Recently travelled on the Moorgate route up to Hornsey for the first time and noted how dated both the mainly unstaffed stations and rolling stock feel. Post Thameslink route upgrade and new stock, it seems a strong candidate for joining London Overground's network with 378s.
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Future of the Moorgate Route
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ntg
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It's often mooted (along with "double track the Canonbury Curve and run GN to Stratford services") but I think with the exact service pattern of Thameslink still somewhat up in the air and the continued running of services from WGC to Moorgate I'm not sure it's necessarily right for London Overground. Especially after all the fuss over Dartford, handing over more home countries services to TfL seems a little shaky than it did a few years ago. Might rest on how the next LO expansions goes...
Nym
Established Member
Or just order some walkthrough, dual voltage units with low density seating (similar to 455s) and run it in with FCC, install ATP in the form of ETCS between Finny Park and Moorgate, and as part of the upgrades of Finsbury Park provide the Moorgate Lines dedicated platforms to changeover between ATP/ATO and AWS/TPWS Manual.
This should be enough to be able to step Moorgate up to 12tph with 6tph to WGC and 6tph via the Loop in the peaks. A reversing siding immediately north of Finsbury Park or a station where it is possible to reverse can be added to provide 12tph throughout the day between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, for connections to Thameslink.
I'll do some more thinking on this later tonight when I'm more awake...
This should be enough to be able to step Moorgate up to 12tph with 6tph to WGC and 6tph via the Loop in the peaks. A reversing siding immediately north of Finsbury Park or a station where it is possible to reverse can be added to provide 12tph throughout the day between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, for connections to Thameslink.
I'll do some more thinking on this later tonight when I'm more awake...
CatfordCat
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I think I'm getting old... I can remember the 313/508 (etc) generation of EMU being new (and not being impressed with them then)
I'm sure there has been another thread on here saying that the spec for the new franchise includes a weekend service on the Finsbury Park - Moorgate bit, to allow for interchange at Highbury & Islington, and to reflect the increase in activity round trendy Hoxton.
Someone suggested there are loading gauge difficulties running anything 'standard' down to Moorgate, though.
I'm also aware at one stage that the Moorgate - Finsbury Park bit retained two person operation (presume due either to signalling or communications issues) - is that still the case?
I'm sure there has been another thread on here saying that the spec for the new franchise includes a weekend service on the Finsbury Park - Moorgate bit, to allow for interchange at Highbury & Islington, and to reflect the increase in activity round trendy Hoxton.
Someone suggested there are loading gauge difficulties running anything 'standard' down to Moorgate, though.
I'm also aware at one stage that the Moorgate - Finsbury Park bit retained two person operation (presume due either to signalling or communications issues) - is that still the case?
Nym
Established Member
Suppose that rules out LOROL operating it then if DOO isn't allowed for some reason.
Searle
Established Member
Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate services are all DOO, and there's never a member of staff on stations like Essex Road either :P
MK Tom
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The awkward thing is the loading gauge on the Northern City Line. Don't think a 378 or a 455 would fit down that tunnel?
CatfordCat
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I'm not that surprised that the DOO issue has been resolved
But I thought that one of the reasons for not opening weekends was the staffing requirements, e.g. lifts at Essex Road?
Depends how much money they want to spend - the line has its construction method in its favour - the segments are apparently iron semi-rings on brick bases...should be able to excavate down for more clearance if required...
There are 12 tph in the peak today, the TSGN spec requires this to go to 14tph in the high peak 90mins, although this increase can be flexed across the peak 3 hours. The spec also sees trains running late evenings and all weekends. Frankly the additional cost of this is minimal for the connectivity it brings, especially post Crossrail.
Whether a bidder offers to buy new trains remains to be seen. But ETCS is planned for 2018 ish, and ATO would be an obvious add on.
Whether a bidder offers to buy new trains remains to be seen. But ETCS is planned for 2018 ish, and ATO would be an obvious add on.
A trusted member on this forum told me that a 378 has already been tested down there. But I don't know if it's definitely true.
