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FCC Pantograph strike at Blackfriars

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Moonshot

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If this had happened in a depot or siding etc, no one would be the slightest bit interested.
 
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Peter Mugridge

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I seem to recall a case almost 20 years ago where a technical failure with a Eurostar pant resulted in it rising to the fullest extent a few miles after leaving the tunnel - remember this was in the days when there was no high speed line in Kent - until after a few miles the inevitable happened...
 

Bedpan

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If (as has been suggested in some quarters) the driver had forgotten to lower the pantograph at Farringdon (as I understand is normal practice)

then

a) wouldn't the pantograph have hit the roof of the Snow Hill Tunnel before it hit the roof at Blackfriars?

b) is there some warning system if a train with pantograph raised tries to enter Snow Hill tunnel?

c) would it have continued to draw dc traction current? - are the "raise / lower pantograph" and "switch between ac / dc traction current" separate actions on the driver's part? (I'm assuming the train can't decide for itself whether to draw ac or dc power - surely the train would get confused at Farringdon if that was the case)

I can answer question (a) - and the answer is no, because the overhead line extends south as far as City Thameslink even though the usual practice is to lower the pantograph at Farringdon.

As far as (c) is concerned- it looks from earlier posts as though the trains can drow from both the obverhead line and the third rail where both exist, as in Farringdon to City Thameslink.

I hope I'm not being stupid in asking this, but could it be a possible scenario that the pantograph was lowered at Farringdon and then sprung back up ashort while later due to a malfunction in the securing mechanism?
 

Aictos

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Why would it be needed? At stations like farringdon and Drayton park you need to be able to draw from both shoes and pan to leave the station as when you put the pan up the shoes are still on the 3rd rail. An alarm goes off in the cab to warn you however.

Just wondering and excuse my lack of knowledge but can a changeover be done while mobile or not as the case might be?

I'm referring to all AC/DC trains where ever in use and not just in UK.
 

DJL

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It was recently mentioned that the new TL trains will be able to switch while moving.
I would imagine the actual current switch would take place while stationary but much of the associated activity (i.e. raising/lowering pantograph) can be done while underway.

Although if it is true that trains can draw current from both systems simultaneously then there is probably no reason why the entire thing can't be done on the move.

My brain says that drawing from both systems must cause all manner of problems. Like trying to connect audio equipment to 2 different phases - don't do it!
That's not to say that the engineers haven't somehow overcome these issues and that the trains can indeed draw current from both systems at once.
 
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Domh245

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Meanwhile London24 has gone with:

"The First Capital Connect service blocked the southbound lane after the driver raised the pantograph and hit the ceiling."

You can always trust a report when they mention lanes when talking about railways
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Just wondering and excuse my lack of knowledge but can a changeover be done while mobile or not as the case might be?
I'm referring to all AC/DC trains where ever in use and not just in UK.

It's a regular topic for comment on here, as plainly Eurostars used to be able to switch at speed (100mph) between AC/DC at the Channel Tunnel interface.
It seems it is down the to the power electronics on the train, and also to TOC driving rules for dual-voltage trains.
My understanding is that the older designs (313, 319) cannot switch on the move, but later designs (350, 377, 378, 395) can, if the TOC rules allow.
The usual test location is on the West London Line where the AC-DC change is between stations at North Pole.
I believe most train types still stop briefly here to effect the traction change.

It will become quite important to do it on the move if we get AC-DC changeover points with the replacement of DC routes with AC in the future (eg at Basingstoke and Southampton with electric spine).

Abroad, it happens at speed in many places.
Every TGV from Paris Lyon changes voltage twice, starting/ending at 1.5kV DC and switching to 25kV AC on the LGV sections.
It's the same in other DC countries such as Belgium, Italy, Spain etc.
 
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user15681

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Class 395s are the Javelins - right?
I didn't know these even had shoes - I thought HS1 is all OHLE?

