FGW coffee service takes a downward lurch

londiscape · 16 Dec 2013

Mojo said:
You coffeeheads get so wound up when there is a change, or what you want is unavailable. I remember when our work kitchen ran out of coffee and the moaning went on non-stop for hours. In contrast us tea drinkers just said "oh well" or went elsewhere when the tea bags ran out.

Try drinking tea instead, you'll feel a lot more chilled out

But tea is so soothing, what about when I need to be tense?

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Flamingo · 16 Dec 2013

Goatboy said:
This is a shame if its the real reason why the comp coffee is of lower quality.

Do FGW really have such a low opinion of the people they employ they don't trust them to honestly vend coffee?!

Grow up. Every business that employs people in a position where they take cash has procedures in place to reduce theft and prevent fraud. This is also to protect staff from false accusations if mistakes happen.

Regarding the coffee, if you read my post, the coffee is DIFFERENT, not INFERIOR.

If you can't tell the difference, get a dictionary.

Dreadnought · 16 Dec 2013

I remember when EMT used to do free drinks on their trains and that was always a 'make your own' cup of water and a sachet/tea bag so fGW are not the first to use this approach.

Flamingo · 16 Dec 2013

Squaddie said:
That wasn't the original complaint, but the conversation has moved on and I am now aware of something that I find even more surprising than the quality of the coffee I was "served" on board the train.

Is that the official FGW response to a customer's dissatisfaction with the service, or are you being insulting in a personal capacity? Are we only allowed to complain about the most important things in our lives? If that were the case, half of this forum could be locked immediately.

No, I don't do the official response, Ollie and the long-suffering bods on Twitter and Customer Services do the touchy-feely crap. You would get something from them that resembled a grovelling apology, and possibly some vouchers for the buffet.

I'm just telling you (in a bowdlerised version) what would be said about you by me in the crew messroom if I had to waste my time on my train listening to you whinging that you couldn't get ground coffee for free on your First Class ticket, when I might have been needed to assist another of the 300+ passengers who actually had a real problem.

Captain Chaos · 16 Dec 2013

I've drunk both the paid for stuff and the free stuff. I drink Coffee constantly. AMT is my Number 1 choice. I'm struggling to see the problem here. It really isn't that different to me. I'd happily consume both.

causton · 16 Dec 2013

To me, coffee is coffee, unless it's from somewhere fancy (e.g. flavoured with syrups, which I don't expect free or paid for on a train! Or something like AMT's Chilli Hot Chocolate... mmm)

I would agree AMT is my favourite place, all the stuff I buy from Costa is too watery (I had their iced lemonade after I had Caffe Nero's iced lemonade a couple of days before and I couldn't drink it, it was like lemon washing up liquid and so watery!)

...but I don't really drink all that much coffee!

Goatboy · 16 Dec 2013

Flamingo said:
Grow up, Every business that employs people in a position where they take cash has procedures in place to reduce theft and prevent fraud.

What an unusually caustic response.

There are sensible fraud measures and there is plain paranoia - other firms manage to dispense complimentry coffee without needing to watch its staff like they are theives. At the end of the day it's cheap coffee they are handling not diamonds.

Come on, you can't honestly think it's reasonable to think so little of your catering staff that you can't even trust them to dispense coffee without commiting fraud? It's ludicrious, I honestly hope that this isn't the reason at all because I very much doubt even a fraction of staff are dishonest enough to make it worth the bother for 'fraud' reasons.

I'm honestly suprised, as a member of staff yourself I thought you'd be grateful for a member of the public sticking up for staff and finding it difficult to beleive they'd orchestrate coffee fraud.

I suspect the reason is entirely more simple - cost. The ground coffee costs more, the first class coffee is far cheaper to produce. Therefore they reduce cost by giving away the cheap stuff and saving the good stuff for those who are paying for it.

tsr · 16 Dec 2013

To be honest, the newer "liquid" instant coffee, or whatever it is they serve in First on FGW, isn't that bad at all. Certainly not awful and not too far from the freshly-ground stuff for me to be dissatisfied. I don't know about the instant granules, on the other hand, so can't comment on those - and I would be a bit annoyed if I was overcharged according to the price list or if it tasted really awful - but other than that, I wouldn't have much of a problem.

