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Inter-city Rail debate 09/01/14

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ainsworth74

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Interesting debate took place yesterday in the House of Commons lead by Ian Swales:

Ian Swales said:
I beg to move,

That this House
has considered inter-city rail investment.

As well as London, the eight largest English cities have city deal status and another 20 are being agreed at present. I want to talk about rail travel between these city regions, especially those journeys that do not involve London. My speech will not be about HS2, except in passing, partly because that subject has already been aired at length, but also because journeys between the 29 city regions involve 465 possible trips, only 13 of which are directly covered by HS2. Those figures do not include Welsh or Scottish cities, but I am sure other Members may wish to comment on them.

If we look at past priorities for inter-city rail investment, we see that there has often seemed to be an assumption that the only thing people want to do when they get on a train is travel to or from London. Research shows that prioritising transport heavily on connections to a capital tends to suck economic activity into that capital. As Chris Murray, director of Core Cities, observed recently, this over-concentration is bad for the national economy in the long term. In contrast with other developed countries, such as France and Germany, the UK remains one of the most economically centralised countries in the world. The vast majority of significant companies and other institutions are headquartered in and around London.

London itself has major capacity issues, whether they be housing, schools, airports, local transport, water, sewage treatment or even land and labour. Immigration pressures from abroad or from elsewhere in the UK are felt heavily in London as it deals with its overheated economy. A London MP recently exemplified affordable housing in her constituency, it being defined as a two-bedroom flat costing £750,000. There is constant pressure for billions of pounds of taxpayers’ money to be spent addressing those capacity problems in the capital. Meanwhile, other areas, such as the one I represent, have all those assets freely available, including houses, none of which cost £750,000, surplus school places and capable people ready to take jobs.

The Government have a stated aim to rebalance the economy and I believe that inter-city rail investment can play a pivotal role in that endeavour. Others share my concerns. The former Business Secretary, Lord Mandelson, said recently:

“There are literally dozens of rail and public transport projects urgently needed across the country that would make a significant economic and social impact.”—[Hansard, House of Lords, 24 October 2013; Vol. 748, c. 1228.]

He also commented on the cuts to other inter-city services that accompany the HS2 proposals, including loss of service from Stoke, Stockport, Coventry and Wilmslow, and long journey times to Carlisle. The Institute of Directors reports that 80% of its members support increased investment in the existing inter-city network.

The Shadow Transport Minister and the Under-Secretary of State for Transport also made statements:

Lilian Greenwood said:
I congratulate Ian Swales on securing this debate, which has addressed some national issues. Important constituency concerns have been raised by hon. Members, including those who represent Plymouth, Brighton, Cleethorpes, Luton, Edinburgh, and St Austell and Newquay.

There has been shared agreement across the House that strengthening rail links between our cities is an important step to achieving balanced economic growth for individual cities, city regions, and the nation as a whole. I am sure that all Members who have spoken today will work to ensure that although individual disagreements may arise, the commitment to an ongoing programme of investment endures.

There has been much positive talk today about future developments, and I know that for many hon. Members, those projects cannot be delivered fast enough. I entered Parliament with a pledge to campaign for the electrification of the midland main line, and although some issues still need to be addressed, the improvements look on course to reach the east midlands by 2019, and Sheffield by 2020.

Electrification will ensure faster, more reliable services, as well as delivering environmental and efficiency gains. We have heard other examples of how planned projects will benefit communities, including from my hon. Friend Alison Seabeck, and other south-west MPs who are very much looking forward not only to electrification, but to modern Intercity Express Programme trains, investment in improved resilience, and even wi-fi and power sockets.

As we begin to plan for control period six spending in the next Parliament, we must consider how other links can be strengthened, new links made, and Beeching-era lines reopened where there is a clear business case to do so.

It is worth remembering just how far the rail industry has developed in the past 15 years. The 1997 Labour Government inherited a fragmented rail network. Years of underinvestment had left a dated fleet, much of it still using slam-door carriages, which was to prove inadequate against a backdrop of rising passenger numbers. The popular and successful inter-city brand had been broken up. There had been 1,000 days without orders, which had caused permanent damage to the supply chain. Disastrously, the recently privatised infrastructure body had little understanding of its assets, and Railtrack’s over-reliance on subcontractors put passengers’ safety in danger.

