Improving the Connectivity of the South West

samhurst612 said:

This is an interesting point Grumpy. Compared to the train, in normal traffic conditions a car (based on google maps) would not be a quicker transport method before Plymouth, however after Plymouth, a car will become more and more effective the further into Cornwall you get....

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But that's from Plymouth via the slow A38. What about from Exeter via the much quicker A30? If you had some sort of coach priority measures to allow it to travel from St David's to the A30 much quicker than the current roads allow, a coach could travel from Exeter via the quicker A30 to either Bodmin Parkway, Par or Truro before the train even gets to Plymouth. You are definitely correct, though, in that the further along the A30 the coach goes, the more time efficient it is compared to the train.

BUT, given that such intercity coaches already exist, and they are quicker and a LOT cheaper than a similar train journey, why is the demand for them not going through the roof, yet train travel (both local and long-distance) is? I would guess for comfort and convenience, but they are only guesses.

Grumpy said:

Perhaps the best way to link Cornwall to the rest of the UK (and increase overall railway use) is by decent connecting express coaches from St Davids.

Similarly you might want to think about international connectivity by air. Plymouth airport has shut (its size was such that you couldn’t run economical aircraft out of it), and Newquay airport is just hanging on and doesn’t seem to have much of a future. What about a new airport west of Plymouth but handy for the A38 to serve west Cornwall and with an adjacent railway station e.g. somewhere like Trerulefoot? Giving Plymouth and Cornwall a decent gateway to Europe and beyond might do more for the economy than tinkering with closed lines.

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With respect, perhaps it isn't. The whole idea is to reduce road use (I cede that coaches are not so damaging as cars) and certainly not to encourage internal air travel. I assume our student friend will be carrying out a full environmental appraisal.

Grumpy said:

Cant disagree with most of the above but am surprised no-one’s raised tilting trains a means of reducing journey times.

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I have just spend the afternoon/evening listing the track speed changes at each mile/chainage from Exeter to Penzance and comparing with the fastest train of the day:

The 52 miles from Exeter to Plymouth if there was no starting and stopping and speed transitions were instant, could take 48mins at 65.4mph average. In actual fact, it takes 58mins at an average speed of 53.8mph. The slowest proportion of line was after Newton Abbot at 51.4mph compared to 58.1mph before.

The 81 miles from Plymouth to Penzance if there was no starting and stopping and speed transitions were instant, could take 84mins at 58.0mph average. In actual fact, it takes 112mins at an average speed of 43.3mph. This section of railway is very slow and the average speed past Redruth is 32.6mph for the final 16.8Miles... EXCRUCIATINGLY Slow

Certainly Electricity and tilting trains will increase acceleration and top speed respectively before Plymouth, but is post Plymouth a lost cause. Maybe we should swap to coaches?? As Grumpy said

samhurst612 said:

I have just spend the afternoon/evening listing the track speed changes at each mile/chainage from Exeter to Penzance and comparing with the fastest rain of the day:

The 52 miles from Exeter to Plymouth if there was no starting and stopping and speed transitions were instant, could take 48mins at 65.4mph average. In actual fact, it takes 58mins at an average speed of 53.8mph. The slowest proportion of line was after Newton Abbot at 51.4mph compared to 58.1mph before.

The 81 miles from Plymouth to Penzance if there was no starting and stopping and speed transitions were instant, could take 84mins at 58.0mph average. In actual fact, it takes 112mins at an average speed of 43.3mph. This section of railway is very slow and the average speed past Redruth is 32.6mph for the final 16.8Miles... EXCRUCIATINGLY Slow

Certainly Electricity and tilting trains will increase acceleration and top speed respectively before Plymouth, but is post Plymouth a lost cause. Maybe we should swap to coaches?? As Grumpy said

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On the occasions when I've used coaches for InterCity journeys, I've also found them to be excruciatingly slow (as well as cramped) and that was with motorways.

Given that Cornwall doesn't have much in the way of motorway, wouldn't the coach still be very slow, particularly west of Exeter ?

