I recently read that in pre-grouping times, the locomotives of 7 different companies could be seen at York station. Since reading it, my mind keeps coming back to the question "which companies were they?", and it's mildly distracting that I can't complete the list (as if there are not far more important things in life to be pre-occupied with!!). I can think of 3 definite candidates - the North Eastern obviously, the Great Northern handed-over some trains there, and some Lancashire & Yorkshire trains terminated there. But who were the other 4 companies? Or is the overall count of 7 companies incorrect? Please someone help me out here. Thanks.
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7 Pre-Grouping Companies at York?
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Ploughman
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I can suggest 6
NER, GNR, L+Y, Midland, LNWR, Great Central (I think).
NER, GNR, L+Y, Midland, LNWR, Great Central (I think).
1910 Bradshaw also shows GER. 1922 also has GER but no longer has LYR (absorbed by LNWR). It has Derwent Valley Light - presumably only to Layerthorpe.
and Caledonian?
The first railway, instituted by George Hudson, was the York and North Midland. Following various developments, the following railways obtained running powers at various times:
The Great Northern from 1848
The Midland Railway from 1879
The L&Y from 1884
The Great Eastern from 1892
The LNWR from 1893
The Great Central from 1898
The Derwent Valley Light Railway ran trains from Layerthorpe Station but not from the main York station.
(A detailed description of the complexities of the development of York can be found in "Britain's Rail Super Centres - York" by Ken Appleby, published by Ian Allan in 1993, ISBN 0 07110 2072 8)
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The Great Northern from 1848
The Midland Railway from 1879
The L&Y from 1884
The Great Eastern from 1892
The LNWR from 1893
The Great Central from 1898
The Derwent Valley Light Railway ran trains from Layerthorpe Station but not from the main York station.
(A detailed description of the complexities of the development of York can be found in "Britain's Rail Super Centres - York" by Ken Appleby, published by Ian Allan in 1993, ISBN 0 07110 2072 8)
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No - the North British railway and the North Eastern railway kept the Caledonian out of SE Scotland, so it wasn't in a position to run to York. But it did run into Carlisle on the west side of the country, another station where a number of companies could be seen before the 1923 Grouping.
Eagle
Established Member
GER ran the daily Cathedrals Express service (London to York via Cambridge and Lincoln).
Some of those companies locos only turned up at York once or twice a day, so it would have been difficult to see them all together. I've never seen a photograph attempting to show even most of them together.
Carlisle, on the other hand, had trains of 7 companies in the station pretty much all the time. LNWR, Midland, North Eastern, Maryport & Carlisle, Caledonian, North British, G&SWR.
Carlisle, on the other hand, had trains of 7 companies in the station pretty much all the time. LNWR, Midland, North Eastern, Maryport & Carlisle, Caledonian, North British, G&SWR.
That sounds like a definitive list (with dates) and confirms what some others have suggested as well. So, many thanks John Webb.
An interesting point Taunton. I was aware that Carlisle was a colourful place pre-grouping! But I didn't know there were that many companies there.
It raises an interesting question, which station had the largest number of pre-grouping companies operating in to it on a scheduled basis (as opposed to occasional or special visits)?
Carlisle and York, with 7, have always been considered the key two.
For rolling stock there was also the East Coast Joint Stock and the West Coast Joint Stock, which added an 8th to each. There may have been others - did through Great Western carriages ever make it to either?
For rolling stock there was also the East Coast Joint Stock and the West Coast Joint Stock, which added an 8th to each. There may have been others - did through Great Western carriages ever make it to either?
I'm not sure about the stock but the Great Western certainly had services to York. I'm inclined to think Carlisle to the South West was more likely to be LNWR and later LMS territory than GWR.
Bevan Price
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I am not sure how many LNWR** locos would have made regular visits to York. LNWR trains from Lancashire probably changed locos at Leeds - that was certainly the case for Liverpool Lime St. - Newcastle services in BR days. (** - Except from 1922 when LNWR took over the L&YR.). The L&YR locos would reach York via Wakefield Kirkgate & Normanton.
Also, given the limited coal capacity at the time, I would be surprised if many GER locos reached York - a loco change at somewhere like Lincoln or Doncaster seems quite likely.
Passenger stock would include all the companies listed above, and possibly a few others - any train passing through York, and originating on (or conveying portions from) another railway might have stock from that railway.
Freight stock could also have come from almost any railway in the country, but trains would also contain a lot of "private owner" wagons, e.g. from some of the hundreds of coal mining companies, etc..
Also, given the limited coal capacity at the time, I would be surprised if many GER locos reached York - a loco change at somewhere like Lincoln or Doncaster seems quite likely.
Passenger stock would include all the companies listed above, and possibly a few others - any train passing through York, and originating on (or conveying portions from) another railway might have stock from that railway.
Freight stock could also have come from almost any railway in the country, but trains would also contain a lot of "private owner" wagons, e.g. from some of the hundreds of coal mining companies, etc..
What about the through Penzance coach (can't remember where from in Scotland), or was that a post-grouping innovation?
Possibly GWR is the other? Through services from Bristol ran via Cheltenham, Banbury, the Great Central and York to Newcastle. GWR coaching stock was used, but I'm not sure whether GWR locomotives were used throughout or whether they handed the train over to another company at some point.
Bevan Price
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Trains via the Great Central to/from York needed to reverse at Sheffield Victoria. In normal circumstances, I suspect that GWR locos probably ventured no further north than Banbury - many of them with outside cylinders were too wide to venture long distances on other railways.
Both LNWR and GER locos did reach York, and I think I've seen an allocation list for GER locos showing one or two actually outstationed there, at the NER depot. Remember that GER tracks actually extended to Doncaster, up the GN/GE Joint line through Lincoln. The through trains from East Anglia may have changed GER locos at Lincoln.
The Newcastle-Banbury-Swindon etc through train generally changed locos at Banbury, although in more recent times of the 1950s Western Halls sometimes got up the old GCR as far as Leicester.
The Newcastle-Banbury-Swindon etc through train generally changed locos at Banbury, although in more recent times of the 1950s Western Halls sometimes got up the old GCR as far as Leicester.
flymo
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Pre grouping. Some info from a post a while ago. 33 stops in 21h 55m.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=672511&postcount=119
DaveNewcastle
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There is an accurate replica of the 'zero milepost' on York station, which lists the ten lines which radiated from there. I recall that it's near the buffer stop of platform 6 at the foot of the stairs down to plats 5, 6, 7, 8 & 9. There is a picture of it, and 10 the Companies' initial letters for each line's designation, on this page from the North Eastern Railway Association website.
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Bevan Price
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And although not bound for York, a GWR Grange did once get beyond Sheffield Victoria, but was removed from its train (at Huddersfield, I think) after its cylinders scraped the edges of at least one platform.
Saltleyman
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Ex GW locomotives used to work as far as Nottingham Victoria with through trains from the SR to the NE.
Here is a picture of one such working with a train approaching Nottingham.
Here is a picture of one such working with a train approaching Nottingham.
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