Flamingo · 16 Dec 2013

I'm not going to engage in a discussion, on an open forum, about cash and stock handling procedures.

I'll just repeat for the hard of thinking that there are two different stocks of products kept, one as saleable, one as complementary for use in First Class, or as directed by the Train Manager.

There is no difference in quality between the saleable and complementary item, the main reason for having them is for stock control purposes.

Not all saleable stock have got a complementary equivalent. Ground coffee is one such item. Biscuits and crisps are other items where the saleable items have a wider selection.

(Reading some of the posts on this thread, I really think that some people would whinge if their arrse was on fire and someone peed on them to put it out...)

Yew · 16 Dec 2013

island said:
Only on weekdays though AFAIK

And you need a free Ikea family card too

6Gman · 16 Dec 2013

Flamingo said:
(Reading some of the posts on this thread, I really think that some people would whinge if their arrse was on fire and someone peed on them to put it out...)

And arses never caught fire under BR.

dk1 · 16 Dec 2013

Captain Chaos said:
I've drunk both the paid for stuff and the free stuff. I drink Coffee constantly. AMT is my Number 1 choice. I'm struggling to see the problem here. It really isn't that different to me. I'd happily consume both.

Man after my own heart. AMT, nobody can touch them

sheff1 · 16 Dec 2013

Dreadnought said:
I remember when EMT used to do free drinks on their trains and that was always a 'make your own' cup of water and a sachet/tea bag so fGW are not the first to use this approach.

Yes and after I tried this 'offering' once I made sure I never went near it again - undrinkable. The next thing I know is that the AMT outlet on Sheffield station was closed down despite a passsenger petition to keep it open. Now AMT at St Pancras has gone the same way.

Is this a concerted effort to stop decent coffee being drunk on the Midland Mainline ? I hope AMT is still in situ at Leicester as I will be alighting there in the near future.

Mojo said:
Try drinking tea instead, you'll feel a lot more chilled out

I tried tea once. It made me feel nauseous rather than chilled.

bb21 · 17 Dec 2013

Goatboy said:
This is a shame if its the real reason why the comp coffee is of lower quality.

Do FGW really have such a low opinion of the people they employ they don't trust them to honestly vend coffee?!

I think Flamingo has a very good point about stock audit.

This is not only about trust. It is also about protecting staff. Imagine the scenario: Chris and Stewie are going through a rough patch, and Stewie accuses Chris of pocketing some of the dosh from the sale of coffee when this is not the case. With separate stock it is clear what really happened, but without separate lines you just get muddy water. Similarly dodgy goings-on can also be prevented by having separate lines. (Of course other activities such as selling complimentaries and not running them through the till system cannot be detected this way, but how can you usually without additional mechanism?) Whether trust or protection for staff is more a consideration in FGW's decision is hard to say, but that is indeed pretty common practice AFAIK.

EMT at one stage had RailGourmet staff dishing out complimentary tea and coffee from the same stock as those sold to Standard pax at weekends, while a running total is kept, but that soon changed. (Of course they now run buffets at weekends and I don't know how the system works these days.)

richw · 17 Dec 2013

I don't fall for this seperate stock theory, and if that's the real reason it is utter stupidity from FGW. I use various high street coffee retailers and collect their loyalty stickers etc, and cash them in for free cups of coffee when I've sufficient. All of those companies give me the same product, and run it through the till. I've a McDs receipt here from this morning and it shows V-Capp for my free coffee. Their stock levels now know I've had a free cappucino and the relevant stock levels.

High Dyke · 17 Dec 2013

Mojo said:
You coffeeheads get so wound up when there is a change, or what you want is unavailable. ...

Try drinking tea instead, you'll feel a lot more chilled out

It'll be all that caffeine...

Tea is the way....though i've just had a mug of M & S coffee, and yes i did have to make it myself! Probably because i'm the only person in here... The Mem doesn't drink coffee, and tolerates me having one, so she always has tea or tap water. She's probably on her 4 or 5 brew of tea by now since starting work this morning.

