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R
RailUK Forums
At the moment, no. I don't expect it to change either. For one reason there is no demand for it to change.
While you could in theory learn the rules and regulations away from a TOC, you would not be able to complete the traction training or handling hours without access to rolling stock and Network Rail routes. You would have to already know where you were going to work and what class of train you were going to drive before starting as you would have to learn everything specific to their routes. It's not the same as a road vehicle licence where once passed you can drive anywhere.
Only TOC/FOCs have a safety case to train drivers so beware of anything you see on the internet offering you access to your "dream job" for only a few thousand £££'s!
Don't mean to be rude, but it sounds awfully like you either can't be bothered to take the assessment process or don't believe in yourself enough to do it, why pay yourself when TOCs will if you are the right person?
You choose what employer to work for by applying to your TOC of choice, coming from the airline industry that saw nothing but pay-to-fly schemes the way train companies train drivers is a privilege to be on the receiving end of!
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I don't see how you can call the application a 'lottery'. Fill in the application forms as best you can and if you get through sit the tests and interviews. The application process is designed to stop people getting the job if they arnt suited to it as that won't benefit you or them.
I suspect by 'lottery' you mean you have been knocked back already ? If so then all you can do is try again or look at addressing the reasons for being unsuccessful and getting the relevant experiences. If you have been knocked back then what makes you so sure this is the right job for you as it certainly isn't for everyone!
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I'm sorry but if you are put off by the competition or feel at a disadvantage then the job isn't for you, simple. He has a right to ask the question as much as I have a right to answer it, which is what he and I did.
I don't understand your last bit about paying for line training (something I never did and never will, 600hrs past that lark) and somone being quicker at the Group Bourdon? There is no entitlement to a drivers job beyond passing the tests, as much as you say you understand there is more your statement is pointless as passing the GB certainly doesn't get you the job, someone who gets the job (end result of your argument) is clearly the person best suited. Believe me, I fly with people I wouldn't want at the front of a train but they got to the pointed end because they had big banks..
Short answer, the ONLY way to separate yourself from the crowds is research into the role of a driver and match your experiences as best you can, do things to make yourself more employable. Not training yourself before applying. That isn't anything other than having the right attitude for the job. That is honestly the best advice I can give anyone, it's the advice I've been given by countless people I've asked so you can either spend time doing the right thing and get somewhere or get no where doing the wrong thing..
I don't understand your last bit about paying for line training (something I never did and never will, 600hrs past that lark) and somone being quicker at the Group Bourdon? There is no entitlement to a drivers job beyond passing the tests, as much as you say you understand there is more your statement is pointless as passing the GB certainly doesn't get you the job, someone who gets the job (end result of your argument) is clearly the person best suited. Believe me, I fly with people I wouldn't want at the front of a train but they got to the pointed end because they had big banks..
Short answer, the ONLY way to separate yourself from the crowds is research into the role of a driver and match your experiences as best you can, do things to make yourself more employable. Not training yourself before applying. That isn't anything other than having the right attitude for the job. That is honestly the best advice I can give anyone, it's the advice I've been given by countless people I've asked so you can either spend time doing the right thing and get somewhere or get no where doing the wrong thing..
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RJ
Established Member
I think it is a fair question the OP asked. In other transportation industries, such as buses, Heavy Goods Vehicles and aviation, it is possible to go to a private training school to acquire a licence to operate the vehicles. No harm in asking if a similar arrangement exists for train driving.
Whilst what has been said about this not applying to train driving may be true and valuable advice is often offered, what is up with this recurring theme of aggressive defensiveness when someone asks a question or makes a comment about train driving?
Whilst what has been said about this not applying to train driving may be true and valuable advice is often offered, what is up with this recurring theme of aggressive defensiveness when someone asks a question or makes a comment about train driving?
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Call it stress of the process? I'm not a driver yet so count me out from the school of 'defending drivers at all costs' thought, just sharing the advice I've been given and a few years of getting into the aviation industry which has theses 'pay-to' schemes. Paying to isn't really necessary when a TOC will fork out the 40-50k for you, is it?
IF someone did pay for their tickets, they'd still have to apply and go through the process anyways, so it's a real waste.
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RJ
Established Member
To be fair, I applied for the same job with seven different Train Operating Companies. I was offered the job three times, failed at the interview stage twice and didn't make the initial sift twice. Sometimes, what some TOCs want, others don't. Given it's essentially down to the whim of the person viewing the application or conducting the interview, there is always an element of luck involved. With high competition roles like train driving, I presume large numbers apply. It is possible that some applications won't be looked at so again, there is an element of luck.