Stephen Hammond said:
It is an honour to address the debate this afternoon. I congratulate Ian Swales on securing the debate and on the way he conducted it. His speech was interesting and thoughtful, and he proved by his journey time calculations and recalculations that he can do mathematics.

We heard some fascinating contributions from a number of other Members. The three Members from the south-west were united across the political divide in wanting to see improvements to train services in the south-west, particularly the three-hour train to Plymouth. I remember campaigning in the city, along with Alison Seabeck, back in 2007. The failure of investment about which she complained has not happened only under this Government. I can, of course, bring her good news. She quoted a fare of £271. Should she choose to travel tomorrow morning, there is a return fare of £92, so one needs to be careful about saying that only one fare is available.

I heard the pleas of my hon. Friend Oliver Colvile about Mayflower 2020 in Plymouth. I do not know whether he will see President Christie turning up there. He invited me to come to a meeting, and I would be delighted to do so. I follow his lark in saying that I hope he is here for rather longer than just for 2015, and I am sure he will be.

I say to Stephen Gilbert that I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to go back to the constituency in the middle of the night to find that the film has been lost. The prospect of corresponding with him fills me with unbounded joy. I look forward to receiving and acting on his suggestions none the less.

The two Members representing Brighton shared a moment of political unity. I certainly hear their pleas. I can confirm that the Department received a draft in

December of the report to which Baroness Kramer referred—the London to south coast rail study, which was carried out by Network Rail—and I expect to see a final version within the next couple of months.

I can bring some good news to my hon. Friend Simon Kirby on the basis that Thameslink will see 116 new trains of eight and 12 cars coming into operation, which will directly benefit his constituents. I am delighted to tell him that when he opens his post tomorrow morning, he will find a letter from me accepting his challenge to come and travel on the early morning train. I very much look forward to doing that.

I was not entirely surprised to hear the contribution of Kelvin Hopkins. He and I have enjoyed sparring over issues for the last few years. I listened with interest to his comments about the Birmingham Snow Hill line, and I am sure that he will want to raise his point about it with us again.

I understand the call of my hon. Friend Martin Vickers for more initiative and private sector innovation in franchising. I hope that, through the direct award and the new refranchising process, we will be able to deliver that for him.

I enjoyed the contribution from Sheila Gilmore, although I had obviously heard it before in previous debates of this nature. The simple fact is that the east coast main line is the worst-performing of the long-distance franchises. Its passenger satisfaction figure may be up, but it is still six points behind the figure for the west coast main line.

We heard a wide range of contributions today, and I am grateful to Members for taking the time to be here. The debate has shown how valuable the railways are to our country, and to communities throughout it.

The whole debate can be found here and whilst there's nothing earth shattering I thought it would be of interest to some people around here.
 
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GRALISTAIR

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If we get all parties agreeing in principle (which seems to be the case) it looks like at long last we can look forward to the railways no longer being the cinderella of industries.
 

6Gman

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If we get all parties agreeing in principle (which seems to be the case) it looks like at long last we can look forward to the railways no longer being the cinderella of industries.

But sadly I suspect that all they agree on is that their particular hobbyhorse is the No.1 priority for investment!
 

tbtc

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It is worth remembering just how far the rail industry has developed in the past 15 years

I'd agree - even just in the last five years there's been a Great Leap Forward - not just in terms of what we've built/ committed to build but also (and more importantly?) the fact that for the first time I remember investment in rail seems to have all-party support. Whilst politicians argue about virtually everything else, nobody seems against electrification/ investment in conventional rail (ignoring HS2 for a moment). Which is why its frustrating to see a quote like this:

journeys between the 29 city regions involve 465 possible trips, only 13 of which are directly covered by HS2

HS2 is expensive enough as it is without trying to provide 465 journey possibilities. Its not the answer to everything, I wish people would stop criticising it for not being something that its never pretended to be. I'm all for High Speed rail to other places too, but one step at a time, eh?
 

Kettledrum

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I'd agree - even just in the last five years there's been a Great Leap Forward - not just in terms of what we've built/ committed to build but also (and more importantly?) the fact that for the first time I remember investment in rail seems to have all-party support.

Impressive debate with some interesting points covered. The MPs who participated made some good points. It's good improving the line between Brighton and London is high on the agenda, the on-going electrification of other routes is also really positive. The worrying aspects of the debate were the political dogma on the privatisation of the DOR's East Coast Operation and the debate about the lack of benefits from the extension of the GWML franchise and the West Coast franchise.
 

