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Great Western Electrification Progress

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HSTEd

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Yet again the nonsense about serving Devon and Cornwall via Bristol resurfaces from some. Inevitable delays behind Weston stoppers would make this a totally unrealistic idea.

The 'Weston Stoppers' that apparently hold up the numerous XC trains on the route? They seem to manage reasonable journey times as it is.
And the Weston Stoppers will be getting faster due to the electrification.

Neither will 'the long way round' ever match journey times already possible via B&H - 2 hours to Exeter was delivered with semaphore signalling in the early 80s!

So explain why the journey between Paddington and Bristol Parkway and the journey between Bristol Parkway and Taunton will not add up to be approximately equal to the journey time between Taunton and Paddington?

The IEP improvements alone erase the B&H time advantage.

The B&H is not some secondary backwater, it's a busy 100 /110 mph mainline carrying 9 westbound expresses between 1500 and 1945 alone each weekday. FGW doesn't just run them for fun.

Yes, because currently the B&H is the faster route.
It will not necessarily be like this forever.
100mph cannot compete with 125mph/140mph over long distances like the Taunton-Reading run.
Especially considering the route via the B&H isn't actually that much shorter than the route via Bristol.

Electrification of the route will be inevitable, but everyone knows it must join the queue. We can't wire everything at once.

I doubt it is 'inevitable'.
It almost certainly comes after the Cross Country Route to Plymouth which combined with the speed advantages that are probably going to be offered via Bristol will destroy the business case.
 
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starrymarkb

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Wonder if a Bi-Mode IEP would be able to out accelerate an HST? Reason being is on a twisty route like the B&H improved acceleration would improve journey times, of course if the wiring then goes up then the acceleration gets better though the speeds are lower then then Great Way Round the improved acceleration will erase some of that advantage.

Via Parkway adds 20 minutes on a clear run and that's with sustained 125mph running Parkway to Reading.
 

HSTEd

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Wonder if a Bi-Mode IEP would be able to out accelerate an HST? Reason being is on a twisty route like the B&H improved acceleration would improve journey times.

Yes, a Bi-Mode IEP will leave a HST for dead.
Since a HST is a DC traction motored loco hauled formation and not a modern high power EMU.

of course if the wiring then goes up then the acceleration gets better though the speeds are lower then then Great Way Round the improved acceleration will erase some of that advantage.

Its not much a Great Way Round, instead of 107 miles its 127 miles via Bristol which is hardly a game breaker.
And remember the line between Bristol and Taunton is certainly capable of 125mph running over large sections, perhaps even significant sections of 140mph.
The latter is especially likely if IEPs end up on XC at some point.

Via Parkway adds 20 minutes on a clear run and that's with sustained 125mph running Parkway to Reading.

Now spend the money that woudl be spent wiring the B&H on speed improvements between Bristol and Taunton.
The track alignment is certainly rather higher quality.
 

TheWalrus

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I think that the following service pattern between the 'Berks and Hants' route and Reading might provide better value for money than those suggested so far:
  • Paddington-Plymouth/Penzance
    • Present Intercity Service
    • 1tph
  • Reading-Plymouth
    • Semi-Fast
    • Class 166 Operated
    • 1tph
  • Reading-Taunton
    • Fast from Reading to Newbury and then all stations to Taunton
    • Class 166 Operated
    • 1tph
  • Paddington-Newbury
    • Travels along fast tracks between Paddington and Reading (could stop at Slough or Maidenhead)
    • All stations from Reading to Newbury
    • Thames Valley EMU operated
    • 2tph

But who's going to get on all of these?

Are the stations between Taunton and Newbury so quiet that they can't justify a 2tph 3-car service?
. I think 1tph 3 -car west of Newbury would suffice to form a basic service.
 

Xavi

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The 'Weston Stoppers' that apparently hold up the numerous XC trains on the route? They seem to manage reasonable journey times as it is.
And the Weston Stoppers will be getting faster due to the electrification.



So explain why the journey between Paddington and Bristol Parkway and the journey between Bristol Parkway and Taunton will not add up to be approximately equal to the journey time between Taunton and Paddington?

The IEP improvements alone erase the B&H time advantage.