Someone wholly new to applying wouldn't know that though, part of their research is coming on sites like this and asking people who may know the answer. It's exactly what I did with buses - paid to train instead of being paid to train. The application process with buses can be interminable and many bus operators have an ongoing recruitment drive for qualified drivers - but only periodic for trainee drivers. Being qualified at least enabled me to apply to all operators.
Given many TOCs advertise for qualified only drivers (not all with a minimum experience stipulation,) it's fair enough to look into being qualified privately.
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I don't think anyone is being defensive about driving, I was questioning why the OP claims the application is a lottery as I can't see it as 'luck', no more than any other job. It's down to TOCs having a large number if people to choose from but many employers have that luxury at the moment in any industry.
Beveridges
Established Member
There is no shortcut around the application process. If you can't pass it, then chances are, you won't like the job if you got it. Its there for your benefit not just the companies, so you shouldn't even want to find a way around it.
I'm not talking about the application forms here, as anyone can fail those repeatedly. I'm talking about the interviews and psychometric tests.
To make the application forms less of a lottery, join certain TOCs who recruit regularly in any role and you'll be driving in no time if driving is suited to you.
I'm not talking about the application forms here, as anyone can fail those repeatedly. I'm talking about the interviews and psychometric tests.
To make the application forms less of a lottery, join certain TOCs who recruit regularly in any role and you'll be driving in no time if driving is suited to you.
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Even if you did pay or could pay you will still have to pass the companies interview process so it won't be you chose your company, for instance, 22 qualified drivers who have been driving from 3 to 20 years went for a job at a TOC and only 2 positions were available so therefore 20 didn't get it.
baldieman
Member
Well said that man.
I too come from a commercial pilot background where enough money seems to buy the richest candidate the job these days. Trust me, on every level possible it is an appalling situation to find yourself in when faced with competition for a job who gain an advantage based on class and wealth.
PeteH
Member
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DB Schenker might be re-introducing their private driver assessment days in the new year. Not exactly a short cut to a job, but at least you will find out if you have the aptitude, and (if you pass) you won't necessarily have to go through the entire assessment phase with whichever TOC you apply for.
Has this info come from someone inside DB Schenker? I wanted to do this course earlier this year however they were not running them. Great idea to put yourself above the crowd and not make a TOC/FOC pay for your assessment. I would have thought that this would have been a great money spinner for them.
western Champion
Member
The average cost to train a trainee driver to the point where he / she becomes productive is around 150 K. There are six trainees in the school at the Virgin Trains Crewe Talent Academy at the moment. When we instructors / mentors went to Crewe a few weeks ago to be briefed on what will be required when the trainees come to us for their practical handling we were told the course was costing one million pounds to run.
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PeteH
Member
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Has this info come from someone inside DB Schenker? I wanted to do this course earlier this year however they were not running them. Great idea to put yourself above the crowd and not make a TOC/FOC pay for your assessment. I would have thought that this would have been a great money spinner for them.
I rang DBS in Doncaster about a week ago on behalf of a friend who is interested in becoming a train driver having followed a similar career to myself in the RAF. I had pointed him in their direction prior to my call only to find the facility missing from their website.
Whether it puts one above the crowd is a moot point, much debated on these fora.
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YES. In theory.
Rail Operations Group will arrange a medical (£490) and full Psychometric Assessment at OPC Watford (£750). They are also planning to run a full Driver training course which each candidate will have to pay for themselves (I do not have a price on that at the moment).
driver9000
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How much?!
Over £1000 before you've even begun!It seems this firm are the first of the leeches that are heading to our industry to extract thousands and thousands of pounds from anyone desperate enough to pay them. On the surface it all sounds wonderful to the aspiring driver - a firm willing to get you the new licence and train you up - but what they don't explain is that the licence isn't a licence as such, it is an indication to say you've met the EU medical and psychometric standard. The authority to drive is held on the certificate detailing your route and traction knowledge and is issued by your employer. No certificate, no driving. They also don't explain how they accumulate your handling hours needed to become a driver. Without those all you have is rules. Again without routes or traction you are useless. I'd be very wary of any company offering these services given the costs involved in training drivers up. I'm not being elitist and holier than thou I don't want to see people promised the big amazing job only to find themselves tens of thousands of pounds out of pocket nor do I want to see standards slip because of these firms.
