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Class 377/7

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Manchester77

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Update off wnxx:
According to information from BT 377703 should be on test this week till 14th then 377704 will be on test.
The build is now working on 377705 which should be finished at the end of the week.

Good news hopefully the first will go down for testing with Southern
 

Class377/5

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First one isn't due down to next month for testing for Southern tho 701/702 are expected to do some testing elsewhere.

They should be fairly complete by the end of this month for the start of the 387 build.
 

southern442

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First one isn't due down to next month for testing for Southern tho 701/702 are expected to do some testing elsewhere.

They should be fairly complete by the end of this month for the start of the 387 build.

It seems that they've been built and finished quite quickly! Mind you, there are only 8 of them.

Does anyone know what the interiors will be like?
 

Class377/5

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It seems that they've been built and finished quite quickly! Mind you, there are only 8 of them.

Does anyone know what the interiors will be like?

They are actually the weeks behind at the moment due to delays during the 377/6 run. They are basically the /6 with a pan and transformer.

The fact they got ordered when they did meant the /6 run kept going at full steam rather than having to ramp up again. The 387 should be with us fairly quickly too.
 

Peter Sarf

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They are actually the weeks behind at the moment due to delays during the 377/6 run. They are basically the /6 with a pan and transformer.

The fact they got ordered when they did meant the /6 run kept going at full steam rather than having to ramp up again. The 387 should be with us fairly quickly too.

Any news on progress for the 377/7s ?. In another thread you said March for commissioning. I thought it better if I ask here.
 

Class377/5

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Any news on progress for the 377/7s ?. In another thread you said March for commissioning. I thought it better if I ask here.

The original plan was for the units to start arriving in Feb but work was stopped on the build to get the 377/6 built in time for Southern (they required mods). This restart has caused the 377/7 delivery schedule to silp a few weeks and now should be with us late Feb/early March. Same source that started this says the 387 build is now delayed too which isn't such good news.
 

Peter Sarf

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The original plan was for the units to start arriving in Feb but work was stopped on the build to get the 377/6 built in time for Southern (they required mods). This restart has caused the 377/7 delivery schedule to silp a few weeks and now should be with us late Feb/early March. Same source that started this says the 387 build is now delayed too which isn't such good news.

Thanks. Hopefully there wont be any surprises requiring mods for the 377/7s. Fingers crossed regarding the AC+Pantograph though. So they should come in smoother. The new 377/6s don't seem to throwing up problems in service.

Does that mean that there will be no surprises regarding the 387s ?. I cannot remember but are they similar enough to the 377/7s ?.

Anyway new designs always throw up surprises but in the end progress is worth the wait.

Are those 387s going to help with FCCs capacity (iirc) or do FCC lose 319s just as fast ?. Apologies if there is a better thread for this 387 question - just occured to me.
 
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Edvid

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The 387s will displace the 319s as soon as they are delivered. Like the 377/(6&7)s, they were ordered to meet the short-term capacity requirements that the 700s should have met [in]directly (being delayed by 3 years put paid to that).
 
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swt_passenger

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The key points about the 387s are in the TSGN franchise spec. Can't see where the idea above that they'll help with FCC's capacity comes from.

Will be used initially on Thameslink routes to enable cascade of other vehicles to other TOCs;
[and]
Bidders must provide for any vehicle due to be displaced by the introduction of class 387 or 700 vehicles to remain on hand for 4 weeks after the ‘replacement’ vehicle is due to become available to the Franchisee, as contingency cover.

That basically says to me that 4 weeks after any particular 387 arrives, something else (most likely a 319) will go...
 

Peter Sarf

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Oh bum so no capacity increase on FCC yet :(. Well the 319s are wanted elsewhere. Now you mention it that was the point of the 387s - to allow the 319s to cascade before the 700s finally materialise. Nothing like a nice cascade to keep the electrification going :) ;).

Afterthought. I might recall that the 377/5s might finally make it to Southern first or perhaps the loaned 377/2s before them.
 
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Class377/5

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The 387s will displace the 319s as soon as they are delivered. Like the 377/(6&7)s, they were ordered to meet the short-term capacity requirements that the 700s should have met [in]directly (being delayed by 3 years put paid to that).

The 377/6 were ordered for that cascade. The 377/7 are above that.

The key points about the 387s are in the TSGN franchise spec. Can't see where the idea above that they'll help with FCC's capacity comes from.

