Is it possible to couple Desiro classes 450 & 444?

cmodyssey · 24 Dec 2013

Hi,

Would it be technically possible to couple a 5DES to a 4DES and for the controls from the front part of the train control the rear end of the train (albeit not operationally possible)?

It's just that I used to see a 2EPB and a 4CIG coupled in this way.

Thanks,

Richard.

RailUK Forums

Eagle · 24 Dec 2013

Yes, 444s and 450s can pair up and work in service (they're not timetabled to do so, but it often happens during disruption).

swt_passenger · 24 Dec 2013

This came up before, and it turned out that there was a planned ECS move of a mixed 444/450 pair - 5P71 00+05 from Portsmouth and Southsea to Fratton depot.

(At least it was up to the last timetable change, I haven't seen the current diagrams...)

Back when they were brand new, it was suggested here and there that they couldn't operate together, but I think it was just teething trouble with the software and whatever the issue was it quickly got fixed. Although not common, it isn't unusual to see them together during disruption as Eagle has already pointed out.

cmodyssey · 24 Dec 2013

Hi Eagle,

Thanks for replying so quickly, it's just something I've been curious with.

Have a great Christmas

Richard.

TEW · 24 Dec 2013

From time to time there are booked passenger workings too. Prior to the timetable change the 1605 Waterloo-Weymouth had been formed of a 444+450 for quite a while.

Y186520 · 24 Dec 2013

18TH December snapped picture at 0940. Heading London direction, don't know anymore about it. Could well be an empty working.

NSEFAN · 24 Dec 2013

I too have recently seen many workings with a 444 and 450 coupled together. I suppose it's not that different in principle from seeing a 4CIG and 4VEP working together, as was commonplace once upon a time!

antharro · 25 Dec 2013

444/450 sets make it down to Bournemouth from time to time. AFAIK, they're pretty much the same basic train, just different door configurations and interior layouts.

Eagle · 25 Dec 2013

And the carriage dimensions are different (444s' are three metres longer and slightly narrower than 450s').

AndyLandy · 25 Dec 2013

In a word: "yes"

I've even travelled on a '9DES' formation of a 444+450. Funnily enough, I sat in the 444 part. :lol:

I recall a train driver once telling me that they count as the same when you're signing the traction.

samuelmorris · 25 Dec 2013

I actually linked this before for something else I think, but here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeDqSRGVqkY

Monty · 25 Dec 2013

Eagle said:
And the carriage dimensions are different (444s' are three metres longer and slightly narrower than 450s').

To my knowledge the bodyshells on a 444 are the same width of a 450, I've certainly not notice from l being in the cab or in the saloons. The loading gauge on the old South Western Divison is quite generous as loading gauges go. Could be wrong though.

507 001 · 25 Dec 2013

AndyLandy said:
I recall a train driver once telling me that they count as the same when you're signing the traction.

Surely you would still have to do a conversion course as equipment is going to be in different places ec?

455driver · 25 Dec 2013

Monty said:
To my knowledge the bodyshells on a 444 are the same width of a 450, I've certainly not notice from l being in the cab or in the saloons. The loading gauge on the old South Western Divison is quite generous as loading gauges go. Could be wrong though.

444s are narrower (2.74m against a 450 at 2.80m), there are 2 easy ways to tell-
1/ sit in the drivers seat in a 444 and when you pull the PBC back you bang your elbow on the handrail! Well I do anyway.

2/ if you look at the front on a 450 there is much more yellow between the windscreen and the corner compared to a 444.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

507 001 said:
Surely you would still have to do a conversion course as equipment is going to be in different places ec?

They are taught as one traction type with the differences pointed out at the time.

Some depots will normally only work one of the types (Weymouth 444s and Staines/ Srawberry Hill 450s) but they will still sign them even though they wont work them regularly.

Matt Taylor · 25 Dec 2013

It happens more often than you might think, probably 2-3 times a week in addition to the booked ECS move to Fratton.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40172673@N03/10325471253/in/set-72157637056194494

It also happens from time to time on Sundays when engineering work affects the Portsmouth/Poole services that attach/split at Eastleigh.

swt_passenger · 25 Dec 2013

455driver said:
444s are narrower (2.74m against a 450 at 2.80m), there are 2 easy ways to tell-
1/ sit in the drivers seat in a 444 and when you pull the PBC back you bang your elbow on the handrail! Well I do anyway.

2/ if you look at the front on a 450 there is much more yellow between the windscreen and the corner compared to a 444.

The 444 width is even less according to the carriage data plates, they show it as only 2.688 m! I'd add that a third way the difference is noticeable is that the 444 step plate is significantly larger than the 450, as seen from the platform.

bigdelboy · 25 Dec 2013

I've been on a 444+450 on the odd occasion, if I recall correctly the Pompey-Waterloo 04:25/04:30 (or it may have been a later train) was booked 444+450 during the Olympics/Paraolympics/Wimbledon.

If the 450 leads and the 444 trails then only the first (4) 450 coaches open on a lot of short platforms .. Ie only 40% of the train doors.