Aictos
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That actually sounds good although may I make a suggestion
There is already a Reversing Siding at Bowes Park so why not extend the proposed 12tph between Moorgate and Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace then run ECS to Bowes Park to reverse then restart the next service from Alexandra Palace.OR the other alternative I would going to suggest.....
Moorgate to Gordon Hill as 4tph
Moorgate to Hertford North as 1tph vice 2tph
Moorgate to Stevenage as 2tph vice 1tph (Limited Stops)
Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City as 5tph vice 2tph/3tph
OR the third way....
Moorgate to Gordon Hill as 4tph
Moorgate to Stevenage as 2tph vice 1tph (semi fast)
Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City as 6tph vice 2tph/3tph
Now as to the rolling stock, anyone who replaces the 313s with a 378/S Stock Met layout is great
Umm you're quite wrong in saying there are no staff at Essex Road - it's a safety requirement that staff are provided at Highbury & Islington, Essex Road, Old Street and Moorgate simply because of the location of the platforms for these stations.
They're there not to dispatch trains except in the case of Moorgate but rather to act there in a safety role ie evacuate the platforms in a emergency or manage disruption.
wondered when you'd say that! Because I heard that rumour too, on this forum. But I don't know if it's definitely not true.
Searle
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Class377/5
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A 378 has visited Hornsey but no-one has ever shown any proof of one don the NCL and no-one internally knows it happened for sure bar the rumor.
I would have thought that if it had, it wouldn't just be sent down only to find it got stuck somewhere - so presumably someone would work out whether it was very likely to fit before even trying.
I can't imagine any night time test being done that could damage the train, tunnel or platforms!
I can't imagine any night time test being done that could damage the train, tunnel or platforms!
The Fire Precautions (Sub-surface Railway Stations) (England) Regulations 2009 and the The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 require there to be a minimum number of staff (at the very minimum 2 but possibly more depending on the risk assessment) at all Sub-surface railway stations. Accordingly, there must be staff at the Sub-surface stations (which includes Essex Rd.) whilst it is open for customers.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I haven't used the 'Northern City Line' for about a decade, but when I last did I was quite impressed by the high-backed new seating that had been fitted to the WAGN 313s. It was certainly an improvement on the then-unrefurbished SWT 455s, Merseyrail 507/8s and Silverlink 313s I was more familiar with. The cleanliness was another matter though!
Are the dimensions of the Moorgate tunnels broadly similar to the Merseyrail tunnels? If so, perhaps some collaboration on new rolling stock might keep the costs down?
Of course the Liverpool loop has a few rather tight curves which I presume isn't such an issue for Moorgate- but perhaps a 'beefed-up' version of the S-stock platform would be ideal for both?
Are the dimensions of the Moorgate tunnels broadly similar to the Merseyrail tunnels? If so, perhaps some collaboration on new rolling stock might keep the costs down?
Of course the Liverpool loop has a few rather tight curves which I presume isn't such an issue for Moorgate- but perhaps a 'beefed-up' version of the S-stock platform would be ideal for both?
joeykins82
Member
Well Essex Road is on the mooted Crossrail 2 route. It's a prime contender for LO operation in my opinon.
Moorgate-Stevenage via Hertford North
8tph Monday-Friday peaks
6tph Monday-Saturday
4tph Sunday and late evenings Monday-Saturday
Moorgate-WGC
4tph Monday-Friday peaks only (to supplement the Thameslink stopping services)
Moorgate-Stevenage via Hertford North
8tph Monday-Friday peaks
6tph Monday-Saturday
4tph Sunday and late evenings Monday-Saturday
Moorgate-WGC
4tph Monday-Friday peaks only (to supplement the Thameslink stopping services)
swt_passenger
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That's a bit of a chicken and egg situation - surely manning the stations follows the service provision, and is part of the business case?
But it's academic now because there is a start date for 7 day operations in the TSGN ITT, and as discussed a few weeks ago, it isn't proposal, it is a statement.
alwaystouchout
Member
I thought the old Silverlink routes were originally taken over by LO so TfL could provide investment and improved frequencies on orbital routes around the capital, supplementary to the tube.
If Moorgate is going to get a high-frequency service seven days of the week, services that stretch quite a way out of the capital, what benefit would LO operation offer as opposed to the TSGN franchisee?