Also, the admittedly slow part of a train journey west of Exeter has to be seen in the context of the whole InterCity journey, and since passengers would likely be travelling to places such as London and Birmingham, the coach would still lose out in terms of speed when you take into account the rest of the journey.

samhurst612 said:

I have just spend the afternoon/evening listing the track speed changes at each mile/chainage from Exeter to Penzance and comparing with the fastest train of the day:

The 52 miles from Exeter to Plymouth if there was no starting and stopping and speed transitions were instant, could take 48mins at 65.4mph average. In actual fact, it takes 58mins at an average speed of 53.8mph. The slowest proportion of line was after Newton Abbot at 51.4mph compared to 58.1mph before.

The 81 miles from Plymouth to Penzance if there was no starting and stopping and speed transitions were instant, could take 84mins at 58.0mph average. In actual fact, it takes 112mins at an average speed of 43.3mph. This section of railway is very slow and the average speed past Redruth is 32.6mph for the final 16.8Miles... EXCRUCIATINGLY Slow

Certainly Electricity and tilting trains will increase acceleration and top speed respectively before Plymouth, but is post Plymouth a lost cause. Maybe we should swap to coaches?? As Grumpy said

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You have to be very careful when suggesting coaches. People do not like coaches they like to be able to stand up they don't see the point in not just using the car. I would look at how the speed can be potentially increased along the line after Plymouth.

samhurst612 said:

Maybe we should swap to coaches?? As Grumpy said

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I think if these propositions were worth a candle, they would have already been implemented don't you? Travellers don't like coaches (except those wanting a really cheap and nasty deal).

DavidBrown said:

But that's from Plymouth via the slow A38. What about from Exeter via the much quicker A30? If you had some sort of coach priority measures to allow it to travel from St David's to the A30 much quicker than the current roads allow, a coach could travel from Exeter via the quicker A30 to either Bodmin Parkway, Par or Truro before the train even gets to Plymouth. You are definitely correct, though, in that the further along the A30 the coach goes, the more time efficient it is compared to the train.

BUT, given that such intercity coaches already exist, and they are quicker and a LOT cheaper than a similar train journey, why is the demand for them not going through the roof, yet train travel (both local and long-distance) is? I would guess for comfort and convenience, but they are only guesses.

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The times were taken from Google Maps so the assumed route for all stations past Plymouth was down the A30.

Being a student, I have spent a lot of time going to Manchester by Coach. It is a traumatizing experience on most occasions. The reason they are not used is due to comfort & un-reliability (Crashes, traffic etc..). When i have a coach connection I have to either buy an open ticket or leave 2 hours connecting time. This could be solved by selling it in conjunction with train tickets and marketing it as a 'train replacement' with very comfy seats.
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YorkshireBear said:

You have to be very careful when suggesting coaches. People do not like coaches they like to be able to stand up they don't see the point in not just using the car. I would look at how the speed can be potentially increased along the line after Plymouth.

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Past Plymouth is something I haven't looked at yet but at a brief glance, seems to be a minefield of single track viaducts and difficult terrain.

samhurst612 said:

I have just spend the afternoon/evening listing the track speed changes at each mile/chainage from Exeter to Penzance and comparing with the fastest train of the day:

The 52 miles from Exeter to Plymouth if there was no starting and stopping and speed transitions were instant, could take 48mins at 65.4mph average. In actual fact, it takes 58mins at an average speed of 53.8mph. The slowest proportion of line was after Newton Abbot at 51.4mph compared to 58.1mph before.

The 81 miles from Plymouth to Penzance if there was no starting and stopping and speed transitions were instant, could take 84mins at 58.0mph average. In actual fact, it takes 112mins at an average speed of 43.3mph. This section of railway is very slow and the average speed past Redruth is 32.6mph for the final 16.8Miles... EXCRUCIATINGLY Slow

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I am bit lost at what you are trying to calculate there. Can you explain what you are showing? Where has the 48 mins and 65.4mph come from?

HowardGWR said:

With respect, perhaps it isn't. The whole idea is to reduce road use (I cede that coaches are not so damaging as cars) and certainly not to encourage internal air travel. I assume our student friend will be carrying out a full environmental appraisal.

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Well I'm not sure that the whole idea is to reduce road use, I thought the idea was to do something for the local economy. That's surely got to be about attracting visitors, jobs and employers to invest in the area and good transport links are key to that. They need more than retirees from the South East outbidding the local youngsters in the property market.. If you're trying to run a business in Cornwall but need to travel to get more customers then the links to the rest of the UK and beyond are terrible. Plymouth to Manchester is nearly six hours by train (clearly longer from Cornwall) whilst a flight would only be approx. one hour. However much you tinker with the railway you aren't going to get anywhere near that in the next 20 years. Similarly flights to a decent hub such as Amsterdam would be much more attractive to international companies seeking to invest in the area.