The 395s are the Javelins. HS1 itself is all OHLE, but the trains leave HS1 at Ebbsfleet International and Ashford International and then go onto the classic third rail lines to Faversham and Ramsgate/Dover Priory respectively. As a result, they have shoes and pantographs. They can and do change over on the move, I believe one or two of the peak Maidstone West services that join HS1 at Ebbsfleet do not stop at the station, so the changeover does happen on the move.

EDIT: Having just checked, it seems all peak services now stop at Ebbsfleet, but I'm sure some didn't in the past. There are a few ECS though that aren't timetabled to stop, so they would changeover on the move.

Those journalists should get in contact with those investigating this incident, they seem to think they know more than anybody!
 
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NotATrainspott

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This kind of thing, for whatever cause, is going to happen eventually on this route and it's going to end up causing hours of disruption. Isn't there a way of detecting the pan is up and setting the signal to red? I seem to remember that the Underground has such things which prevent subsurface stock from being decapitated by going down the tube lines.

On another thought, if the pan is forced down by a ramp would this damage it? If not they could put little ramps on either side of this or any other particularly important obstructions so that it won't snap off.
 

Lrd

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I know the answer to this will make me look stupid, but where do 350s run on DC?
They don't as they have no shoes. They used to run on the WLL for Southern.
 

hwl

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I know the answer to this will make me look stupid, but where do 350s run on DC?

They did on the WLL when they were on loan to Southern (who had to loan dual voltage rolling stock to FCC for Thameslink for a short while.) P16/17 at Clapham Junction was as far south as they usually went.
 

CalderRail

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They don't as they have no shoes. They used to run on the WLL for Southern.

The 350/1s were (possibly still are) capable of it. Whether the current leaseholders bother to fit the contact parts of the equipment I don't know.
 

Peter Mugridge

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EDIT: Having just checked, it seems all peak services now stop at Ebbsfleet, but I'm sure some didn't in the past. There are a few ECS though that aren't timetabled to stop, so they would changeover on the move.

There were indeed some that did not stop at Ebbsfleet.

As for the fast ecs runs, don't most of those originate from Ashford anyway?
 

Manchester77

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If the pantograph can't be lowered, can trains use the recently installed crossover at City Thameslink to terminate as I seem to remember that was the purpose of the expensive dual voltage section?
 

GatwickDepress

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They did on the WLL when they were on loan to Southern (who had to loan dual voltage rolling stock to FCC for Thameslink for a short while.) P16/17 at Clapham Junction was as far south as they usually went.
Actually, they ran the full length of the East Croydon - Milton Keynes Central route with five units, (350112, 350113, 350114, 350117, 350118), temporarily based at Selhurst depot.
 

KA4C

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There isn't, no. See above post for explanation why not but when leaving Drayton park or farringdon having put the pan up you run with both shoes and pan in contact with the electrics.

There used to be an issue when the 319's were new. You'd be running on DC and need to reset an overload. The overload reset button being also the pan up button (pan up / reset). due to a technical problem when you pressed pan up / reset on DC conditions, the pan went up

Quite a few pans were knocked off of units at that time

Wondering if this is a similar technical problem with this unit?
 

hairyhandedfool

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My knowledge of 319s is now a little dated, I haven't signed them for the best part of a decade now, however, based on that knowledge.....

If (as has been suggested in some quarters) the driver had forgotten to lower the pantograph at Farringdon (as I understand is normal practice)

then

a) wouldn't the pantograph have hit the roof of the Snow Hill Tunnel before it hit the roof at Blackfriars?

No, the overhead wires now run into City Thameslink station. However, if it did not hit anything after leaving City Thameslink (Apothecary Junction) it should have lowered automatically by the time it reached Blackfriars (Automatic Dropping Device). If the pantograph only got damaged by Blackfriars roof then there had to be an ADD fault on the unit.

I'm not certain where the wires end at City but I imagine the pan was still up there and it hit the roof just outside City and bent backwards at that point. It may have been further damaged by the roof at Blackfriars.

b) is there some warning system if a train with pantograph raised tries to enter Snow Hill tunnel?

