Doors opened with carriages off the platform

RailwayDan · 25 Feb 2014

Just been on a train in Southeastern land (won't name train here), train stopped and doors were opened - the rear 1 1/2 carriages being off the platform.

Luckily train was lightly loaded and no-one attempted to jump down to the track and everyone made it off the train okay. Driver seemed not to realise and shut doors and went off as normal.

I do not want to get the driver in question in trouble, but this could have potentially been quite a serious incident.

What is normal procedure for this? Can the driver tell if the train is fully in the platform on the DOO cameras?

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Matt Taylor · 25 Feb 2014

RailwayDan said:
Can the driver tell if the train is fully in the platform on the DOO cameras?

They certainly are supposed to have a view of the complete (platformed) train to ensure these incidents don't happen and to ensure the doors are safely closed prior to leaving.

Crossover · 25 Feb 2014

I saw something similar recently in an area with guards. The one I saw was caused by the unit being 'called on' into an occupied platform and the driver of the already platformed unit hadn't taken his unit far enough forward by a long shot! To my amazement the guard opened up, though the door off the platform (likely local door too) appeared to never open. It was only when the driver alighted that I made mention the last driver had left him 'a little tight for space'!

SETCommuter · 25 Feb 2014

RailwayDan said:
Just been on a train in Southeastern land (won't name train here), train stopped and doors were opened - the rear 1 1/2 carriages being off the platform.

Luckily train was lightly loaded and no-one attempted to jump down to the track and everyone made it off the train okay. Driver seemed not to realise and shut doors and went off as normal.

I do not want to get the driver in question in trouble, but this could have potentially been quite a serious incident.

What is normal procedure for this? Can the driver tell if the train is fully in the platform on the DOO cameras?

Out of interest, why wouldn't you want the driver to "get in trouble" ?

Cherry_Picker · 25 Feb 2014

SETCommuter said:
Out of interest, why wouldn't you want the driver to "get in trouble" ?

No harm no foul? Maybe the driver realised but it was too late to do anything?

SETCommuter · 25 Feb 2014

Cherry_Picker said:
No harm no foul? Maybe the driver realised but it was too late to do anything?

So we should wait until the driver makes the same mistake again ?

What if the driver didn't realise ?

Passengers often make "mistakes" yet the railway come down on them hard...

irish_rail · 25 Feb 2014

More to the point why would you want to "get the driver in trouble".???!!!

People make mistakes, it was almost certainly a one off, why involve management?

As a driver myself, im pretty sure that this incident would have given the guy a wake up call that he wont forget, and the OP is doing the right thing in not giving exact details

High Dyke · 25 Feb 2014

Were the doors that weren't at the platform able to be opened? I was on a XC train recently where the rear two coaches were off the platform at a number of stations. None of those doors were able to be opened by passengers on the train.

Wyvern · 25 Feb 2014

Many trains which stop at short platforms have what a facility built into them called Selective Door Opening.

In general though the unit pulls up to the appropriate stop sign on the platform. Maybe in this case the driver had, for instance, been driving a two car set beforehand, and forgetting a second set had been added to his train, had stoppd at the wrong board. For instance. It happens. Avoiding this is one of the functions of a guard.

Cliveblackpool · 25 Feb 2014

Probably a lot of drivers, if they saw their mistake, will report it themselves!

ess · 25 Feb 2014

Did this happen much in the days of slam doors? Did passengers often just jump out when they weren't at a station?

Carlisle · 25 Feb 2014

ess said:
Did this happen much in the days of slam doors? Did passengers often just jump out when they weren't at a station?

I can recall travelling on slam door trains into Waterloo in the morning peak of the early 90s and I think then it was standard procedure for the guard to have to dispatch the train in the normal way if we were held at any signals with any part of the train on station platforms we were not booked to stop at like Vauxhall etc I'm sure others on here can say if this is right and explain a lot better

Lockwood · 25 Feb 2014

ess said:
Did this happen much in the days of slam doors? Did passengers often just jump out when they weren't at a station?

I've been let off 8 car slamdoors at Bedhampton onto the ramp many times before now, after being told to put a cycle into the rear unit by the guard (often with the front one being locked).
It was more common to be asked "Would you be able to step down onto the ramp?" than the guard get the driver to draw forward.

hairyhandedfool · 25 Feb 2014

RailwayDan said:
Just been on a train in Southeastern land (won't name train here), train stopped and doors were opened - the rear 1 1/2 carriages being off the platform.

Luckily train was lightly loaded and no-one attempted to jump down to the track and everyone made it off the train okay. Driver seemed not to realise and shut doors and went off as normal.

I do not want to get the driver in question in trouble, but this could have potentially been quite a serious incident.

What is normal procedure for this? Can the driver tell if the train is fully in the platform on the DOO cameras?