Yes, because currently the B&H is the faster route.
It will not necessarily be like this forever.
100mph cannot compete with 125mph/140mph over long distances like the Taunton-Reading run.
Especially considering the route via the B&H isn't actually that much shorter than the route via Bristol.



I doubt it is 'inevitable'.
It almost certainly comes after the Cross Country Route to Plymouth which combined with the speed advantages that are probably going to be offered via Bristol will destroy the business case.

You want to try XC BTM - Taunton and you'll soon find that 45 mins after crawling behind a WSM stopper is a daily occurrence without accommodating additional services!

IEP will not do Paddington - Taunton via Bristol Pkway in under 1 hr 35 mins in any circumstances.

The current agenda is about creating extra capacity not throwing it away. Network Rail won't give the idea of downgrading the B&H a moment of thought, it won't align with policy for the rest of the network.

I did say electrification will have to join the queue. Also, once the XC route is wired, the infill from Newbury to Cogload will be a very simple high output job with an overwhelming business case.

Besides, where does anyone assume you sit the 400+ passengers on most of the Devon & Cornwall expresses if you send them via Bristol? Two trains into one? The new fast Bristol IEPs will serve a market for Bristol alone.
 

The Ham

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I think that the following service pattern between the 'Berks and Hants' route and Reading might provide better value for money than those suggested so far:
  • Paddington-Plymouth/Penzance
    • Present Intercity Service
    • 1tph
  • Reading-Plymouth
    • Semi-Fast
    • Class 166 Operated
    • 1tph
  • Reading-Taunton
    • Fast from Reading to Newbury and then all stations to Taunton
    • Class 166 Operated
    • 1tph
  • Paddington-Newbury
    • Travels along fast tracks between Paddington and Reading (could stop at Slough or Maidenhead)
    • All stations from Reading to Newbury
    • Thames Valley EMU operated
    • 2tph

I'm also not sure an extra service between Reading and Taunton would be that much use (if it were to exist it would probably be better to run further west - e.g. Exeter or Paignton). The following may work better, although it allows the possibility of an extra service from Reading in the future if it were required (although it very much depends).

  • Paddington-Plymouth/Penzance
    • Present Intercity Service
    • 1tph
  • Reading-Plymouth/Paignton (possibly some services could run into London)
    • Semi-Fast (Fast from Reading to Newbury and then to serve all stations on at least once every 2 hours - although some of the Devon stations could be missed out to speed it up a bit after Exeter)
    • Class 166 Operated
    • 1tph
  • Paddington-Newbury (timetabled to allow connections with the semi fasts at Newbury for passengers to/from London)
    • Travels along fast tracks between Paddington and Reading (could stop at Slough or Maidenhead)
    • All stations from Reading to Newbury
    • Thames Valley EMU operated
    • 2tph

The advantage of the Reading to Plymouth/Paignton semi fast is even if it took longer than the present Intercity services for some journeys (depending on departure times) it would still be faster to use the slower service. For instance Exeter to Reading with 5 additional stops could only take about 20 minutes more time than an express and if you'd otherwise have to wait 30 minutes or more for it (as they only run about once per hour) then it would probably be worth going on the slower train (especially if there was more space for you on the slower train).

This then means that the semi fast would take a few people who would otherwise use the intercity services, meaning that there is then more space for passenger growth for the time being. These passenger would then transfer back to the intercity services once they become more frequent, however by then the semi fasts should then have increased the number of people travelling to/from the more minor stations enough to then justify the continuation of the semi fasts.

Alternatively, the semi fasts could skip a few more stations if at least some of the Newbury EMU's were extend, to say Bedwyn or Westbury, following partial electrification of the B&H. This would then make them a bit faster and therefore more likely to take a slightly larger chunk of the longer distance market, which would also provide some more space on the intercity services. This speed enhancement would be further enhanced once the whole line was fully electrified.
 

Goatboy

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This then means that the semi fast would take a few people who would otherwise use the intercity services

3 hours 30 minutes from Plymouth to London on a Class 166 sounds fairly horrendous (Yes, I know, it's similar from Hereford and thats equally unacceptable) to me. We should be using DMU's like this LESS on long distance services not more.
 

The Ham

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3 hours 30 minutes from Plymouth to London on a Class 166 sounds fairly horrendous (Yes, I know, it's similar from Hereford and thats equally unacceptable) to me. We should be using DMU's like this LESS on long distance services not more.