It seems some confusion in the early reporting of the units. One poster on a Yahoo group made the claim the 377s are leaving Southern for Southeastern this year.

That basically says to me that 4 weeks after any particular 387 arrives, something else (most likely a 319) will go...

On the currently acceptance dates that would mean around 8-9 387's in service a month before the Dec 2014 timetable change. Plus the 6 release by May and you get your units for phase 2, however not all will be refurbished.

Oh bum so no capacity increase on FCC yet :(. Well the 319s are wanted elsewhere. Now you mention it that was the point of the 387s - to allow the 319s to cascade before the 700s finally materialise. Nothing like a nice cascade to keep the electrification going :) ;).

Afterthought. I might recall that the 377/5s might finally make it to Southern first or perhaps the loaned 377/2s before them.

The 377/5 and loaned will never go back to Southern as that wont exist in 18 months. The 377s are to remain on Thameslink duties the last with 319s & 387s gone by end of 2016. The 700 fleet is expected to take over all operations in early 2018.

Note the first 700 will be running around alongside 319s. The original plan was all the 377s back with Southern by December 2013 but the 377/6 replaced that need.

Going off what I've seen, I'm guessing the 387 will take over the Bedford - Brighton services (especially as they are to be based at Lovers Walk) with the 377/5 on the Wimbledon Loops (they are cleared and software is loaded already) with the 319s left on the Sevenoaks services (they can couple to the 46x fleets). The above isn't confirmed but my view on what is likely to happen.
 

DJL

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Going off what I've seen, I'm guessing the 387 will take over the Bedford - Brighton services (especially as they are to be based at Lovers Walk) with the 377/5 on the Wimbledon Loops (they are cleared and software is loaded already) with the 319s left on the Sevenoaks services (they can couple to the 46x fleets). The above isn't confirmed but my view on what is likely to happen.

I didn't know 319 and 465/6 were compatible. (I assume 460 is not)

That quite a surprise to me given their vastly different characteristics.
Maybe that's why I've never seen them together - they'd probably only do it as a last resort.
 

Deepgreen

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What an absolute mess! All these different class variations which purport to serve specific market needs are a nonsense. Southern's first class policy was poor enough from the start, but is being worsened still more by the 377/6s and 377/7s. The average passenger travelling from anywhere within the London area can have no idea whether they can use first class or not, and many decide (wrongly in many instances) that they can. Enforcement is very rare and the incredibly badly-managed signing and ambience policy almost seems deliberately to invite error. Where else in the world would first and standard accommodation be identical, with first sometimes being available to all passengers and sometimes not, with later stock builds actually making things even worse by simply having stickers temporarily applied to windows to designate first!

On top of all this, even with so many different class types, we STILL have nowhere near enough stock delivered or planned to lengthen all trains to an acceptable formation - e.g. most Horsham to London Bridge (via Gatwick) trains are STILL only 4 cars in the morning peak, and show no sign of ever being improved! Can there be any other route where this ridiculous situation has been perpetuated?

Souhern and FCC may not be around for long now, but they have already done enough damage through poor management and stock design to last for a generation ahead.
 
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hwl

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The average passenger travelling from anywhere within the London area can have no idea whether they can use first class or not, and many decide (wrongly in many instances) that they can.

Isn't First Class declassified on Metro services so unless you get on a fast service at East Croydon or Clapham Jct. then using first is fine. The other give away being that they can't sell you a first class ticket for a particular journey!

Blame DfT rather than Southern or FCC as they pull the strings on stock procurement.
 

Fincra5

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Souhern and FCC may not be around for long now, but they have already done enough damage through poor management and stock design to last for a generation ahead.

Yes... Southern went to bombardier with a sketch of a train and said: "Build us this. NOW!" :roll:
 

Deepgreen

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hwl - yes, but passengers don't know the rules (as they are only obscurely available at best and certainly are not indicated on every train or station where they apply, despite what Southern claim) so anyone travelling from East Croydon, Norwood Junction, Clapham Junction, New Cross Gate, South Croydon, Purley, Purley Oaks, and any other stations at which 'main line' trains might call takes their chances. Also, anyone who normally travels in first in the 'Metro' area who then makes a different journey in the 'main line' area (or the same journey on a fast train), may well not recognise the difference. In other words, first class is OK for standard ticket holders on some trains between the same two stations, but not on others. A recipe for confusion and absolutely not passenger-friendly.