LateThanNever

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HS2 is expensive enough as it is without trying to provide 465 journey possibilities. Its not the answer to everything, I wish people would stop criticising it for not being something that its never pretended to be. I'm all for High Speed rail to other places too, but one step at a time, eh?

Certainly one step at a time but I thought the idea was that so much money on one project was not the best use of resources. Which if benefits are cut and we cannot afford police wages to abuse Andrew Mitchell ;) there may be other priorities - such as much more electrification.
 

47802

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While I do agree we need improved communication between all our major cities, however I think the one thing that people forget in the London centric argument, is that London is the one city where a long distance passenger would probably consider public transport as the first choice over the car, where as for many other journeys to other cities the car would be the first choice.
 

The Ham

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I recently came across this :

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2013...are-killing-the-european-railway-network.html

which in a way is making the same point. We need to invest in a network covering as wide a range of centres of population as possible.

Even with HS2, there is a lot of investment already committed for our existing network. THe other point of note is that HS2 is bypassing (or serving them by means of an out of city station) some farily major centers of population and as such there will still be the need for longer distance trains on the existing network.

Also it is likely that XC will mostly servive, as although it provides IC length routes a lot of people use them for shorter journies, meaning that even if the WCML services are run as shorterend routes XC will still provide a number of longer routes. However given that there is demand for cross Birmingham services (i.e. Wolverhampton to Coventry) it is likely that having Birmingham as a breakpoint for the WCML services isn't likely to work and as such there would still be a number of through routes. There could even be enough demand for an hourly end to end service from Scotland to London along both the WCML and ECML, although if there isn't it is likely to be atleast semi regular (one every 2 to 3 hours).

It is also worth bearing in mind that HS2 is looking to provide capacity enhancements to three lines, where at least two of them are running a fairly frequent IC service. This is likely to be different to the Euopean example where mostly HS lines are to with getting there faster for the headline routes and only for one line.

The problem is that our rail network has been maintaing a growth rate of about 5% for most years for some time now, meaning that even with HS2 there will be lots of other routes which will see there passsenger numbers overloading them.

SWML is in need for something and is likely to get Crossrail 2 (proberbly as well as other investment) in some form in the same sort of time frame as HS2, GWML will likely need more than Crossrail electrification and IEP (even if the IEP lengthened to 11 coaches) in the same timeframe. XC is likely to get longer stock in its next franchise (leading to another boost in passenger numbers) meaning that it may well be looking for a more frequent service pattern over some of it's routes and maybe even some new routes post HS2.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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While I do agree we need improved communication between all our major cities, however I think the one thing that people forget in the London centric argument, is that London is the one city where a long distance passenger would probably consider public transport as the first choice over the car, where as for many other journeys to other cities the car would be the first choice.

Would you say that the financial stricture of the London congestion charge has put more emphasis upon the reliance on public transport there ?
 

47802

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Would you say that the financial stricture of the London congestion charge has put more emphasis upon the reliance on public transport there ?

I think it has some bearing on it along with traffic and parking, but a key factor is the underground/overground systems which most other cities don't have.

I had a training course last year, originally it was going to be in Manchester where I might have taken the car, but then it got moved to London where I wouldn't have considered taking the car.
 

Hophead

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Would you say that the financial stricture of the London congestion charge has put more emphasis upon the reliance on public transport there ?

No. I would say that the availability of comprehensive public transport enabled the introduction of the charge (along with it being concentrated in an area in which few people live and even fewer would ever have considered driving Monday to Friday). Think this might be a bit OT, unless someone is going to bring up the old City of London / Westminster argument.
 
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Its not the answer to everything, I wish people would stop criticising it for not being something that its never pretended to be. I'm all for High Speed rail to other places too, but one step at a time, eh?

I agree, Rome wasn't built in a day. And a lot of people still don't understand that HS2 is not necessarily about speed ('who wants to get from Manchester to London 20 mins faster?'), but releasing capacity on the WCML, high speed is simply a by-product.

I'm not sure HS2 will pose an existential threat to the classic high speed routes either, as others have said there are lots of large towns and cities that won't be served by either captive or classic HS2 services. That assumption also takes the view that all passengers are going from/to London from/to x, rather than intercity services in a more literal sense, ie. Manchester to Milton Keynes, or Preston to Wolverhampton.
 

dysonsphere

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Well I live in Stoke on Trent and if there is 2 or more of you are travelling its cheaper to take a mini cab rather than a bus untill they fix this buses are a no a lost cause. And since they closed the loop line in the 60,s trains are hopeless as well.
 