It is more likely to be over 4 hours, however given that most of the direct intercity services would be at least 30 minutes faster then it is unlikely that there would be many people who would use it end to end. However there would be a number of people who would be willing to travel over shorter but still fairly long distances (as suggested Exeter to Reading) as it would get them where they needed in a better timeframe.

For instance there is a service which currently calls at (which is a similar calling pattern to what was being proposed, although it calls 10 stations when there are only 11 between Exeter and Newbury and it was suggested that some stops would only be served every 2 hours):
11:54 Exeter St Davids
12:09 Tiverton Parkway
12:24 Taunton
12:45 Castle Cary
13:05 Westbury
13:22 Pewsey
13:33 Bedwyn
13:40 Hungerford
13:50 Newbury Station
13:57 Thatcham
14:06 Theale
14:17 Reading Station

Which takes 2:22, compared with the fastest travel time between Exeter and Reading of about 1:30 (although most services are closer to 1:45). Yes if the next train to Reading from Exeter only takes 90 min you're going to wait for that over a train which takes 140min (unless it's over 50 minutes later). However if the next train takes 105min and isn't for another 45min then you may take the slower train as it will get you there 10 minutes earlier.

If you look at service patterns and time from just one station closer (Tiverton Parkway) and the current service patten can mean that the gap between sub 2 hour trains to Reading is 2 hours and the semi fasts look a lot more promising. Even as far up as Castle Cary it can be a 3 hour wait between direct services (the indirect services take over 2 hours).

Whilst by the time you get to Westbury (where the travel time difference to Reading will be much lower, even on the above service pattern it's 20 minutes) where the gap between direct services can easily be 2 hours and the indirect services take at least 30 minutes longer than the direct then the semi fasts really come into their own.

Not only on direct services, but the semi fasts could make Weymouth to Reading at least comparable in terms of timings as using SWT's and XC/GW going via Southampton, depending on change times it could even give SWT's a run for their money for people going to London from Weymouth.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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No posts on electrification progress for nearly 4 weeks.
Is nothing happening in GW-land?
That's another month out of the timescale to reach Oxford/Bristol in 2016.
I thought we would have at least heard some progress reports about the HOPS train being ready to start...
Or is it all happening but not getting reported?
 

swt_passenger

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No posts on electrification progress for nearly 4 weeks.
Is nothing happening in GW-land?
That's another month out of the timescale to reach Oxford/Bristol in 2016.
I thought we would have at least heard some progress reports about the HOPS train being ready to start...
Or is it all happening but not getting reported?

There were signs on RTT that the HOPS was only moved from High Marnham to Swindon last Thursday.

I've read somewhere that Amey's contract to operate it only starts in April, but I can't find a link at the moment.
 

59CosG95

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There were signs on RTT that the HOPS was only moved from High Marnham to Swindon last Thursday.

I've read somewhere that Amey's contract to operate it only starts in April, but I can't find a link at the moment.

That is because, I believe, that CP5 actually starts in April (on 1.4.14) and I think that since iit's a CP5 project, it'll start around then.
 

76020

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No posts on electrification progress for nearly 4 weeks.
Is nothing happening in GW-land?
That's another month out of the timescale to reach Oxford/Bristol in 2016.
I thought we would have at least heard some progress reports about the HOPS train being ready to start...
Or is it all happening but not getting reported?

I went to Swansea from London eight days ago and the only thing which has progressed over the last month or so as far as I could see was that there was more new AWS magnets installed, this was west of Maidenhead, also more progress of the Reading flyover of coarse and a few more masts just east of Reading but nothing else.
 
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davetheguard

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No posts on electrification progress for nearly 4 weeks.
Is nothing happening in GW-land?
That's another month out of the timescale to reach Oxford/Bristol in 2016.
I thought we would have at least heard some progress reports about the HOPS train being ready to start...
Or is it all happening but not getting reported?

Came back from Paddington on a Carmarthen HST last Sunday.

Lots of work around Acton & Airport Junction on the new diveunder and extended flyover respectively. Of course, these are strictly Crossrail rather than GW electrification works, but they do include some new & re-sited masts for the overhead.

There appears to be more gantries up in the Reading station area than I remember compared to just before Christmas. And there's a few piled bases beside the Up Relief line between Reading & Didcot.

