Quicker to Yeovil by FGW

tsr · 19 Jan 2014

Lyme Regis would indeed probably only do well from a station if it could be brought further down the steep slopes, and I too have looked at the OS maps and puzzled over this. At the moment, I should imagine most people wouldn't want to walk further than one of the upper car parks, which in themselves might not be within walking distance for some. It's not as if it doesn't need a station, though - the number of cars & the popularity even on a more dreary summer's day can overwhelm the area a little, and the park-and-ride scheme seems to have fairly limited hours (and is subject to the little road down to the bus stops opposite the hardware store on the seafront, which can get congested and even gridlocked).

On a personal note, I'm not a big fan of negotiating Axminster and what can be some fairly solid traffic jams at times, just to reach a railway station, but, TBH, I don't see my fantasy plans for a fast ferry shuttle from the Cobb harbour to a suitable location for a parkway station (if there could be one) coming into existence, so I guess we'll just have to make do until something innovative happens - if ever...!

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Eagle · 20 Jan 2014

I think what could be done fairly simply is an improved bus service between Axminster station and Lyme. Currently the 31 runs between them, and you can buy through rail tickets for it, but it's only hourly and doesn't connect well with the train.

455driver · 20 Jan 2014

Muzer said:
The current line looks something like this (sorry for the terrible ASCII drawing):

Code:

^ to Castle Cary | PM /| / | to Exeter <---JN---|----------------> to Salisbury | | v to Dorchester West

There was once a curve between Junction and the line towards Dorchester as well as the existing Jn-Pen Mill curve (used only during diversions).

Plus there was a curve from PM towards Salisbury, you can still see the cutting on the right as the train approaches JN from the Salisbury direction.

Eagle · 20 Jan 2014

And then to top it all off there was a line to Yeovil Town station (actually in the town centre, unlike the other two) on the line to Taunton.

HowardGWR · 20 Jan 2014

Muzer said:
The current line looks something like this (sorry for the terrible ASCII drawing):

Code:

^ to Castle Cary | PM /| / | to Exeter <---JN---|----------------> to Salisbury | | v to Dorchester West

There was once a curve between Junction and the line towards Dorchester as well as the existing Jn-Pen Mill curve (used only during diversions).

Yes, the layout at present is very similar to that which applied at Templecombe in S and D days. Mentioning that exposes the fact that the S and D closing, plus that of the M and SWJ, plus the DN and S, was, now in hindsight, way over the top when considering north to south traffic. One should have been retained. My vote would have gone to the M and SWJ probably -it's a big subject though.

The good news is that the Yeovil route has not been built over so that re-connections are possible at the Junction in all directions. It needs the chord though, to prevent the ludicrous manoeuvres that used to take place at Templecombe.

On Lyme Regis, the bus meets the trains, as do other local services from Seaton and the Honiton road villages - and are being used, a great improvement.

PHILIPE · 20 Jan 2014

Parallel said:
I'm not sure about competing FGW services, however it could be good if some SWT trains called at both Yeovil Pen Mill and Yeovil Junction, Yeovil Pen Mill is a lovely station that is definitely underused in my opinion and doesn't see enough services.

I'd potentially look at putting a two hourly service from Weymouth to Westbury on to run alternatively to the two hourly service that already exists from Weymouth to Bristol/Gloucester, and with some SWT services calling there too it could attract passengers as it would have far better connections. Perhaps Sprinters could run Westbury-Weymouth and when it becomes available, different stock could run Gloucester-Weymouth. I'm not sure if it would actually work but it also strengthens Heart of Wessex connections at Westbury and Castle Cary, and would give Frome more services too.

There are already plans to increase the service to Weymouth in the future. Got to hope they come to fruition.

TheWalrus · 20 Jan 2014

Going back to the OP is there something that says FGW aren't allowed to operate Paddington-Weymouth or is it a case of they just don't?

An option would be if the London-Bedwyn services were extended to at least Westbury maybe the Weymouths could be altered to provide a good connection?

LateThanNever · 20 Jan 2014

TheWalrus said:
Going back to the OP is there something that says FGW aren't allowed to operate Paddington-Weymouth or is it a case of they just don't?