I think you are right not to say what the train is on a forum, but tbh, even as railway staff myself, I think that, if it was definitely stopped short (not 'too long for the platform'), you should report it to the TOC (if you can't report it to the guard/driver directly). It's not about getting people in trouble, it's not about saving someone's skin, it's about safety.

I wouldn't be happy if someone reported me (indeed I wasn't when someone falsely reported that I had overshot once), but equally, I'd try damned hard never to do it again.

I personally have never used the on-train type cameras, but it is very easy with the platform mounted cameras, Thameslink even gave out laminated A5 size cards to drivers, with a '4' on one side and '8' on the other, to act as a reminder of how long their train is.

WessexEclectic · 25 Feb 2014

ess said:
Did this happen much in the days of slam doors? Did passengers often just jump out when they weren't at a station?

Possibly not as many as you would think because it was a common everyday feature so people would have been more aware of the risk; 'though maybe not if you were some of the kids at my school!

What is amazing today is the number of times passengers try to leave the train if it has been delayed (and stationary!) - none of the passengers are in immediate danger yet either the claustrophobia/stress or delay to their life is too much.

dannypye9999 · 25 Feb 2014

RailwayDan said:
I do not want to get the driver in question in trouble, but this could have potentially been quite a serious incident.

So you think its acceptable to let the driver off and sit around waiting for that potential serious incident before we do anything?

najaB · 25 Feb 2014

WessexEclectic said:
Possibly not as many as you would think because it was a common everyday feature....

Plus, I'm willing to bet, society was much less litigious - so people tended to look before they leapt, rather than leaping and suing afterwards.

grid56126 · 25 Feb 2014

How many, if any stations does SET land have that features everyday use of stations that have trains over length BOOKED to call? Southern and SWT have literally hundreds of "calls" every day of the week at various locations, all perfectly safe and in most locations the rear doors CANNOT open as the GPS signal picked up by the train kicks in the Selected door operation (various types on various units) that need and Emergency Door Release by the crew to over ride (as happens sometimes if the GPS is not functioning correctly).

Mistakes DO happen and these are investigated thoroughly when they are reported, it is worth bearing in mind the on train data recorder is always running in the back ground and means that crews are more likely to report genuine mistakes than when stock was not fitted.

user15681 · 25 Feb 2014

grid56126 said:
How many, if any stations does SET land have that features everyday use of stations that have trains over length BOOKED to call? Southern and SWT have literally hundreds of "calls" every day of the week at various locations, all perfectly safe and in most locations the rear doors CANNOT open as the GPS signal picked up by the train kicks in the Selected door operation (various types on various units) that need and Emergency Door Release by the crew to over ride (as happens sometimes if the GPS is not functioning correctly).

Mistakes DO happen and these are investigated thoroughly when they are reported, it is worth bearing in mind the on train data recorder is always running in the back ground and means that crews are more likely to report genuine mistakes than when stock was not fitted.

There are one or two regular. The one that springs to mind is Rochester, which is an 11 car platform. There are daily 12 car services in the peaks, which rely on GPS SDO, as you say, although these services do not use the DOO monitors as they have guards.

As far as I'm aware, all units (465/466/376) operating on SE DOO services do not have SDO.

In terms of this thread in general, it is hard to comment on what could have happened without knowing more, although I do not wish for the OP to share details publicly on this thread. There could be a different explanation depending on station, stock, etc.

It would be wrong, though, just to assume this is entirely the fault of the driver.

AndyNLondon · 25 Feb 2014

hairyhandedfool said:
Thameslink even gave out laminated A5 size cards to drivers, with a '4' on one side and '8' on the other, to act as a reminder of how long their train is.

Simple, effective (presumably), and difficult to break - what's not to like?

poshfan · 25 Feb 2014

At my local station, Stamford, back in pre-nanny state days, when passengers opened and closed doors themselves, it was not uncommon for some coaches to not be at the platform when the train stopped. Passengers would be warned in advance that they must leave the train by the front x coaches or whatever, and then trusted to do so. Sometimes if the train was packed, it would stop once then move up a bit and stop again with the rear coaches now at the platform.

reb0118 · 25 Feb 2014

Carlisle said:
I can recall travelling on slam door trains into Waterloo in the morning peak of the early 90s and I think then it was standard procedure for the guard to have to dispatch the train in the normal way if we were held at any signals with any part of the train on station platforms we were not booked to stop at like Vauxhall &c I'm sure others on here can say if this is right and explain a lot better

Correct.

BestWestern · 25 Feb 2014

dannypye9999:1719131 said:
So you think its acceptable to let the driver off and sit around waiting for that potential serious incident before we do anything?