The overbridge known as Fulscot Bridge (next to the Moreton cutting electrification depot, just east of Didcot) is currently closed to road traffic for a few weeks as it is being jacked up to provide enhanced clearances for the wires. This is possibly the last bridge between Reading & Oxford that requires attention? - although one bridge between Tilehurst & Pangbourne was listed by the local authority and so cannot be rebuilt like the others, the track will be lowered, instead; I'm not sure if this has happened yet.
 

YorkshireBear

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Until April is a lull for the end of CP4. Work will start in earnest on various projects once CP5 starts, is the same in all industries with 5 year cycles.
 

anthony263

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Until April is a lull for the end of CP4. Work will start in earnest on various projects once CP5 starts, is the same in all industries with 5 year cycles.

Agreed once April comes I suspect we will be see ing works starting at various places along the GWML especially between Airport Junction and Didcot.
 

LexyBoy

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Work is supposed to being done near Didcot on the electrifcation substation there

There's a lot of tree clearance been done around the western curve and now a new access road round the back of the trailer park. Don't know if this is to do with the substation or just general access to the line though.
 

YorkshireBear

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Saw an article on my mobile today regarding the GWML electrification being a farce. Can't find it now, but basically local newspapers are not happy about Balfour Beatty shutting so many bridges. Local annoyance at the project.
 

fsmr

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None of the knitting has gone up yet i assume? Just supporting infrastructure
 

anthony263

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Still waiting to see when they start work on the Passenger Shed at Temple Meads!

Going to be a long while yet at least until resignalling is completed around Bristol.

That said I think it will be brilliannt to see the train shed returned to its original purpose
 

LNW-GW Joint

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That is because, I believe, that CP5 actually starts in April (on 1.4.14) and I think that since iit's a CP5 project, it'll start around then.

GW Electrification has been going for 3 years already and funding is spread over CP4 and CP5.

Until April is a lull for the end of CP4. Work will start in earnest on various projects once CP5 starts, is the same in all industries with 5 year cycles.

There should be no "lull" on the highest-profile project NR has.
The CP4 milestones (Dec 2013) said the HOPS kit should be "ready for use" in October 2013 (piling), November (construction), March 2014 (wiring).
It's hard not to conclude they are already running late with the main line work.
 

YorkshireBear

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GW Electrification has been going for 3 years already and funding is spread over CP4 and CP5.



There should be no "lull" on the highest-profile project NR has.
The CP4 milestones (Dec 2013) said the HOPS kit should be "ready for use" in October 2013 (piling), November (construction), March 2014 (wiring).
It's hard not to conclude they are already running late with the main line work.

There should not you are correct. That does not mean there has not though does there? But recently the government have been very good at making sure little money is spent before the deadline to transfer it. It has been done in many situations and i suspect here too.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There should not you are correct. That does not mean there has not though does there? But recently the government have been very good at making sure little money is spent before the deadline to transfer it. It has been done in many situations and i suspect here too.

I should think the DfT is hopping from one foot to the other trying to get NR to wire faster, on all the approved routes.
 

ianhr

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I should think the DfT is hopping from one foot to the other trying to get NR to wire faster, on all the approved routes.

If they do not get the wiring contracts let soon for all these electrification schemes there is going to be a General Election in early 2015, and then everything will be put on hold while there is another spending review. That will either be the end for most of this programmed work or at best will set everything back at least another 2 years.

I do not really want to bring politics into this but if the Labour party get in they do not have a good record on railway investment. Virtually nothing was done during the Blair-Brown Governments when the attitude was that everybody can make do with DMUs, even on routes which are wired!
 

swt_passenger

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If they do not get the wiring contracts let soon for all these electrification schemes...

The contracts have been let - ages ago. Amey were awarded the GWML wiring from Maidenhead to Oxford, Newbury and Cardiff nearly two years ago, in March 2012.

People seem to be assuming that the day after the contract is let work starts on the ground, this is certainly not the case.
 

joeykins82

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Virtually nothing was done during the Blair-Brown Governments when the attitude was that everybody can make do with DMUs, even on routes which are wired!
Successive transport secretaries were anti-rail, but virtually everything positive that's currently happening was started by Andrew Adonis
 
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