The Planner said:

I am bit lost at what you are trying to calculate there. Can you explain what you are showing? Where has the 48 mins and 65.4mph come from?

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I get the line speed at each distance down the line from the 'National Electronic Sectional Appendix' on Network Rail Website. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/10563.aspx

I then get a time for each segment of constant speed. all the segments added up gave a total time (Max Speed) and divided by length of track gives an average speed (at Max Speed). This assumes no stopping at stations, infinitely quick acceleration & deceleration and travelling at max signage speed at all times.

yorksrob said:

On the occasions when I've used coaches for InterCity journeys, I've also found them to be excruciatingly slow (as well as cramped) and that was with motorways.

Given that Cornwall doesn't have much in the way of motorway, wouldn't the coach still be very slow, particularly west of Exeter ?

Also, the admittedly slow part of a train journey west of Exeter has to be seen in the context of the whole InterCity journey, and since passengers would likely be travelling to places such as London and Birmingham, the coach would still lose out in terms of speed when you take into account the rest of the journey.

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The A30 is a good fast road. Whilst the train can be expected to be more comfortable, if you were travelling from the likes of London or Birmingham would you prefer to stay on the train or catch a connecting coach and knock over an hour off your journey? Time's money for some.

HSTEd said:

The SR route is too slow.
Need a high speed (125mph and up) alignment from Plymouth to Exeter

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I was viewing it more as an alternative route, with a semi-fast service from Exeter, calling maybe at Okehampton, Tavistock, Devonport & Plymouth only.

As for Cornwall, the total population is only 532,000. And with few large towns, it is unlikely to qualify for getting a lot of money for high speed, high frequency rail services.

See:-
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=31822

That does not mean no improvements. Perhaps Falmouth merits regular through services to Plymouth. Should Devonport & Saltash be served by more trains to/from the Penzance line, etc. ?

Newquay is more difficult - only 19000 people, at the end of a 20 mile branch with very low intermediate population. Can it justify through services onto the main line outside the tourist season ? Much larger towns lost their services in the Marples-Beeching era.

samhurst612 said:

. Maybe we should swap to coaches?? As Grumpy said

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Bit defeatist that. You should look at what can be done to up the linespeeds east of Plymouth where the traffic potential is maximised. What happened to the plans Virgin had to bring Plymouth-Birmingham down to 3 hours?

samhurst612 said:

Certainly Electricity and tilting trains will increase acceleration and top speed respectively before Plymouth, but is post Plymouth a lost cause. Maybe we should swap to coaches?? As Grumpy said

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Depends on how you compare. If you compare over each leg then post Plymouth could be seen as a lost cause, however from London to Exeter by train is about 2 to 3 hours, which would only get you about 1/2 way by coach (4 to 5 hours), therefore the train can run a LOT slower the rest of the way and still not be too bad in terms of time (5 to 6 hours London to Penzance by train).

Therefore anyone travelling longer distances will find that train travel is likely to be better, as any journey time savings made by switching to a coach would be fairly small over just staying on the train. Also any time savings can be seen as end to end savings, so cutting 15 minutes off London to Exeter also is seen by many as cutting 15 minutes of London to Plymouth and London to Penzance, even if no time savings are seen west of Exeter.

However it is often easier to make some quite noticable increases in line speeds when they are starting from a low base point. In that it tends to be easier to halve the journey time between two stations when the average speed is currently 30mph compared to where the avareage speed is currently 50mph.

Yes it could be possible to do away with all railways in Cornwall and replace them with buses, but that wouldn't go down too well and someone may find some example in history where something like that was tried and it didn't work out too well!

Grumpy said:

The A30 is a good fast road. Whilst the train can be expected to be more comfortable, if you were travelling from the likes of London or Birmingham would you prefer to stay on the train or catch a connecting coach and knock over an hour off your journey? Time's money for some.

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Personally I'd prefer to stay on train (and I think a large proportion of the travelling public would as well). If a coach really would take an hour off the journey time in Cornwall (and I'm not at all convinced that it would) wouldn't more people be taking that option now ?