Oh for heaven's sake, don't be so alarmist! If a driver - assuming he did indeed make the alleged mistake in this instance - was plodding about messing up his door release every day of the week, he is likely to be noticed rather quickly. If, on the other hand, it was an isolated incident which happened just the once for whatever reason, and there were no further consequences resulting from it, then there is little to be gained from starting the paper trail. If you mess something up as traincrew, the valuable lesson is almost always learned immediately in your mind, rarely after two weeks off track and a bollocking.

It is well established among DOO Drivers that this sort of thing happens pretty frequently where there is no technology in place to prevent it. Anybody can have a 'blip', and moreso if you load a Driver with extra duties which can be more safely carried out by somebody else who is in a better position to observe or avoid the error (that would be the Guard). In terms of DOO specifically, the greater potential for human error which is presented by one human doing many things, is a risk the powers have chosen to take. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the management of TOCs running DOO know very well that this sort of thing happens, and that the reported incidents aren't the full picture.

RailwayDan · 25 Feb 2014

Interesting replies.

The doors definitely did open off platform. I exited on to the top end of the ramp that descends onto the track, so a much bigger gap than usual. I looked further down the train after alighting and thankfully no-one had jumped down on to the track. (No time to alert driver as the train dwelled the normal amount of time - short of activating the passenger alarm perhaps...?)

HST's that stop at Market Harborough definitely unlock and you can open them off platform so its not unusual in itself. My original question was primarily whether the driver would definitely have been aware of this, and it looks like he will have.

Is this the kind of thing that would be picked up by a normal review of the onboard data?

PaxVobiscum · 25 Feb 2014

Many years ago, I was in a busy Class 303 Blue Train which had the wrong doors open at an island platform. My mother gave ME a row for not being careful enough and standing further away from the doors.

I still think she had the right attitude.

BestWestern · 25 Feb 2014

RailwayDan:1719397 said:
My original question was primarily whether the driver would definitely have been aware of this, and it looks like he will have.

Is this the kind of thing that would be picked up by a normal review of the onboard data?

The Driver may have realised after releasing, but he may not have. If he was viewing only internal cctv (have we established which type of train this was?) then it's possible he may not have noticed, though I would think it more likely he probably would have realised at some point. The data recorder would certainly show a full door release, as of course would any cctv at the station and, most probably, on the train.

RJ · 25 Feb 2014

It is definitely worth reporting directly to the Train Operating Company concerned and any relevant safety related bodies. Regardless of how things were in the past, in this day and age people have been conditioned to expect a platform to be present when they step off a train. A situation like this is an accident waiting to happen.

Prevention is better than cure. The incident is something that needs to be investigated to mitigate the chances of a repeat occurrence. I'm curious as to what happened on the day - if it was a problem with a safety system on the train, it should have been reported and taken out of service. If it was driver error, would a responsible operator turn a blind eye and say "carry on driver?"

I'd urge the OP to contact Southeastern and ensure they are aware of what happened, sooner rather than later.

BestWestern · 25 Feb 2014

RJ:1719451 said:
Prevention is better than cure. The incident is something that needs to be investigated to mitigate the chances of a repeat occurrence. I'm curious as to what happened on the day - if it was a problem with a safety system on the train, it should have been reported and taken out of service. If it was driver error, would a responsible operator turn a blind eye and say "carry on driver?"

But prevention ceases to be an option the moment the incident happens?! The TOC will have the same regular cycle of training and briefing that all operators have, nobody just sits back and lets their crews get on with it. But incidents will still occur, as they do with SPADs, TPWS interventions, etc etc. You'll never prevent everything, it just isn't possible. There is, however, now a firmly rooted culture of fear across the industry, with most crew dreading having some kind of momentary lapse and the sh*tstorm which follows - strangely it doesn't stop the next person from going out and making a similar honest mistake though...

As I said previously, the chap in question will have been suitably clenched for the rest of his shift if indeed he did make a faux pas. There is little to now be gained from denting his career I would suggest.

ModernRailways · 25 Feb 2014

If OP really doesn't want to report the specific train to SouthEastern, then couldn't they just make them aware and say 'I was onboard one your services today where the rear doors were opened and there was no platform below.' or words to that affect, mention the station but don't say anything else. If SouthEastern really care then they will look back through the CCTV to find the offending service and then take it from there.

I think the main question that needs answered though is that of Is this the same train and length as normal or was it a different train or different length to normal?

the sniper · 25 Feb 2014

RJ said:
I'd urge the OP to contact Southeastern and ensure they are aware of what happened, sooner rather than later.

What would they get out of going out of their way to report it? Other than a warm glow inside from the idea that they might have screwed someone over?

Personally I'm indifferent as to what the OP does, the driver may have opened themselves up to being reported by making a mistake, but I can't see why you'd be so keen to strongly encourage the OP to potentially drop a (fellow?) railwaymen in the crap...

Doors opened with carriages off the platform

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