The TOCs have a significant input to stock specification and design, not just DafT, and Southern very publicly wanted to remove all first class at the start of their franchise, when specifying the 377s. The first class was only re-instated at the eleventh hour after huge protest from the Brighton line users and Southern have never accepted the principle properly since. Ten years later, they still haven't even provided a different/better appearance in first class, despite a major refurbishment programme. In fact, they actually removed the different seat covers (there used to be purple seats in some sections) and made every seat the same colour, worsening the situation even more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Damage to rolling stock quality, damage to passenger perceptions and expectations and damage to clarity of rules, among other things.
 

Fincra5

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The PIS show after the "Next station announcement" if STD passengers can travel in 1st Class or not!
Only Metro trains permit STD passengers in First. No train going to an 'out of london' destination usually permits travel in 1st for STD passengers. This includes travel within the London area. Metro services tend to be those on the map that are indicated as 'Metro' routes. Such as London Bridge to Tattenham Corner.

Theres not a lot that can be done to first class... if infact anything. Southern can't go adding bits and bobs as they don't own the trains! What more do you want on a commuter train's 1st Class section?

Southern did the seating spec for the newer 377s in line with Bombardier could actually do. Connex, lest we forget, ordered the original 377s.. Southern inherited them!
 

TEW

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Only Metro trains permit STD passengers in First. No train going to an 'out of london' destination usually permits travel in 1st for STD passengers.
Unless you were to get a 377 vice 313 on Coastway services in which case travel in First should be permitted with a Standard ticket.
 

Class377/5

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I didn't know 319 and 465/6 were compatible. (I assume 460 is not)

That quite a surprise to me given their vastly different characteristics.
Maybe that's why I've never seen them together - they'd probably only do it as a last resort.

Both the 319s and 465 are BR ordered units. They couple only in rescue so most people won't have seen them. I've seen one picture of it happening myself.
 

Goldfish62

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The TOCs have a significant input to stock specification and design, not just DafT, and Southern very publicly wanted to remove all first class at the start of their franchise, when specifying the 377s. The first class was only re-instated at the eleventh hour after huge protest from the Brighton line users and Southern have never accepted the principle properly since. Ten years later, they still haven't even provided a different/better appearance in first class, despite a major refurbishment programme. In fact, they actually removed the different seat covers (there used to be purple seats in some sections) and made every seat the same colour, worsening the situation even more..

Yes, you do have a valid point re 1st Class. Mind you, is Southern merely ahead of its time??
 

Bishopstone

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If you feel Southern are unsupportive of First Class, wait and see what happens if First Group get the franchise! The refreshment trolleys will be doomed too, I suspect.
 

RichardN

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The first class was only re-instated at the eleventh hour after huge protest from the Brighton line users and Southern have never accepted the principle properly since.

Surely only first class ticket holders kicked up a fuss? If you had a vote on it for all passengers, the majority of STD ticket holders would vote to do away with 1st as it would mean more seats for us.
 

Hophead

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The TOCs have a significant input to stock specification and design, not just DafT, and Southern very publicly wanted to remove all first class at the start of their franchise, when specifying the 377s. The first class was only re-instated at the eleventh hour after huge protest from the Brighton line users and Southern have never accepted the principle properly since.

Southern didn't "very publicly want to remove all first class at the start of their franchise" - the original units were ordered by Connex who certainly did hope to offer a single-class railway. Southern upgraded the 1st-class spec, so that the /4s got a proper compartment and a little more legroom (arising from the single, inward-facing, seat).
 

Minstral25

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On top of all this, even with so many different class types, we STILL have nowhere near enough stock delivered or planned to lengthen all trains to an acceptable formation - e.g. most Horsham to London Bridge (via Gatwick) trains are STILL only 4 cars in the morning peak, and show no sign of ever being improved! Can there be any other route where this ridiculous situation has been perpetuated?

Souhern and FCC may not be around for long now, but they have already done enough damage through poor management and stock design to last for a generation ahead.

I agree the Horsham services are too short but the trains you mention are all strengthened to 8 car at Redhill where large numbers of passengers get on. The fact they should be 12 car by then remains.

I think the 377's are great stock (ordered originally by Connex but delivered to Southern) that seem very efficient at what they do. The 377/6's seem ideal for their task. I've only managed one trip so far and that was very pleasant. Prefer them to SWT's variant of commuter stock.
 
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