Is it really too much to ask when you are given the sachet (or teabag) and told to get on with it. Come on peeps...do you expect people to come round your house and make you a drink when you need one?

Getting back to the topic. I don't usually purchase coffee on the train - don't like Starbucks - so how is it produced at the cafe-bar? Do they use ground coffee? Is it ground before your very eyes (a-la Costa etc...); or is it pre-ground and just put into a machine to produce a hot drink, much like any other drinks vending machine is?

AndrewP · 17 Dec 2013

Squaddie said:
No, I think the "complimentary" coffee available to first class passengers should be exactly the same coffee as is normally available to buy, not an inferior product. The actual quality of that coffee is of secondary importance here.

Not sure this would work if the alternative was the bean to cup machine with espresso and milk. These drinks take a significant amount of time to make and you have the time for ordering etc - way to long for a quick coffee on a short journey.

For any mass coffee service you need to have a middling coffee - not too strong, not too weak, good flavour but not too much - so many will like it but no one will actually hate it. This means something like a medium roast Brazilian or Columbian Arabica.

Therefore you can either use a filter machine or a decent quality instant (I would go for the latter using a whole bean instant ideally branded from Starbucks or Costa).

Re the cost of drinks there is no drink costing more than 35p in any branded coffee shop - most of the price goes on property and staffing - hence the joke:
I once saw someone cause hundreds of pounds worth of damage in a Starbucks - they knocked over a tray of drinks!

I now drink only decaf coffee which poses its own problems (20-30+ cups a day of caffeinated could never be healthy) and if I want a really good coffee I will buy before I board as you can never be sure what you can get although you typically get a sachet based instant from 3663 or Brakes' own brands however I have always been able to get a cup of decaf with every train operating company I have been with. Well done TOCs and their staff.

Finally, and this may be worthy of its own thread, my nomination for best coffee near a mainline station is Monmouth Coffee Company, Borough Market by London Bridge.

jimm · 17 Dec 2013

richw said:
I don't fall for this seperate stock theory, and if that's the real reason it is utter stupidity from FGW. I use various high street coffee retailers and collect their loyalty stickers etc, and cash them in for free cups of coffee when I've sufficient. All of those companies give me the same product, and run it through the till. I've a McDs receipt here from this morning and it shows V-Capp for my free coffee. Their stock levels now know I've had a free cappucino and the relevant stock levels.

Okay, then try this for an additional theory. On weekdays, most of the complimentaries in FGW first class are served from a trolley, which does not have a coffee machine fitted, unlike your favourite McDonald's outlet - or an FGW buffet - so the staff carry hot water on the trolley to make tea and coffee in the coaches. The alternative would be them traipsing up and down carrying hot drinks all the time, and slowing down service.

And remember that, as others have tried to point out up this thread, but would no doubt cut no ice whatever with the original poster, who took until post 39 (and not all that clearly at that point) to indicate what we were actually talking about was a cup of first class complimentary coffee, that so-called complimentary items are paid for out of the money received by the TOC (or airline, etc) for a ticket, or in the case of the 'free' cups of coffee from Waitrose that the original poster is so excited about, from all the other stuff purchased by holders of the Waitrose Card while visiting its shops - a point made by Arctic Troll.

Richw, as you said above, the cost of producing a cup of tea or coffee is a rather small part of the price charged to paying customers, so Waitrose probably won't go broke offering this 'deal' - but you can be sure that if it does start to cost them too much, the offer will be withdrawn, just the same as the TOCs tinker around with what complimentary items they offer, depending on what it is costing them to puchase stock.

Squaddie · 17 Dec 2013

jimm said:
And remember that, as others have tried to point out up this thread, but would no doubt cut no ice whatever with the original poster, who took until post 39 (and not all that clearly at that point) to indicate what we were actually talking about was a cup of first class complimentary coffee...

It did not even occur to me that the "complimentary" coffee served to first class customers on presentation of a ticket was different from the coffee available for general purchase. Why should it? It's a completely ridiculous concept, and not one that is even hinted at in FGW's advertising material.