An option would be if the London-Bedwyn services were extended to at least Westbury maybe the Weymouths could be altered to provide a good connection?

Good idea. Then all we need is better connections at Yeovil so that the reccomended route to Bournemouth from the South West is not only via Basingstoke!

455driver · 20 Jan 2014

Would Paddington to Weymouth be quicker than Waterloo to Weymouth?

Is there a decent sized passenger base from the intermediate stations to make it viable?

Eagle · 20 Jan 2014

455driver said:
Would Paddington to Weymouth be quicker than Waterloo to Weymouth?

Probably not. Linespeeds between Cary and Dorchester are pretty terrible (75 max, average is about 60), which might negate the 125 running you'd get on the way out of London.

Additionally there's not much of an intermediate market; on the SWT route you have Southampton, Bournemouth and Poole, whereas on the FGW route you'd only really have Yeovil.

HowardGWR · 20 Jan 2014

LateThanNever said:
Good idea. Then all we need is better connections at Yeovil so that the reccomended route to Bournemouth from the South West is not only via Basingstoke!

Is that where they send you now? A few years ago my colleagues found pax from Bournemouth being routed to Plymouth via Upwey (!!!

) and Castle Cary. One woman was wandering around the down platform at Upwey not realising she had to cross the footbridge to go get a train going back the other way.

This is a perfect example of what closing the S and D meant to the large conurbation of Poole, Bournemouth and Christchurch, the second largest conurbation in the SW.

TheWalrus · 20 Jan 2014

Eagle said:
455driver said:

Would Paddington to Weymouth be quicker than Waterloo to Weymouth?

Click to expand...

Probably not. Linespeeds between Cary and Dorchester are pretty terrible (75 max, average is about 60), which might negate the 125 running you'd get on the way out of London.

Additionally there's not much of an intermediate market; on the SWT route you have Southampton, Bournemouth and Poole, whereas on the FGW route you'd only really have Yeovil.

Waterloo-Weymouth is about 3 hours which is quite lengthy considering Paddington-Exeter can be done in 2. Maybe with IEP and infrastructure improvements Paddington-Weymouth could be quicker than from Waterloo?

455driver · 20 Jan 2014

TheWalrus said:
Waterloo-Weymouth is about 3 hours which is quite lengthy considering Paddington-Exeter can be done in 2. Maybe with IEP and infrastructure improvements Paddington-Weymouth could be quicker than from Waterloo?

Well if you are improving the infrastructure why not do that to the priority route!

TEW · 20 Jan 2014

Eagle said:
Probably not. Linespeeds between Cary and Dorchester are pretty terrible (75 max, average is about 60), which might negate the 125 running you'd get on the way out of London.

Additionally there's not much of an intermediate market; on the SWT route you have Southampton, Bournemouth and Poole, whereas on the FGW route you'd only really have Yeovil.

I think you'd probably manage about the same journey times Paddington-Weymouth as you do Waterloo-Weymouth, perhaps slightly quicker if the trains were quick. It wouldn't be a particularly good use of limited capacity at the London end of the route in my opinion though.

bb21 · 20 Jan 2014

HowardGWR said:
Mentioning that exposes the fact that the S and D closing, plus that of the M and SWJ, plus the DN and S, was, now in hindsight, way over the top when considering north to south traffic.

Somerset & Dorset, ??, ??

D1009 · 20 Jan 2014

Eagle said:
Probably not. Linespeeds between Cary and Dorchester are pretty terrible (75 max, average is about 60), which might negate the 125 running you'd get on the way out of London.

Actually currently it's only 40 between Castle Cary and Pen Mill, as you will find if you sample one of the diversions.

Eagle · 20 Jan 2014

bb21 said:
Somerset & Dorset, ??, ??

Midland and South Western Junction Railway (running Andover to Swindon and Cheltenham) and Didcot, Newbury and Southampton Railway.

Also S&D is ambiguous in Dorset as it could also refer to the Southampton and Dorchester Railway (the LSWR old mainline via Ringwood and Wimborne) or the Salisbury and Dorset Junction Railway (Salisbury to Wimborne via Verwood).

starrymarkb · 21 Jan 2014

D1009 said:
Actually currently it's only 40 between Castle Cary and Pen Mill, as you will find if you sample one of the diversions.