I'd swear I'd feel the acceleration characteristics of the two types are slightly different ... and just might be more prone to slipping or jolting ... but I am most likely mistaken and talking trollop.

Monty · 25 Dec 2013

If anything the 444s should be slightly more sluggish than a 450 as the traction packages are identical and both units have the same hp.

455driver · 25 Dec 2013

Monty said:
If anything the 444s should be slightly more sluggish than a 450 as the traction packages are identical and both units have the same hp.

But the 444s are limited to 70% power and the 450s are limited to 55% so the actual performance is the same, pretty rubbish really.
From 0-40mph a 455 can keep pace with them and that has half the maximum power available, I have done it several times on the down leaving Clapham jn. :lol:

To see what a 450 is capable of you would need to catch a LM 350 which are all set at 100% power. the SWT desiros are strangled in the power department.

59CosG95 · 25 Dec 2013

455driver said:
But the 444s are limited to 70% power and the 450s are limited to 55% so the actual performance is the same, pretty rubbish really.
From 0-40mph a 455 can keep pace with them and that has half the maximum power available, I have done it several times on the down leaving Clapham jn.

To see what a 450 is capable of you would need to catch a LM 350 which are all set at 100% power. the SWT desiros are strangled in the power department.

Well, that's 3rd rail for you!

bigdelboy · 25 Dec 2013

Monty said:
If anything the 444s should be slightly more sluggish than a 450 as the traction packages are identical and both units have the same hp.

Looking at http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/desiro-uk39s-big-sister-emerges.html the implication is indeed the same traction package on the motor coaches of both the 450 and the 444.

So for the 450 we seem to have:
2700hp (#1) : 4 coach : 170T : Length circa 20.4*4 = 82m(#2). Starting? tractive effort: 200kN
And for the 444:
2700hp (#1) : 5 coach : 227T : Length circa 23*5 = 115m(#2). Starting? tractive effort: 200kN.

#1 : Taken from wikipedia, I assume max power output. The reference above says 2000hp is continuous. I assume 444 and 450 are the same.
#2 : The maths should be approximately right ... taken from wikipedia

- This would seem to confirm Monty's suggestion the 444 would be more sluggish.
- This might seem to endorse me feeling the two halves of a 444+450 might have different acceleration characteristics.

I am fully open to correction, don't take anything as gospel

... whoops ... see earlier explanations.

swt_passenger · 28 Dec 2013

Saw a couple of 444/450 combos up through Eastleigh today, both on Weymouth to Waterloo services. Interestingly the PIS reported them both as 9 car trains (as you'd expect), but then recommended that passengers for Clapham Junction should use the front 6 coaches due to short platforms at that station.

So does this mean that the PIS assumes (by default) that if it's a 9 car train it must normally be made up as 3 x 159s, and can open the doors on two whole units?

Eagle · 28 Dec 2013

swt_passenger said:
So does this mean that the PIS assumes (by default) that if it's a 9 car train it must normally be made up as 3 x 159s, and can open the doors on two whole units?

That seems as good an explanation as any.

Seems like shoddy coding, because presumably the system must be able to distinguish between different formations with the same number of coaches (for instance 8-car could be 2x450 or 2x159+158, which would require different announcements if they called at CLJ platform 7).

Matt Taylor · 29 Dec 2013

There's a greater chance of seeing 9 car sets at the moment while the Portsmouth direct line is blocked which has caused some short notice carriage working alterations.

1018509 · 29 Dec 2013

Seen 450/444 combo's several times here in New Milton (a few yesterday).

Makes it interesting waiting for a train which could be 4, 5, 8, 9 or 10 carriages. Although this would be irrelevant at New Milton with its short platforms.

paul1609 · 29 Dec 2013

450/444 combos on the Pompey Direct line should be banned imho. Ive seen disabled passengers in tears and distress when the auto announcers suddenly makes the announcement that only the 4 front coaches of a 9 coach train will open at Fratton despite 8 coaches being alongside the platform.
The combos also seem to have problems switching in the doors of the rear 444 after they have been switched out. Ive twice seen the coastway timetable in tatters after a train down has sat at Havant for 20 mins after panicking passengers have operated the emergency door releases.

455driver · 29 Dec 2013

News to me, I have never heard or seen that problem, when they are first coupled up it might need 2 pushes of the door release to operate the second unit but that is all.

Some more info would be nice when making a claim like that please!

Monty · 30 Dec 2013

Either way it shouldn't be a problem for too much longer, ASDO should remedy that assuming the bods at fleet have programmed units running in mixed formations to communicate correctly after passing over a SDO beacon!

The Ham · 31 Dec 2013

As 450's and 444's can work in partnership, does that mean (when the pantographes are fitted) that they could also be able to work in partnership with the 350's (assuming overhead cabled routes)?

AndyLandy · 31 Dec 2013

The Ham said:
As 450's and 444's can work in partnership, does that mean (when the pantographes are fitted) that they could also be able to work in partnership with the 350's (assuming overhead cabled routes)?

I should expect so, given the 350/1s are just converted 450s in the first place!

Is it possible to couple Desiro classes 450 & 444?

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