I think the key consideration is, how much does Hull Trains actually make, and how much value do First place on the security of tenure they have on the HT paths. In some ways an OAO operation is a lot more secure in the long term than a franchised operator. Its also worth remembering that HT is 20% owned by Renaisance Trains.
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East Coast Franchise Short Listed Bidders
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I think the key consideration is, how much does Hull Trains actually make, and how much value do First place on the security of tenure they have on the HT paths. In some ways an OAO operation is a lot more secure in the long term than a franchised operator. Its also worth remembering that HT is 20% owned by Renaisance Trains.
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YorkshireBear
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Very good points. I think it would make operations easier merging them, ie get some IEPs on the job. I would hope they would consider it.
Not a benefit for them but a benefit to the passenger. Integrate it into a franchise and if it is successful (V.Likely as FHT is successful now) it should remain in franchises indefinitely.
But yes if they have long term ambitions it may be more difficult and maybe just marketed together rather than being an operation.
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Electrostar
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Hasn't Branson previously admitted he wished he'd waited until the West Cosst line was upgraded and the Pendolinos in service before launching the Virgin Trains brand, such was the negative perception before then with stock and speed restrictions? I can't imagine Virgin winning a franchise where they didn't slap their logo but I can imagine them waiting for the new high speed trains if they consider the HSTs and 91s to be ageing. Virgin's aeroplanes are mostly white so there's nothing saying new stock needs a full red livery - perhaps we'll end up with something resembling the original Pendolino artists impressions of all white with large red logo. That's if they win...
I can't see the Eurostar bid using the same name. It would dilute the main brand. I would expect lots of through-pricing promotions though.
The point about ownership of the East Coast brand: I thought all 1990s shadow privatisation names were owned by the government (formerly BRB). For example South West Trains (run by Stagecoach) kept the same brand but would have to allow it to be used if outbid. Thameslink could come back as could Great Eastern, Anglia, LTS etc.
I can't see the Eurostar bid using the same name. It would dilute the main brand. I would expect lots of through-pricing promotions though.
The point about ownership of the East Coast brand: I thought all 1990s shadow privatisation names were owned by the government (formerly BRB). For example South West Trains (run by Stagecoach) kept the same brand but would have to allow it to be used if outbid. Thameslink could come back as could Great Eastern, Anglia, LTS etc.
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sheff'd victoria
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Fully agree with this, First group are bad full stop when it comes to public transport.
The posts about extra train to/from Lincoln may include these services stopping at Gainsborough Lea Road/ Doncaster.
thenorthern
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If Virgin Trains does win will they operate the East Coast and West Coast services under a single brand like they did with CrossCountry and West Coast?
It'll be interesting to see. XC and WCML are a lot more integrated than WCML and ECML though, in that the former two both serve similar destinations, with use of one or the other being a choice for many journeys (South to North - via London or with CrossCountry?). ECML, on the other hand, is quite separate - they don't really serve any of the same places and you'd rarely be able to reasonably choose between one or the other, except perhaps for journeys to Scotland. So I can see a bigger case for them being branded separately.
route:oxford
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When you put it like that...
Splitting XC between WC (Manchester routes) and EC (Newcastle routes) would make sense.
Eagle
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Completely not allowed to merge OA and franchised operations. See what happened with W&S and Chiltern (not even much of a merger, just Chiltern were relying on W&S to fulfil their franchise requirement).
We only have one precedent for a franchise competition with a parallel OAO, and that was also East Coast with Hull Trains (in 2007).
Abellio actually were shortlisted for the Intercity West Coast franchise.
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/intercity-west-coast-franchise/franchisebidders.pdf
DfT announcement said:
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transmanche
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Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but I've just noticed that Richard Westcott (BBC Transport Correspondent) has pointed out the irony of the government wanting to privatise East Coast, but one of the bidders actually being part-owned by the government...
Richard Westcott said:
Eagle
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Except that London and Continental Railways will be in private hands by the time the franchise starts, because the Government is selling it off.
Remember that LCR has only actually been in public hands since 2009; it used to be owned by a consortium of which National Express was the largest stakeholder.