Looking at this firms website they also claim to be an agency for spot hire drivers. How will they manage the competencies of these drivers? Personally I wouldn't trust this firm but each to their own.
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Complete waste of money in my opinion and another way to get cash from desperate people. It worries me this as how can they train someone and gain 225 hours in the seat with a DI if they are not using a TOC/FOC to do it?
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No, in practice. See post #2 or any other following... :roll:
How much?!
It seems this firm are the first of the leeches that are heading to our industry to extract thousands and thousands of pounds from anyone desperate enough to pay them. On the surface it all sounds wonderful to the aspiring driver - a firm willing to get you the new licence and train you up - but what they don't explain is that the licence isn't a licence as such, it is an indication to say you've met the EU medical and psychometric standard. The authority to drive is held on the certificate detailing your route and traction knowledge and is issued by your employer. No certificate, no driving. They also don't explain how they accumulate your handling hours needed to become a driver. Without those all you have is rules. Again without routes or traction you are useless. I'd be very wary of any company offering these services given the costs involved in training drivers up. I'm not being elitist and holier than thou I don't want to see people promised the big amazing job only to find themselves tens of thousands of pounds out of pocket nor do I want to see standards slip because of these firms.
Looking at this firms website they also claim to be an agency for spot hire drivers. How will they manage the competencies of these drivers? Personally I wouldn't trust this firm but each to their own.
Don't shoot the messenger.... Just answering the question.....
Regards assessments:~
EWS was previously an option for "private" candidates but alas no more. OPC as I'm sure ye ALL know will NOT take "private" candidates for assessment. They will only assess candidates sent to them by a "Company". So I for one welcome ROG as a "middle man" who can send a batch of candidates to OPC for assessment. ROG become the "customer" of OPC in this relationship, but at least it affords an opportunity for candidates to pay for their own assessment SHOULD THEY SO DESIRE.
Regards Driver training:~
My understanding is ROG will be working with a TOC to deliver the training. Naturally I expect ROG will have to pay the TOC for the privelege, and I imagine the candidate will pay the ROG for the privilege. ROG could deliver the "classroom" work themselves (I'm not saying they will; just pointing out that they could). Or they could also leave that in the hands of the TOC. It is immaterial to the candidate as he/she will have to bear the costs in any case.
Whether or not ye are for or against the above assessment/training option, it does at least offer an alternative option to those who can afford it. In SOME respects similar to those who pay for their own Pilot training.
Regards Drivers on hire:~
For the record, ROG already DO hire Drivers out to TOCs/FOCs. Don't ask me how the Saftey Case or competency is managed as I'm nothing to do with ROG. I can only "assume" the TOC/FOC who HIRES a Driver for the day takes them under that TOC/FOC own Safety Case, and I further assume that as the Driver is currently a Driver for his Employing TOC/FOC then there is no question of the Driver's competency.
As an example, I know of at least one (ex Northern Spirit) Heavy Haul Driver, who was hired back to Northern Spirit by Heavy Haul. And what about the Heavy Haul Drivers who Drive Trans Penine Trains? And what about the Northern Spirit subsequently Arriva Trains Northern subsequently Northern Drivers who work ScotRail services? And of course, I myself, when working for Central Trains (privatised), was hired to Regional Railways North East (not privatised).
But Central Trains only existed after Regional Railways disappeared. Both were then part of privatisation
Unless you mean Northern Spirit of course.
I must say I do find these vast figures bandied around for the cost of driver training a bit baffling. Fag packet calculations lead me to something like 25 grand, apart from the trainee's salary which is obviously not a factor if you're paying for yourself.
Assuming five trainees on a course for a year:
- 1/5 of a trainer's salary plus HR costs say 12k
- Random contribution to training school costs 10k (which is a whole lot of simulator running costs, heating, photocopying and all that) (don't forget that most things in a training school like the fittings and the simulators last for YEARS so can be spread over that time as a cost)
- Management time say 2k (that's a fortnight of exclusive time with a manager which is way over the top)
- Extra bit of salary for your DI 2k
- Can't think of much else.
rich200tdi
Member
NWR apprentices cost the company around 65 grand each over 3 years
Right, that sounds like a real cost over three years and one I can believe given that a driver is mostly productive after one year.
Ta
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