Also, the A30 appears to take a more Northerly route than the railway, so if you were to run a coach service along it, it would either miss out quite a few of the major settlements, or you'd have to run lots of separate coach services that left the route to go to different settlements and I'm not sure how the economic case for this would stack up. The old Great Western main line actually does a good job at linking up the main settlements, albeit a bit slower than we'd like.

yorksrob said:

Also, the A30 appears to take a more Northerly route than the railway, so if you were to run a coach service along it, it would either miss out quite a few of the major settlements, or you'd have to run lots of separate coach services that left the route to go to different settlements and I'm not sure how the economic case for this would stack up. The old Great Western main line actually does a good job at linking up the main settlements, albeit a bit slower than we'd like.

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The coach will not provide any advantage to people East of Bodmin. However for those West of Bodmin, a coach to Exeter will arrive 30mins - 1hour quicker than the train.

And with combined ticket systems (same ticket for both) and coach Fast tracking this can be made as smooth as a train connection. Although I agree that the reliability of road transport is lower than rail (Much more factors and timings un-predictable)

People dont like rail connections, i am not sure what the opinion on changing to road will be. This can be seen on rail replacement services all the time where numbers vastly reduce.

samhurst612 said:

The coach will not provide any advantage to people East of Bodmin. However for those West of Bodmin, a coach to Exeter will arrive 30mins - 1hour quicker than the train.

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Perhaps there is a market for that in that case. However, I would expect it to be limited even as a proportion of passengers travelling from West of Bodmin to beyond the South West (I think the majority would prefer to stay on the train) and even that doesn't include the large proportion of travelers travelling within the South West (for which the A30 would be covering a different geographical market).

I don't think you coach could supplant the railway in that respect.

The Ham said:

However it is often easier to make some quite noticable increases in line speeds when they are starting from a low base point. In that it tends to be easier to halve the journey time between two stations when the average speed is currently 30mph compared to where the avareage speed is currently 50mph.
out too well!

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Moving away from the coach argument, what are the factors that effect the line speed. My limited knowledge suspects cornering capacity of rolling stock, stopping capacity on large hills and bumpy ground.

The cornering issue can be solves possibly by tilting trains although I'm sure they were tried a few years ago and soon made redundant. The bumpy issue will be sorted out naturally over time will it not. Every time the track is replaced it gets flatter and you can go faster. A good example of this is the massive differences seen at the two sides of Exeter St. Thomas

May be look at re opening the North Cornwall Line most of trackbed is still there. But it would have to subisied to a large degree, just depends how much we want to cut down on car use, its for sure buses are a waste of time in that area.

yorksrob said:

Perhaps there is a market for that in that case. However, I would expect it to be limited even as a proportion of passengers travelling from West of Bodmin to beyond the South West (I think the majority would prefer to stay on the train) and even that doesn't include the large proportion of travelers travelling within the South West (for which the A30 would be covering a different geographical market).

I don't think you coach could supplant the railway in that respect.

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Agreed and as I wrote before, if there was a market, it would have been satisfied. Just one point on environmental aspects, I thought the whole point of Cornwall, and much of Devon is that it is not (or is no longer) developed with heavy industry (minerals) and offices and that it *is* remote from urban life. That is its selling point to those who seek that environment. Plymouth is a different case and needs a reliable fast connection, which is why I recommended the SR be reinstated. I appreciate we need to see Cowley Bridge improved, but as The Planner wrote, that is (so far) a one off event and luckily at a quiet time of year. Then the coaches came into their own, running up to Tiverton and Taunton stations. I expect Cowley Bridge can perhaps be made even better safeguarded against extreme events, although I also suspect that more could be done about giving the Exe and Culm more flood plain space. The EA will doubtless be working on that right now.

As someone who doesn't drive Ive never been to Cornwall because of the dire public transport.

HowardGWR said:

Just one point on environmental aspects, I thought the whole point of Cornwall, and much of Devon is that it is not (or is no longer) developed with heavy industry (minerals) and offices and that it *is* remote from urban life.

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It is, but then again, whilst a large increase in heavy industry might not be desireable, the local population still require a diverse economy beyond the holiday trade, possibly including small scale technology etc. This is, however likely to be based around the main towns which is why I agree with you that speeding up the mainline (which links the main settlements) whilst improving connectivity with the other towns (eg linking Okehampton, Tavistock etc) will probably have better results for the region's economy.