Metro routes like the Dartford lines, via Woolwich or Eltham, or the Chingford and Enfield Town lines out of Liverpool Street would be more suited to LO takeover.
If Moorgate is going to get a high-frequency service seven days of the week, services that stretch quite a way out of the capital, what benefit would LO operation offer as opposed to the TSGN franchisee?
Metro routes like the Dartford lines, via Woolwich or Eltham, or the Chingford and Enfield Town lines out of Liverpool Street would be more suited to LO takeover.
There will be less benefits to the public if the Moorgate line gets new stock, smartcard ticket acceptance the whole route and a higher service frequency.
These are all things that LO would have likely brought to the service - but in the new franchise it's going to happen anyway (well possibly not the new stock, but hopefully more 313s from Southern, or a modification that will add more internal room).
As such, there's not necessarily any gain - other than the fact that I think TfL would like to gradually move to having all metro services coming into London being part of a greater LU/LO network.
There was a point where both WGC and Hertford North were to get added in to the Oyster scheme, but that didn't happen. However, it did to Cheshunt (and boy, what a difference it makes). At that point, I'd have been very happy for LO to take over - but now I'm not really bothered either way.
These are all things that LO would have likely brought to the service - but in the new franchise it's going to happen anyway (well possibly not the new stock, but hopefully more 313s from Southern, or a modification that will add more internal room).
As such, there's not necessarily any gain - other than the fact that I think TfL would like to gradually move to having all metro services coming into London being part of a greater LU/LO network.
There was a point where both WGC and Hertford North were to get added in to the Oyster scheme, but that didn't happen. However, it did to Cheshunt (and boy, what a difference it makes). At that point, I'd have been very happy for LO to take over - but now I'm not really bothered either way.
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What Thameslink stopping service? (You might want to check the TSGN franchise ITT)
alwaystouchout
Member
Is it fair to argue that on most National Rail services where Oyster PAYG/Travelcards are valid, the only tangible difference between NR/LO/LU services is a lick of paint anyway?
I don't think building a unified LO network on all metro services coming into central London is necessarily a priority, apart from services on the Dartford and Chingford/Enfield Town lines, for example.
The other problem might be TfL's tendency to incorporate new routes into the orbital services, diverting them away from central areas, ie. the East London Line extension.
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Yes, that's a very fair argument and very much matches my own view, now.
Before the TSGN franchise made it a requirement to introduce smartcards AND to run a 7 day service to Moorgate, there were clear and obvious reason to want (and hope) LO would take over and make those changes.
But now it's going to happen anyway, I couldn't care one bit who will actually end up running the trains. One day I'll be able to stop buying paper tickets and I will also be able to go to Old Street or Moorgate any day of the week, and late at night (making my travel in and around east London a lot easier).
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
The Moorgate line is a bit of a time warp - (atmosphere wise) - and is now getting a deal busier - not just in the peaks , but by the solid redevelopment of the area around Old street and towards Hoxton - high tech business , student accomodation / flat convrsions in old warehouses etc + "uber-trendy" nightlife, so a move towards more and better services - upgraded station environment etc is a positive move for a line which has generally underperformed outside the old while collar market.
Mind you - I personally think 313 "repatriation" from the coast and a thorough refurb of the existing fleet + some modest resignalling for now will do (there are 3 "home" signals missing in the tunnels which could , if replaced, bump the service headways up towards 18tph. Until ATO comes in eventually when the proper resignalling is done and the 313's shuffle of this mortal coil.
Mind you - I personally think 313 "repatriation" from the coast and a thorough refurb of the existing fleet + some modest resignalling for now will do (there are 3 "home" signals missing in the tunnels which could , if replaced, bump the service headways up towards 18tph. Until ATO comes in eventually when the proper resignalling is done and the 313's shuffle of this mortal coil.
That depends on which franchise who provides the service. I'd largely agree with LO and Southern, yet Southeastern Metro is a poor comparison when the service drops to 2tph during evenings and Sundays, which is why TfL intervention would have been an improvement on providing the bare minimum as set in the franchise.
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