Yes and no. 319s have a buzzer that sounds in the cab when the pantograph is in contact with the overhead wire and, at the same time, at least one third rail shoe is in contact with a third rail.

c) would it have continued to draw dc traction current? - are the "raise / lower pantograph" and "switch between ac / dc traction current" separate actions on the driver's part? (I'm assuming the train can't decide for itself whether to draw ac or dc power - surely the train would get confused at Farringdon if that was the case)

I'm not exactly certain how the buzzer system works, but traction power can only be taken from one or the other, but not both simultaneously. In the cab there is "AC System Select", "Pan up/Reset" and "Pan Down/DC System Select" buttons for the driver to use depending on the particular changeover needed.
 

CalderRail

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There used to be an issue when the 319's were new. You'd be running on DC and need to reset an overload. The overload reset button being also the pan up button (pan up / reset). due to a technical problem when you pressed pan up / reset on DC conditions, the pan went up

Quite a few pans were knocked off of units at that time

Wondering if this is a similar technical problem with this unit?

I'm not exactly certain how the buzzer system works, but traction power can only be taken from one or the other, but not both simultaneously. In the cab there is "AC System Select", "Pan up/Reset" and "Pan Down/DC System Select" buttons for the driver to use depending on the particular changeover needed.

Enlightening... seems prone to suffering exactly this failure though!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I know the answer to this will make me look stupid, but where do 350s run on DC?

Nowhere today, but 350/1s have been used in the past for periods on the Southern service between Milton Keynes and East Croydon (ie via the West London Line).
Replaced by 377s now. 350/2, /3 and /4 are AC only.
 

PG

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This kind of thing, for whatever cause, is going to happen eventually on this route and it's going to end up causing hours of disruption. Isn't there a way of detecting the pan is up and setting the signal to red? I seem to remember that the Underground has such things which prevent subsurface stock from being decapitated by going down the tube lines.

That'd be the surface stock detector mentioned at the end of this page http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/piccadilly.html
Clive's UndergrounD Line Guides said:
Height detectors are mounted a short distance west of Barons Court on the eastbound track, and will prevent a subsurface stock train from being run into the Piccadilly platforms at the station or, more importantly, the tube section. These consist of U-shaped glass tubes silvered on the inside (previously they contained mercury) arranged so that an overheight train will smash them, breaking a circuit. Such tubes are also mounted between Hounslow Central and Hounslow West stations.

I'd imagine those more knowledgeable then me would have an explanation as to why this would be unsuitable for the pan-up situation that this thread refers to - for starters the pan isn't located at the front of the train but (depending on set formation) on the 2nd/3rd carriage.
 
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DJL

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That'd be the surface stock detector mentioned at the end of this page http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/piccadilly.html


I'd imagine those more knowledgeable then me would have an explanation as to why this would be unsuitable for the pan-up situation that this thread refers to - for starters the pan isn't located at the front of the train but (depending on set formation) on the 2nd/3rd carriage.

I'm guessing here but.
I'd say ripping the pantograph off is a relatively minor incident as compared to a full size train attempting to enter a small tube tunnel which will likely destroy the train and or tunnel portal, cause many injuries and possibly some deaths.
 

user15681

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There were indeed some that did not stop at Ebbsfleet.

As for the fast ecs runs, don't most of those originate from Ashford anyway?

Off topic from this thread, but no. The 3 Maidstone West peak Highspeed services come from St Pancras International via Ebbsfleet and Strood, 2 ECS and 1 in service.
 

Bald Rick

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Must be a slow news day, it's happened several times over the years in the core, including a couple of times since the wires have been extended through to City.

General consensus is a train fault, as the pan on the front unit was down.
 

A-driver

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To confirm, 313s can be lowered and raised on the move. The only unit I know of which can't is a 365 which can't be raised above 3mph.

Also, in response to who brought this up, some 313s have suffered the Reset button putting pans up on the NCL problem to.

Pans striking bridges etc is not at all uncommon, mitre bridge, the NCL, NLL and thameslink have had loads for various reasons.
 
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