Although the A30 is a good road from Cornwall to Exeter, access from the A30 to Exeter St Davids isn't great and at certain times of the day a Cornwall to Exeter connecting coach could be spending a lot of time stuck in traffic in Exeter.

GodAtum said:

As someone who doesn't drive Ive never been to Cornwall because of the dire public transport.

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Actually, Cornwall is one of the better places to get around by public transport. I've also holidayed in Dorset, Norfolk and North Yorkshire and whilst you'd be a bit limited getting around the others without a car, you could easily do a week in Cornwall just using the train (with perhaps some bus).

The journey down does take a while, but at least there's a buffet car and you can always take a book.
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Actually, a quick win that could be relatively easy might be to extend Newquay services to St Austell.

yorksrob said:

Actually, Cornwall is one of the better places to get around by public transport. I've also holidayed in Dorset, Norfolk and North Yorkshire and whilst you'd be a bit limited getting around the others without a car, you could easily do a week in Cornwall just using the train (with perhaps some bus).

The journey down does take a while, but at least there's a buffet car and you can always take a book.
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Actually, a quick win that could be relatively easy might be to extend Newquay services to St Austell.

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There is a lot of Cornwall that can be accessed by rail.
North Cornwall eg the area that was covered by the LSWR is poor.
It was replaced by buses thanks to Beeching, that and many other bus services did not last long.
[Often when a line has a temporary closure of many months quite a few find alternative methods of traveling, and the buses are not so popular]

Some Newquay services should go to Falmouth. (St Austell to Truro is a very popular journey for commuting and shopping)

A new route inland of Dawlish should be built, as proposed by the GWR in the 30's.
Exeter-Okehampton-Tavistock-Plymouth should be reopened.
The electrification scheme should extend to to Penzance.
Changing trains (Exeter??) would put Cornwall and Plymouth at a disadvantage.

For those interested the 1935/36 Great Western Railway plans for a new route from Exminster to Newton Abbot bypassing Teignmouth and Dawlish are held at the Devon Record Office Archives at Sowton in Exeter under the following references.


Great Western Railway (Additional Powers)* QS/DP/860* 1935
Contents:
1) Railway No 1 (Newton Abbot and Dawlish): via parishes of Kingsteignton, Bishopsteignton, Urban Districts of Teignmouth and Dawlish; length 8 ¾ miles; commencing and terminating at junctions with South Devon Railway.
2)Bridge, River Diversions and Lands at Exeter: parish of Upton Pyne and Borough of Exeter.

Included are sections of intended works and published map showing 1).
Scale: 25" to the mile
Surveyor: R. Carpmael (Engineer)
Plans (pen, ink) and book of reference
Great Western Railway. QS/DP/868 1936
Contents:
1) Railway No 2. (Dawlish and Exminster): via Urban District of Dawlish, parishes of Mamhead, Kenton, Powderham, Exminster; length 7½ miles; commencing at junction with railway No 1 (see QS/DP/860), terminating at junction with South Devon Railway; includes sections of railway and road diversions en route.
2) Lands at Totnes (and at Denham in County of Buckingham).
Scale: 25" to the mile
Surveyor: R. Carpmael (Engineer)
Plan (pen, ink) and book of reference