Remember that LCR has only actually been in public hands since 2009; it used to be owned by a consortium of which National Express was the largest stakeholder.
transmanche
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Brunel
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I would guess that is down to the shear expense of bidding. And also there are only so many people in the industry who have the knowledge to put these bids together. Working in the industry, I have seen first hand the colossal amount of work required. You need experts in railway finance, timetabling, safety, rostering, rolling stock and ensuring the bid is deliverable with Network Rail. And so it is no surprise the same old faces keep, and will keep, appearing when franchises come up. You can put that down to Government policy.
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What is the consensus on this? No to Keolis as that would mean the French Government effectively running a prestigious main line. Wouldn't sit well when our own DOR was banned. No the Stagecoach as Virgin (although correct) made the DfT look stupid last time round. No matter what the % holding Virgin have in the operation. Did read that if Stagecoach won they would run with Virgin branding? Then there would be problems, or looks like problems, with one company effectively running both West and East coast lines. Which leaves First Group. Rewarded for being let down on the West Coast? Hull Trains could be a sticking point. But only if their licence is renewed?
I am a semi regular user of First Great Western.
Very little to complain about I find, at least nothing thats within FGW's control.
YorkshireBear
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This is not true in anyway, there isn't any issue with the same company running the ECML and the WCML. BR did it!
Eagle
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How is this different to the French government running parts of London Midland, Southern, Southeastern and Transpennine Express; the German government running Chiltern, ATW, Crosscountry, Grand Central and part of London Overground; and the Dutch government running Greater Anglia, and parts of Northern and Merseyrail?
What makes the East Coast so special?
Totally false. I am astounded and irritated that there are people who still believe this despite being told many times that it is not and never has been a problem.
If it was a problem then obviously Virgin wouldn't even be on the shortlist.
transmanche
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See post #71. As the UK Government currently owns 40% of Eurostar, if the Keolis/Eurostar bid won, the UK Government would still be "effectively running" (partially at least) "a prestigious main line".
Eagle
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As would the Belgian government, too. It would mark NMBS-SNCB's first foray into the British domestic market.
Brunel
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What has BR got to do with it? They ran the whole network. And a lot cheaper as well!
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tbtc
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I do wonder, sometimes, it seems to be sacrilege for a "foreign Government" to have a stake in it, or for a "bus" company to operate it, unlike other TOCs.
Seems the ECML is "different", and has some amazing "flagship" status - really not convinced myself.
Then again, there are people who worry about one company having a monopoly on London - Scotland daytime services (but nobody worried about one company having a monopoly on London - Wales services when it looked like First had "won" the WCML franchise).
Brunel
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Very true
Eagle
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And yet a cargo and ferry company, whose only experience with the British transport industry was owning VSOE (at the time), was alright to run the ECML for eleven years
Brunel
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Who says it isn't a problem? The point is that the Rail Minister said on Friday that he wants “strong private sector partners who can invest and innovate in ways that deliver a world class service”. But is allowing a state run company to bid for the East Coast. Not interested in other franchises. East Coast is special because it is a high profile route.
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And yet a cargo and ferry company, whose only experience with the British transport industry was owning VSOE (at the time), was alright to run the ECML for eleven years
tbtc
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What makes it so high profile?
Its far from the biggest TOC, doesn't serve that many stations compared to others, the WCML serves much bigger places.
I presume that some of the fascination that enthusiasts have with the ECML franchise is nostalgia for Mallard/ Flying Scotsman, but thats a long way back in the history books.
transmanche
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I guess that (at least before the WCML upgrade) it was seen as the country's premier mainline route. ISTR that GNER used to advertise it as "Britain's Fastest Railway".
Also at the time, GNER were doing a pretty good job with modern stock; whereas on the WCML Virgin were struggling in the early days.
Maybe that's also stuck in the subconscious?
shinkansen1966
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Whoever takes over the East Coast franchise, can they keep the Rewards scheme please ?
route:oxford
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But probably not for long.
It's "sacrilege" for a foreign government to have a stake in any part of the network. All of our Governments bang on about how important it is for train companies to be privately owned, they should have the courage of their convictions and make sure that they are privately owned.
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