But, thanks to the knowledgeable forum members, I now a clear understanding of the situation:

1. FGW does serve proper, ground coffee on its trains.
2. However, FGW also keeps a stock of poor quality instant coffee which is given to first class customers who take up FGW's offer of a free coffee.

The impression formed of FGW is one of a mean, penny-pinching company that does not like its customers nor trust its staff, but now that I know the facts I'll lower my expectations next time I travel.

(Incidentally, FGW has already responded to my comments. The letter was a standard cut-and-paste job but the voucher will come in handy).

bnm · 17 Dec 2013

What a ridiculous reason for complaint, but well done for getting a Catering Voucher out of Customer Services for such a trivial reason.

FGW 1st Class complimentary coffee. Hits the spot for me. Never known it to be of poor quality or in any way inferior to the paid for coffee. All the better for being free and served at seat. And on a recent 3 hour journey I was offered service 5 times. So I could've had 5 coffees, 5 packs of biscuits, 5 pastries/cake, 5 orange juices and 5 pieces of fruit.

jon0844 · 17 Dec 2013

On trains in Denmark and Sweden where you simply get your own tea and coffee in first class, you just take it from pump dispensers (which staff refill as required) and take any biscuits/buns/fruit on offer.

Scandinavians love their coffee - but until fairly recently didn't go in for the all the fancy coffees that we gladly pay £2-3 for. It was probably not until they watched TV series' like Friends that they even got the desire to start asking for skinny lattes and the like - the time when coffee shops suddenly became a big thing in the UK and started popping up everywhere*.

Is it so bad for a TOC to offer standard tea and coffee on a complimentary basis, while also selling more expensive types to order?

* Not knocking them - many make lovely coffee, but let's admit it; for most it's as much a fashion statement than anything else.

Tetchytyke · 17 Dec 2013

It isn't just FGW who have different products for sale compared to the complimentary offer. Virgin is exactly the same; they don't give you a complimentary cup of bean-to-cup coffee, they keep a flask of pre-made coffee at the shop when there is no first class host.

I'm not sure that it is for "accounting" purposes though, as any decent EPOS can have a button for "first class complimentary issue".

The likes of East Coast get around it by getting their first class host to serve it from a flask (well that and taking out the bean-to-cup machines GNER/NXEC installed as part of the Mallard upgrade). I doubt that the flask contains anything different to what Virgin or FGW serve.

The comments about RailGourmet are a bit different though. It isn't the case now, but for a while RailGourmet were trying to get around employment laws by calling their catering staff "self employed"; they "rented" the trolley and "bought" the goods for sale from RailGourmet. This was definitely the case on National Express' Stansted Express catering service, and a very interesting employment law training case study it made too.

Flamingo · 17 Dec 2013

Squaddie said:
It did not even occur to me that the "complimentary" coffee served to first class customers on presentation of a ticket was different from the coffee available for general purchase. Why should it? It's a completely ridiculous concept, and not one that is even hinted at in FGW's advertising material.

But, thanks to the knowledgeable forum members, I now a clear understanding of the situation:

1. FGW does serve proper, ground coffee on its trains.
2. However, FGW also keeps a stock of poor quality instant coffee which is given to first class customers who take up FGW's offer of a free coffee.

The impression formed of FGW is one of a mean, penny-pinching company that does not like its customers nor trust its staff, but now that I know the facts I'll lower my expectations next time I travel.

(Incidentally, FGW has already responded to my comments. The letter was a standard cut-and-paste job but the voucher will come in handy).

I'm glad you were pleased with the official reply, (in so far as you are ever satisfied with anything).

If you would care to drink tea next time - oh no, wait, we use different water for First and Standard class...

jon0844 · 17 Dec 2013

It's a shame the HSTs don't have retention tanks, or you could run it through a filter and use it as a water supply. Probably wouldn't even need to add tea or coffee to add flavour.

Ultimately, I fully accept that if you are given free tea and coffee anywhere - it's almost certainly going to be made in bulk, so as to be quick and easy to give to multiple people (or let them serve themselves). Most events I attend work this way, as to make a nice fresh cup with one or two shots of espresso and frothed milk would take ages!