RichW1

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I do think we need to be careful over what we label as a 'city'. in this country we have a very low population threshold for what we label a city. Most of them in this country are really just very large towns. I am always struck by foreign friends (well business associates) from China and US who comment on this so I explain the past historical reasons. This has no bearing today so when we think of Intercity services, I am on the fence as to whether they should be calling at many places. There is a wider reason for this......

If trains stop, people live there, and then there are those that demand direct links and in the end we end up with continuous stations with a case for stopping. This also has the effect of building commuter towns un-necessarily instead of building up a city closer by and we end of with slower services and less continuous countryside. I am no supporter of the green-belt (but that's a separate issue) as I think it's destroyed more than it's saved but ...I do feel Intercity services should serve cities and very large towns and there should be some common sense here that if you live in a field or in a small town, there are consequences to doing so both good and bad. I don't think in such settlements Intercity's are a right or add anything to the economy except changing the nature of a once rural part of the world.
 
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I do think we need to be careful over what we label as a 'city'. in this country we have a very low population threshold for what we label a city. Most of them in this country are really just very large towns. I am always struck by foreign friends (well business associates) from China and US who comment on this so I explain the past historical reasons. This has no bearing today so when we think of Intercity services, I am on the fence as to whether they should be calling at many places. There is a wider reason for this......

If trains stop, people live there, and then there are those that demand direct links and in the end we end up with continuous stations with a case for stopping. This also has the effect of building commuter towns un-necessarily instead of building up a city closer by and we end of with slower services and less continuous countryside. I am no supporter of the green-belt (but that's a separate issue) as I think it's destroyed more than it's saved but ...I do feel Intercity services should serve cities and very large towns and there should be some common sense here that if you live in a field or in a small town, there are consequences to doing so both good and bad. I don't think in such settlements Intercity's are a right or add anything to the economy except changing the nature of a once rural part of the world.

I think Virgin have struck the right balance there between fast non-stop services with varied calling patterns. Same with East Coast. But there are also some small towns that are almost entirely dependent on 'intercity' services, Berwick for example.
 

Carlisle

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I find it a bit strange 'Rich W1' says people from USA and China think many or our cities are 'just large towns' when driving through America even the smallest towns and villages have "city limits " signs on entry and exit
 
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ainsworth74

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I was thinking that, there are tiny places (few hundred people) that are 'cities' in the US, you won't find that over here!
 

Muzer

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Hence the really irritating prevalence of "city" on web forms, for instance, when (in the UK at least) this really means "post town" - at least, as far as I can tell. Everything's a city in America.
 

yorksrob

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Hence the really irritating prevalence of "city" on web forms, for instance, when (in the UK at least) this really means "post town" - at least, as far as I can tell. Everything's a city in America.

There‘s a school of thought in America that a small town is just a failed city.
 

Bantamzen

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I recently came across this :

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2013...are-killing-the-european-railway-network.html

which in a way is making the same point. We need to invest in a network covering as wide a range of centres of population as possible.

That was an interesting link, so thank you for posting it.

It's certainly interesting to read that many longer distance services have been superseded by the faster, but also considerably more expensive HS routes. So will this also be true of HS2 once built? One of the strongest arguments for HS2 is that it will significantly increase the capacity between the cities linked by it, but if the West European model is followed might it not be the case that existing WCML/ECML service would be severely curtailed leaving only HS as a viable route from the Midlands/North into London? And if the potential fare increases mirror those cited in the article then this might also restrict it's appeal to the wider travelling public, and possibly spark a budget airline market for the same routes, putting even more strain on the existing airspace?

It could lead to the much discussed scenario of HS2 simply becoming a commuter route to London for the well-off business community, leaving fewer benefits to the rest of the country (it is possible that investment might suffer in the future if HS2 costs go beyond their initial £28B plus reserves). And it's this that does concern a lot of the public at the moment who might not be best pleased if HS2 pushes up the cost of rail travel, whilst reducing different journey options between the served cities when a significant amount of tax payer's money has been sunk into it. Now I've said it before, I'm not opposed to HS2 in principle, there are lots of potential benefits, but the kinds of issues raised in that article need to be addressed. However having read a fair bit of the business cases & studies, as well as many discussions on forums like this, I'm not yet convinced that these issues have been fully addressed. And so long as they exist, they have the potential to create more political opposition to the project & could even possibly derail it before a single metre of track is laid on the ground.

