gate open then people tend to flood to that gate rather than using the other gates as they can't be bothered to put their tickets through! So there is method in the madness of letting one through at a time.

Each Assistant may operate the gates differently as there are no set rules as to how they must be operated, as long as it is done safely the staff have quite a bit of choice over how they operate the Gateline.

The fact is though, he acknowledged my pass, I went through and then was hit by the closing barrier. This happened to others too, so he wasn't operating it with customer safety in mind.

Gateline staff - Leeds station.

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