I grew up drinking coffee that was merely filtered in a coffee machine, and then a long time drinking instant. It's only in the last 5-6 years that I've got into coffee, and have begun to pay the premium when out - or at home with our nespresso machine. Yet, I can still drink coffee that comes from a pump dispenser. And it's still coffee, so no breach of trade descriptions or anything.

jimm · 17 Dec 2013

Squaddie said:
It did not even occur to me that the "complimentary" coffee served to first class customers on presentation of a ticket was different from the coffee available for general purchase. Why should it? It's a completely ridiculous concept, and not one that is even hinted at in FGW's advertising material.

But, thanks to the knowledgeable forum members, I now a clear understanding of the situation:

1. FGW does serve proper, ground coffee on its trains.
2. However, FGW also keeps a stock of poor quality instant coffee which is given to first class customers who take up FGW's offer of a free coffee.

The impression formed of FGW is one of a mean, penny-pinching company that does not like its customers nor trust its staff, but now that I know the facts I'll lower my expectations next time I travel.

(Incidentally, FGW has already responded to my comments. The letter was a standard cut-and-paste job but the voucher will come in handy).

Well Arctic Troll has given the lie to your contention that FGW is in some way a uniquely "mean, penny-pinching company" with both the saintly Virgin and saintly East Coast doing much the same thing, which leads me to suspect that EMT and XC are doing it as well.

Certainly on the odd occasion I have travelled in first class on XC Voyagers at the weekend, the steward always brought hot drinks from the galley at the front of the train, not once did they come off the trolley that goes through standard, suggesting they are also using a separate set of stock for complimentaries.

Flamingo · 17 Dec 2013

I asked the CH at work today, the coffee from granules for sale is £1.80, ground coffee is £2.30 for Americano, £2.50 for latte/cappuccino.

As I said, the First Class coffee is made up in flasks, from a coffee concentrate. Not from the left-overs in the filter tray, as some would have you think.

timbo58 · 17 Dec 2013

jimm said:
Simply sounds like a case of a broken coffee machine to me. All the FGW HST buffets are fitted with one on the shelf behind where the stewards stand.

If the machine breaks down, then they will use hot water from the boiler in the kitchen and some instant so that some sort of service is still available, even if not up to your exacting standards in "this day and age" (those of us who remember BR buffets in the 1970s are having a good laugh at this point) though perhaps the steward might have pointed out there was a problem.

Spot on IME.
I left FGW nearly 5 years ago and they all had (HSTS and 180s anyway) some fancy overpriced coffee machine.

After all why bother flogging a coffee at 85p when you could flog one for £2?
Firstgroup have made it quite clear since they took over GW they were only in it for the money anyway.

addendum: I now see you were on about 1st class complimentary coffee.

Must admit I was on trains every day for at least a year after coffee machines were added and no one (and I mean not one person) ever made the complaint they thought they would get the same as the buffets fancy coffee for free in 1st.
You can take it from me, that I heard EVERY other complaint that could possibly be thought of many, many times however, from the seats were uncomfortable all the way to the newspaper was folded incorrectly (I sh*t you not).

That doesn't mean your complaint isn't valid but as Jimm has very clearly and succinctly explained IF it were an issue that FGW were to have a large amount of complaints about the likelihood is that complimentary hot drinks would simply be withdrawn from 1st class, if every passenger wanting a hot drink had to have it dispensed by the buffet then:
a) standard class could go whistle as all the coffee machines time would be utilised supplying umpteen drinks to first, and b) coaches G &H would go wanting also as coach F would quite easily take until the 3rd stop to supply!

FWIW I agree with your comment that FGW don't care about their staff: they are the palest of imitations to Intercity, whom most staff IME were not just happy but proud to be in the uniform of.
I know I was in any case.

Tetchytyke · 18 Dec 2013

jimm said:
Certainly on the odd occasion I have travelled in first class on XC Voyagers at the weekend, the steward always brought hot drinks from the galley at the front of the train, not once did they come off the trolley that goes through standard, suggesting they are also using a separate set of stock for complimentaries.

IME XC use better coffee in first class (fresh ground from a cafetiere) than they do in standard (sachets of Starbucks Via slop).

FGW coffee service takes a downward lurch

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