I think a lot more work needs to be done between the politicians & the rail industry before we settle on the long term plan. A fully integrated, InterCity network will be important for the future prospects of this country, allowing new business & employment opportunities to arise, as well as offering leisure travel opportunities which will help spark off economies in the slightly more far flung areas of our Isles. I hope that HS2 will become part of a quality rail network, which is efficient and affordable for all & this is what all concerned need to work towards.
 

The Ham

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That was an interesting link, so thank you for posting it.

It's certainly interesting to read that many longer distance services have been superseded by the faster, but also considerably more expensive HS routes. So will this also be true of HS2 once built? One of the strongest arguments for HS2 is that it will significantly increase the capacity between the cities linked by it, but if the West European model is followed might it not be the case that existing WCML/ECML service would be severely curtailed leaving only HS as a viable route from the Midlands/North into London? And if the potential fare increases mirror those cited in the article then this might also restrict it's appeal to the wider travelling public, and possibly spark a budget airline market for the same routes, putting even more strain on the existing airspace?

It could lead to the much discussed scenario of HS2 simply becoming a commuter route to London for the well-off business community, leaving fewer benefits to the rest of the country (it is possible that investment might suffer in the future if HS2 costs go beyond their initial £28B plus reserves). And it's this that does concern a lot of the public at the moment who might not be best pleased if HS2 pushes up the cost of rail travel, whilst reducing different journey options between the served cities when a significant amount of tax payer's money has been sunk into it. Now I've said it before, I'm not opposed to HS2 in principle, there are lots of potential benefits, but the kinds of issues raised in that article need to be addressed. However having read a fair bit of the business cases & studies, as well as many discussions on forums like this, I'm not yet convinced that these issues have been fully addressed. And so long as they exist, they have the potential to create more political opposition to the project & could even possibly derail it before a single metre of track is laid on the ground.

I think a lot more work needs to be done between the politicians & the rail industry before we settle on the long term plan. A fully integrated, InterCity network will be important for the future prospects of this country, allowing new business & employment opportunities to arise, as well as offering leisure travel opportunities which will help spark off economies in the slightly more far flung areas of our Isles. I hope that HS2 will become part of a quality rail network, which is efficient and affordable for all & this is what all concerned need to work towards.

What happens to the passenger services on the WCML is likely to be subject to passenger numbers once HS2 is open. However what should be remembered is that HS2 will be bypassing a lot of towns which have a fairly high number of passengers (e.g. Watford, Milton Keynes, Coventry, etc.), as such there is still going to be a lot of demand for travel from such places to the two places either side of them where there is a HS station. Which is only likely to get a lot more once some to all of the long distance passengers move over to HS2.

It also depends on who will be running the services, as if the Virgin services gets split between HS2 and London Midland which are run by different companies then there could still be a certain amount of competition between the two.

Looking at passenger numbers:

If we have zero growth from now to 2026 (or so that growth went up and then went into reverse until then) then the number of passengers on HS2 would be 80% of that expected in the model. However I am very doubtful that this would be the case and even if it were there would likely be a small increase once HS2 phase 1 opened and would mean that HS2 phase 2 only made to the planning phase before being canned.

If we have just 1% growth per year from now until 2026 then the number of passengers on HS2 would be 90% of that expected in the model. Again this outcome is doubtful (although a bit more likely than the above).

If we have 2.5% growth per year (the growth rate used in the model) we could see passenger numbers at 7% above that in the original model. This is a much more likely outcome than either of the above two outcomes.

If we see 4% growth (which is less than we've seen since the start of the model) we could even see passenger numbers over 25% higher than the original model. I can see that this could be less likely than the 2.5% growth as there is only so much spare capacity that can be got out of the WCML so growth would start to tail off. However, I would suggest that it is more likely than the first two models and may even be about as likely as the 2.5% growth scenario.

We therefore run the real risk that we could likely be seeing more passengers than the model for HS2 predicted and even if we don't it's not going to be far off the figures in the model.

