Brighton to Woolston route Not London

I have been using this ticket for a year or so know when I travel from Waterloo to Woolston. I have an annual paper travelcard Wimbledon to London Zones 1-3 which covers the Clapham Junction to Waterloo section of the journey.

I normally buy my tickets online and collect from a TVM and start short at Clapham after joining a train at Waterloo.

Yesterday, I did not have time to book online so thought I would buy one at Waterloo. Guy in the ticket office said it wasn't valid for that route he said I had to go from Brighton to Fareham to Woolston. I asked what the difference was between that fare and the fare via Barnham which was for the route he mentioned and he said it was the same.

After 45 minutes of him trying different combination stations he said it wasn't valid and I told him just to sell me the ticket that I asked for as it was approaching the time of departure for the next train with a reasonable connection at Southampton. He then said well if you get stopped it is your fault.

Guard checked the ticket on the train (which is unusual itself) and didn't query this.


Have their been any changes to the validity of this ticket/route recently as I don't want to be caught with the wrong ticket ? If it is a valid ticket/journey what do I have to say to ensure I have no problems buying it at Waterloo in the future ?

Thanks in advance for your input.

I use a similar ticket and have had no problems with using it. I tend to buy online and collect from the TVM (so I can also purchase a travelcard as well).

I've bought this ticket in the past from Southampton Central ticket office with no troubles.

lewisrday said:

I use a similar ticket and have had no problems with using it. I tend to buy online and collect from the TVM (so I can also purchase a travelcard as well).

I've bought this ticket in the past from Southampton Central ticket office with no troubles.

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I have never had any problems previously and I either buy online or from a station in advance. Just want to be certain that it is valid.

Buying this ticket (or a similar one) at Southampton is not going to cause suspicion, as the clerk is not going to know which train you intend to catch.

Buying it at Waterloo can cause problems, especially if the clerk thinks that it is a loophole, or that he/she is not aware that the ticket is valid at Clapham Junction. Yes, it should be sold if requested, but you cannot stop the clerk being awkward or make him sell you the ticket if he refuses.

If you have an internet-capable phone, you can buy from WebTIS-powered booking engines and the ticket will be available for collection instantly. This may be a preferred option in the future.

So could I use this ticket to travel from Winchester to Clapham Junction? Knocks a fiver off the normal price. Would I have to ensure a train out of Clapham Junction actually stopped at Woolston or could I claim to be intending to change at an intermediate station (or in fact just breaking my journey at Winchester)?

bb21 - are 'loopholes' something the TOCs look to close down or is there not much they can do about them? I use train quite a bit for different journeys and have always been a bit confused about "permitted routes".

You can take any train going on a permitted route, but you cannot deviate off-route or overshoot your destination, so you may have to change. You can change trains as many times as you like.

You can break your journey only if that specific ticket's T&Cs permit it. BR Fares is the easiest place to consult for this - your proposed ticket looks fine for Break of Journey.

Some loopholes can indeed be closed down. If a member of staff reports it to management, the Train Operating Company can consult with ATOC to have the loophole closed in the next edition of the National Routeing Guide
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I should add that the powers that be also read forums such as this, but I wouldn't worry too much in this case, as the NOT VIA LONDON tickets being used to start short at Clapham Junction is a long-standing 'loophole' that's been known for some time now, but hasn't been closed

These tickets fascinate me. Why would you make that journey via Clapham Junction anyway? I can't understand how going so far north to go west could ever be a valid route when there's a perfectly decent line along the south coast.

DeeGee said:

These tickets fascinate me. Why would you make that journey via Clapham Junction anyway? I can't understand how going so far north to go west could ever be a valid route when there's a perfectly decent line along the south coast.

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I am from Southampton but now live and work in London and have a season ticket travel card that I use for the Clapham-Waterloo section. I rarely start in Brighton, don't think I ever have but will often continue on to Gatwick Airport.

The ticket costs a fraction of what I would pay for a Waterloo-Woolston journey or Boundary Zone 3 just one of the anomolys of the fare rules in the UK.

afyutr said:

So could I use this ticket to travel from Winchester to Clapham Junction? Knocks a fiver off the normal price.

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Yes, but obviously when SWT read that people are going to be buying such tickets purely for the loophole factor, they're obviously going to investigate whether it's possible to close them.

DtT are toothless so won't reject, especially if SWT provide evidence that the tickets are being used in this way (and your post above is such evidence).

afyutr said:

Would I have to ensure a train out of Clapham Junction actually stopped at Woolston or could I claim to be intending to change at an intermediate station (or in fact just breaking my journey at Winchester)?

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A ticket from Brighton to Woolston is valid at any intermediate station (on any permitted route) as far as Woolston, but you'd need to get off a train that doesn't call there, while the ticket is still valid.

afyutr said:

bb21 - are 'loopholes' something the TOCs look to close down or is there not much they can do about them? I use train quite a bit for different journeys and have always been a bit confused about "permitted routes".