I thought it was 30/MU60 - certainly the HSTs crawl along there compared with Sprinters
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

tsr said:
Lyme Regis would indeed probably only do well from a station if it could be brought further down the steep slopes, and I too have looked at the OS maps and puzzled over this. At the moment, I should imagine most people wouldn't want to walk further than one of the upper car parks, which in themselves might not be within walking distance for some. It's not as if it doesn't need a station, though - the number of cars & the popularity even on a more dreary summer's day can overwhelm the area a little, and the park-and-ride scheme seems to have fairly limited hours (and is subject to the little road down to the bus stops opposite the hardware store on the seafront, which can get congested and even gridlocked).

On a personal note, I'm not a big fan of negotiating Axminster and what can be some fairly solid traffic jams at times, just to reach a railway station, but, TBH, I don't see my fantasy plans for a fast ferry shuttle from the Cobb harbour to a suitable location for a parkway station (if there could be one) coming into existence, so I guess we'll just have to make do until something innovative happens - if ever...!

If it were Switzerland I'd expect a tunnel would have been built to bring the line into the centre. (it does amaze me at what upgrades the Swiss do, they've recently built a substantial tunnel to reduce the gradient into Engelberg (pop similar to Lyme Regis) to remove the train length/formation restraints imposed by the former very steep rack section (The tunnel is rack equipped as well, the gradient was reduced to 1:8)

HowardGWR · 21 Jan 2014

bb21 said:
Somerset & Dorset, ??, ??

My apologies. I thought everyone on here would know that stuff, but I will spell it out in future. Thanks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

starrymarkb said:
I thought it was 30/MU60 - certainly the HSTs crawl along there compared with Sprinters
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If it were Switzerland I'd expect a tunnel would have been built to bring the line into the centre. (it does amaze me at what upgrades the Swiss do, they've recently built a substantial tunnel to reduce the gradient into Engelberg (pop similar to Lyme Regis) to remove the train length/formation restraints imposed by the former very steep rack section (The tunnel is rack equipped as well, the gradient was reduced to 1:8)

It's the same issue at Sidmouth of course but with Lyme, we have the not insignificant matter of the ground, which is going to mean that Lyme may disappear eventually! If the buses to Lyme were of better quality, that would help immensely of course. I actually think a frequent shuttle would be more effective to Axminster, as nearly all the pax start there.

gwr4090 · 21 Jan 2014

455driver said:
Would Paddington to Weymouth be quicker than Waterloo to Weymouth?

Is there a decent sized passenger base from the intermediate stations to make it viable?

Some years ago, the fastest journey of the day from Weymouth to London was via Castle Cary on the early morning Bristol dmu then changing to an HST. But there was no good connection in the opposite direction.`

I remember in the late 1960s/early 1970s there was an evening rush-hour service from Paddington to Weymouth in a Class 117 dmu all the way with many stops !

Oliver · 21 Jan 2014

starrymarkb said:
I thought it was 30/MU60 - certainly the HSTs crawl along there compared with Sprinters
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If it were Switzerland I'd expect a tunnel would have been built to bring the line into the centre. (it does amaze me at what upgrades the Swiss do, they've recently built a substantial tunnel to reduce the gradient into Engelberg (pop similar to Lyme Regis) to remove the train length/formation restraints imposed by the former very steep rack section (The tunnel is rack equipped as well, the gradient was reduced to 1:8)

Lyme Regis is plagued with subsidence. Great if you're hunting fossils, but not great for tunnelling.

D6975 · 22 Jan 2014

As has been pointed out by several people on here before:

S&D = Stockton and Darlington.

S&DJR is the one that used to run down to Bournemouth etc.

Muzer · 22 Jan 2014

That, and the Salisbury & Dorset Junction Railway

TheWalrus · 22 Jan 2014

Going back to the Weymouth line, the best thing would be to have an hourly service calling at Frome, Castle Cary, Yeovil and Dorchester, with at least two-hourly calls at Bruton, Maiden Newton and Upwey and limited calls at Thornford, Yetminster and Chetnole. Then increase the line speeds up to 90 if possible between Castle Cary and Dorchester using 158s or 165s if they are released. I know infrastructure work is expensive but if we are going to pump money into additional services on this route we may as well make it a decent cross-country service improving it for people to use.