Even if we do see about what the model predicted or slightly less, once HS2 phase 1 opens there would be an additional uplift as there would be a lot of spare capacity and the operators would want to fill their trains and as the bypassed stations potentially see a more frequent (if a little slower) service.
 

tbtc

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What happens to the passenger services on the WCML is likely to be subject to passenger numbers once HS2 is open. However what should be remembered is that HS2 will be bypassing a lot of towns which have a fairly high number of passengers (e.g. Watford, Milton Keynes, Coventry, etc.), as such there is still going to be a lot of demand for travel from such places to the two places either side of them where there is a HS station. Which is only likely to get a lot more once some to all of the long distance passengers move over to HS2

This is an important point that a few HS2 critics have missed.

If HS2 served all of these places then there'd be even less need for "conventional" WCML services (e.g. for those who want HS2 to serve MK, Cov), as well as make HS2 services too busy.

The proposals seem to be a reasonable split to ensure that there can be two seperate markets, each with a healthy number of passengers.
 
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This is an important point that a few HS2 critics have missed.

If HS2 served all of these places then there'd be even less need for "conventional" WCML services (e.g. for those who want HS2 to serve MK, Cov), as well as make HS2 services too busy.

The proposals seem to be a reasonable split to ensure that there can be two seperate markets, each with a healthy number of passengers.

The whole point of wanting HS2 to stop at MK, Cov etc. is so there is no need for "conventional services" thereby creating the space for new commuter trains. There isn't the space for additional commuter trains and to keep a sufficient service for those intermediate cities and large towns - something you wilfully ignore time after time...
 

RichW1

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I should clarify the above.... when I meant international clients talking about our other cities being 'large towns' or 'compact' cities as they put it, what they were referring to is the physical geography. For example, whilst there are small places in America calling themselves cities, this does not apply to their number two and three cities. In America, their second largest city has an urbanised land area the same as all the northern cities surrounding the Pennines (that are admittedly contiguous here but with much smaller centres as the domination is split between all of them) combined. This city is LA with over 20 million people. There is Osaka in Japan with 18million and third is Kyoto with around 10-12million. Even if you take Chicago and look at Google mapping, the area centred on Chicago that is one city area is 100miles wide and 40 miles deep in almost a rectangle that then stretches around Lake Michigan. Do the same with Detroit or Philadelphia or San Francisco. They maybe smaller but still as large as London's mass of around 80 miles wide and 30 - 40 miles deep depending on where the measurement's taken from. These cities are Liverpool to Leeds eqivalent in area with one culture and one center.

Look at China, the same there. Here, London's urbanised area is over 15million people. Our second city in its actual size (not the size denoted by boundaries which tell you nothing about a city's true size or economy) is Manchester with about 4.5 million people in a contiguous built up area with Manchester at the core. This urbanised land is then joined to the next place around the Pennines but (and here's the difference), the urban landmass is less dense (because of past de-industrialisation and bulldozing afterwards as well as bombing) and the centres are correspondingly much smaller. So you don't have an urban area with a centre and GDP output of 20million, but of between 2 and 5 million. This makes the 'feel' of the cities much smaller than their US, China or Japanese counterparts.

If all the cities around the Pennines were one city, that would be the population equivalent of our foreign counter-parts' 'second' cities.

So where Intercity's stop I think is really important to long-term planning and policy decisions. For example, economically, Milton Keynes is attached to London (no they aren't included as part of London's population above because it isn't continuously built up suburbs to Milton Keynes) but should this town have HS2 trains stopping? I just don't see the case.
Surely HS2 must be to connect the big cities promoting growth and connectivity whilst the conventional lines at 140mph with future technology connect the rest with equally good services.

If we have a policy of small places having Intercity's it does two things - promotes overcrowding on those trains and secondly, reduces capacity over all. It also increases people's decisions to move to areas they otherwise wouldn't and then it's difficult to get faster times to anywhere when regional services should be taking this role.

In the end the whole world is moving towards large centres of activity being the drivers of ideas and GDP. Facilitating the growth of these economic incubators is more important than providing services where others should be doing the work. I just strongly believ Intercity should mean just that, include parkways stations yes to promote suburban activity more too but Intercity shouldn't become Intervillage IMHO
 

cslusarc

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I just want to say that I live in the Canadian Province of Manitoba. In Manitoba, any urban municipality with a population of 7500 or more can be designated a city, but in some other provinces in Canada a city only needs 5000 residents.
 
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