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Some TOCs are more keen than others, but absolutely TOCs want to close anomalies. Whether the DfT lets them or not is another matter, but you can be certain that the TOCs will want to. And you can be equally certain that the TOCs will do everything in their power to convince the DfT (e.g. "If you don't let us shut down anomalies, our income will reduce, therefore the franchise will be worth less..")
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DeeGee said:

These tickets fascinate me. Why would you make that journey via Clapham Junction anyway? I can't understand how going so far north to go west could ever be a valid route when there's a perfectly decent line along the south coast.

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Not everyone wants to go from A to B and not go anywhere else.

People who wish to visit more than one place in a day should be able to travel by train, and have an appropriately priced fare available, rather than forced to travel by car.

DeeGee said:

These tickets fascinate me. Why would you make that journey via Clapham Junction anyway? I can't understand how going so far north to go west could ever be a valid route when there's a perfectly decent line along the south coast.

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Basically because the London to Brighton line runs all night there are early morning/ late evening trains where via Clapham Junction is still the fastest route. Until relatively recently there were only 3 direct trains per day on Sundays (run by FGW) and otherwise a Brighton to Southampton journey via Barnham on a Sunday involved a change at Hove and Fratton on to the all stations service to Southampton. As a consequence the via Clapham Junction route was often quicker.




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yorkie said:

Yes, but obviously when SWT read that people are going to be buying such tickets purely for the loophole factor, they're obviously going to investigate whether it's possible to close them.

DtT are toothless so won't reject, especially if SWT provide evidence that the tickets are being used in this way (and your post above is such evidence).

A ticket from Brighton to Woolston is valid at any intermediate station (on any permitted route) as far as Woolston, but you'd need to get off a train that doesn't call there, while the ticket is still valid.

Some TOCs are more keen than others, but absolutely TOCs want to close anomalies. Whether the DfT lets them or not is another matter, but you can be certain that the TOCs will want to. And you can be equally certain that the TOCs will do everything in their power to convince the DfT (e.g. "If you don't let us shut down anomalies, our income will reduce, therefore the franchise will be worth less..")
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Not everyone wants to go from A to B and not go anywhere else.

People who wish to visit more than one place in a day should be able to travel by train, and have an appropriately priced fare available, rather than forced to travel by car.

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This particular loophole has been known by SWT for some years and they did attempt to take control of the fare from Southern. However it was tied up in the argument between the TOCs over whether "Southern" Tickets from London to Southampton should be "Southern Trains Only" or "Route barnham".
I think the outcome was that the "Not London" route is the protected fare along the Southcoast, the others being introduced by Connex post privatisation. TC probably has more detailed knowledge

The Not Via London fare between Brighton and Southampton has now been taken over by SWT from Southern AFAIK.

bb21 said:

The Not Via London fare between Brighton and Southampton has now been taken over by SWT from Southern AFAIK.

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Has been for aslong as I've been using it. Which is only a couple of years though.

Splitting at Clapham is cheaper than the London Terminals ticket, but it's much more restrictive; finding a train which stops in Clapham which isn't that easy in the peaks and often means changing at Basingstoke or Woking. It also isn't valid going via Reading into Paddington which some might find useful. And if you're going to use oyster then it involves a little dance round the barriers which takes a little more time.

I find every time I've used it to get to central London the hassle involved dealing with Clapham has delayed my overall journey by about 20-30 minutes each way and restricted me to 1tph instead of the usual 2. Worth it for the savings if I've the time to waste, but if I haven't then I don't and get the "normal" ticket.
I see it and treat is as the nearest equivalent here to the RE/IC differential pricing as in Germany. If you need to be somewhere quick, you pay extra. Shame there's no "official" way of doing that here but our timetables aren't made to support that sort of ticketing so I doubt we'd ever see that sort of thing.

It is much more useful if you have a season ticket of some sort.

The Southampton flow used to be owned by Southern, even when the Bournemouth flow was already in SWT's portfolio.

yorkie said:

Yes, but obviously when SWT read that people are going to be buying such tickets purely for the loophole factor, they're obviously going to investigate whether it's possible to close them.

DtT are toothless so won't reject, especially if SWT provide evidence that the tickets are being used in this way (and your post above is such evidence).

A ticket from Brighton to Woolston is valid at any intermediate station (on any permitted route) as far as Woolston, but you'd need to get off a train that doesn't call there, while the ticket is still valid. Yes Winchester is before Woolston so is fine. Yes you may break your journey.

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Makes sense. Fair point about the post being evidence of a loophole factor; it's a shame they don't see it as proof that rail travel is almost becoming unviable when compared to a car (at least on some routes). Especially when I travel with someone, diesel plus parking plus oyster (plus a guaranteed seat and no delays if travelling at the right time) works out much cheaper.

bb21 said:

The Not Via London fare between Brighton and Southampton has now been taken over by SWT from Southern AFAIK.

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Which explains why whilst the Off Peak Period Return via Barnham fare has gone up since NFM11 by only 30p but the now SWT set not London fare has gone up £2.30! As soon as SWT get hold of a fare they raise it and obviously this is one they;d want to raise as much as possible.