Derbyshire Gra · 22 Jan 2014

D1009 said:
Actually currently it's only 40 between Castle Cary and Pen Mill, as you will find if you sample one of the diversions.

Have sampled two of the diversions - HST speed between Castle Cary and Yeovil Pen Mill was 75mph, and 40mph between Pen Mill and Junction in both directions

DDB · 22 Jan 2014

TheWalrus said:
Going back to the Weymouth line, the best thing would be to have an hourly service calling at Frome, Castle Cary, Yeovil and Dorchester, with at least two-hourly calls at Bruton, Maiden Newton and Upwey and limited calls at Thornford, Yetminster and Chetnole. Then increase the line speeds up to 90 if possible between Castle Cary and Dorchester using 158s or 165s if they are released. I know infrastructure work is expensive but if we are going to pump money into additional services on this route we may as well make it a decent cross-country service improving it for people to use.

I don't believe any infrastructure work is required for an hourly service (although it might be desirable). The lack of DMUs is the hold up. The local rail partnership commissioned a study available on their website http://www.heartofwessex.org.uk/partnership.html and one of the options was included as priced option from the 2012 ITT http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/rail-passenger-franchise-great-western/invitation-to-tender.pdf#page=121

DDB

Hartington · 22 Jan 2014

Living near Castle Cary I have to say that one of the attractions (for me) of this area is that there aren't very many people here. Therefore, I really question if there is any kind of business case for any of the ideas being suggested. I'd like a more regular service on both routes through Castle Cary, at the moment the frequency is all over the place. It might be possible to do something on the "main" line but, as I understand it, the Weymouth passing place spacing precludes an hourly service. Conversly the loadings on the Weymouths might need hourly at a few times of the day but not all day. As for the main the stops are all inserted in longer distance trains (with the exception of the Taunton stopper) and it's a balance between the longer distance journey times and providing a service.

It amazes me sometimes how much traffic there is. The Castle Cary car park is always full (as are Templecombe and Gillingham) and train time is always chaos in the kiss and ride space at Castle Cary. However, I'm not convinced a better service would generate more traffic - there aren't enough of us around here!

Actually we do rather well. With the 2 routes I've got a choice; I'm off to Greenwich soon and I reckon that even with needing to get to an LSWR station relatively simple changes at Waterloo East and London Bridge are better than trying to drag around the Underground and DLR or Underground and SE from Paddington.

IF (and that's a big IF) we're going to spend money on routes in this part of the world let's find an alternative to the sea wall at Dawlish.

TheWalrus · 22 Jan 2014

You are correct, you do not need infrastructure improvements to facilitate an hourly service. However the improvements I propose are to improve journey times turning a local branch line into more of a cross-country route giving good links between key locations between Bristol and Weymouth, making it more like the Cardiff-Portsmouths. Also using 90mph stock (ie turbos) should reduce dwell times and time between stations combined with higher running speeds should contribute to a faster and better service, reducing costs and increasing attractiveness to potential customers.

Parallel · 22 Jan 2014

I think it'd be ideal to potentially have these services on the Heart of Wessex Line

2 hourly service from Gloucester/Great Malvern/Bristol TM - Weymouth (as it currently is)

then either

2 hourly service FROM Swindon via Melksham to Exeter St. Davids via. Yeovil Pen Mill & Yeovil Junction (using current diversion) - Basically, just extending the current Westbury terminus - except at peak times when they could run to Salisbury/Southampton Ctl instead?

OR

2 hourly service Bristol/Westbury to Weymouth express service (meaning Bath, Trowbridge, Westbury, Frome, Bruton, Castle Cary, Yeovil, Dorchester and Weymouth get an hourly service)

In an ideal world, it would be good to run both, but, I'm not sure there would be enough traffic to run all these services at the start. It's tricky as it would be good for more stations to get a direct link to Axminster and the Exeters etc, but an hourly service would also help Weymouth quite a bit (the 2 carriage trains are quite loaded at times)!

TheWalrus · 22 Jan 2014

Out of interest what are the linespeeds on each section of Westbury-Weymouth?

Quicker to Yeovil by FGW

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