The then government had provided the funding for the “Dawlish avoiding line” with interest free loans to the Great Western Railway. It include some 4 tracking and a 2 mile tunnel through the Halden hills behind Teignmouth and Dawlish.
The Great Western Railway had also at that time surveyed a new route westward onward from Newton Abbot bypassing Totnes as well as the notoriously slow Dainton and Rattery Banks and re-joining the existing railway near Marley Tunnel with hopes of a further extension from there onto Plymouth itself and all to be engineered to a minimum 1 mile radius curvature for high speed. The project had advanced to the point that the land was bought and even “pegged out” prior to construction starting, unfortunately the start of the 2nd World War stopped the scheme progressing and the land was eventually sold off in 1949 given the war had left the country virtually bankrupt.
Bare in mind this project was being undertaken at a time when the former LSWR main line between Plymouth and Exeter via Tavistock/Okehampton was still open as a main line.
But all that is history now which has unfortunately left the legacy of a slow and indirect rail route west of Exeter that from Cornwalls and certainly from Plymouths point of view, Britain 15th largest city with a population of 256k, (Exeter and Torbay combined!) within its municipal boundary and some 350/400k within 10/15 miles of the city centre, is certainly no longer fit for purpose in the 21st century. Plymouth is certainly not some insignificant coastal town as some people try to make out but is the by far the largest conurbation in Devon and Cornwall and indeed the largest city south of a line from London to Bristol.
Consequently there is also a large year round market for rail commuting particularly from Cornish stations into Plymouth because of the relatively poor A38 road from the west into the city, resulting in some peak time HST regularly being full and standing from Cornwall into Plymouth, in complete contrast I must say to the FGW HSTs I see running virtually empty to Paignton outside the summer season with barely enough passenger on to fill one coach. Something wrong there.
It always amazes me how the powers that be conveniently seem to be in a state of denial when it comes to rail use from Plymouth and Cornwall probably because the main rail route west of Exeter is so in need of major and therefore expensive speed improvements, needing money they would rather spend elsewhere indeed anywhere it seems now rather than Devon and Cornwall west of Exeter.

The distance between Plymouth and Penzance is generally comparable to the distance between Shenfield and Maidenhead.
A direct train between the two on Crossrail will take ~90 minutes with far more station stops (even including skip stopping west of Paddington).

The train between Plymouth and Penzance takes at least 110 minutes, with most over 120, (the former has 11 calling points after Plymouth including Penzance, which is about as many as exist on crossrail east of Liverpool Street alone).

I think we can make it quite a bit faster.

Then all we need is a high speed line direct to Plymouth with a short spur to Exeter.

HSTEd said:

The distance between Plymouth and Penzance is generally comparable to the distance between Shenfield and Maidenhead.

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No, not really. Plymouth to Penzance is 80 rail miles [65 as the crow flies but that's not particularly relevant] compared to about 50 for Shenfield to Maidenhead.

This is too big a discrepancy for the numbers in the claim you are making in your post to stand up to numerical scrutiny.

Woody said:

But all that is history now which has unfortunately left the legacy of a slow and indirect rail route west of Exeter that from Cornwalls and certainly from Plymouths point of view, Britain 15th largest city with a population of 256k, (Exeter and Torbay combined!) within its municipal boundary and some 350/400k within 10/15 miles of the city centre, is certainly no longer fit for purpose in the 21st century. Plymouth is certainly not some insignificant coastal town as some people try to make out but is the by far the largest conurbation in Devon and Cornwall and indeed the largest city south of a line from London to Bristol.

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Quite where on earth you're getting your figures from, I don't know! According to Wikipedia, Plymouth is 256k, but that's the unitary authority area which includes places like Plympton and Estover. Exeter and Torbay combined is 298k, and that's not including anywhere else in the area like Newton Abbot, Exmouth or Cranbrook.

Consequently there is also a large year round market for rail commuting particularly from Cornish stations into Plymouth because of the relatively poor A38 road from the west into the city, resulting in some peak time HST regularly being full and standing from Cornwall into Plymouth, in complete contrast I must say to the FGW HSTs I see running virtually empty to Paignton outside the summer season with barely enough passenger on to fill one coach. Something wrong there.

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Which surely means that a better commuter service is required rather than high speed trains? Don't forget that it's utterly pointless having a non-stop Plymouth-Penzance service, as the vast majority of people will not be heading to Penzance. The nature of the area means that any service will have to stop at most stations as the population is very spread out.

It always amazes me how the powers that be conveniently seem to be in a state of denial when it comes to rail use from Plymouth and Cornwall probably because the main rail route west of Exeter is so in need of major and therefore expensive speed improvements, needing money they would rather spend elsewhere indeed anywhere it seems now rather than Devon and Cornwall west of Exeter.

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Having one or two trains with a few people standing up is NOT overcrowding by any stretch of the imagination. There are places in the south west far more deserving of significant investment. I've certaintly seen a lot more people on trains heading from Newton Abbot to Paignton than I have on trains heading west from Plymouth.

Oh, and Plymouth is nothing like as significant as it used to be. A high population does NOT make a place significant. Exeter is without doubt the main destination for a lot more people in Devon, and I would suggest that more and more people in Cornwall see Truro as their main destination rather than Plymouth. There is no reason any more why people would want to visit Plymouth, both in terms of commerce and leisure.