Railway lines can create bad first impressions

anti-pacer · 12 Mar 2014

I have just caught a train from Leeds to Bradford Forster Square, and heard someone with a Southern accent say to her travelling companion, "Oh my god, look at the state of this place, rubbish everywhere"!

She wasn't wrong, it was a cesspit of filth. Cans, bottles, plastic, paper, cardboard, you name it, up embankments, next to the track. Lots of the stuff!

I got talking to her and it turns out she was up here on business and it was her first time in Yorkshire. She asked if it was all like this, so I reassured her that indeed it was and she was about to enter an utter cr*phole of a city.

That said, especially up here our railways are filthy and I have yet to see Notwork Rail cleaning any of this up. Some of the trackside litter must be left by railway contractors too, so why are they allowed to get away with it?

We need a massive clean up of our railways and soon, and I will be emailing the powers that be.

Railways, whilst vital, can create negative first impressions of places. Yes OK Bradford is a dump, but this doesn't help.

RailUK Forums

MyFriendMary · 12 Mar 2014

Least she got a warning when turning up

But, seriously, yeah some spots are pretty naff and one can only assume that, while it is on the to-do list for Network Rail, it doesn't feature highly due to more important things to be seen to first.

Greenback · 12 Mar 2014

The embankment at the end of my street is disgusting. Although there is a high fence, someone has managed to get an Asda shopping trolley over it.

But it is the great general public who largely make this mess (contractor detritus aside) and I would bet the majority of them don't use the trains. As soon as a bit of mess is cleaned up, no doubt it will be replaced by the same idiot people that created the initial mess.

Personally, I don't see that spending aload of extra money cleaning tracksides up will do any good at all

YorkshireBear · 12 Mar 2014

And the cuttings and embankments down south are spotless?

cuccir · 12 Mar 2014

Greenback said:
The embankment at the end of my street is disgusting. Although there is a high fence, someone has managed to get an Asda shopping trolley over it.

But it is the great general public who largely make this mess (contractor detritus aside) and I would bet the majority of them don't use the trains. As soon as a bit of mess is cleaned up, no doubt it will be replaced by the same idiot people that created the initial mess.

Personally, I don't see that spending aload of extra money cleaning tracksides up will do any good at all

Broken Windows Theory and other similar ideas would suggest otherwise!

This should of course be a joint responsibility of local authorities and land-owners. Much of the litter on rail land doesn't come from rail use, and can often be blown in by wind rather than deposited directly.

gordonthemoron · 12 Mar 2014

YorkshireBear said:
And the cuttings and embankments down south are spotless?

and the lines around Berlin are pretty bad too (but so is Marzahn)

callum112233 · 12 Mar 2014

YorkshireBear said:
And the cuttings and embankments down south are spotless?

Of course. I hear the queen walks her corgi's along various embankments in London :lol:

anti-pacer · 12 Mar 2014

YorkshireBear said:
And the cuttings and embankments down south are spotless?

In comparison to West Yorkshire, yes!

petersi · 12 Mar 2014

YorkshireBear said:
And the cuttings and embankments down south are spotless?

No but I think you notice it more when you visit some where.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

YorkshireBear · 12 Mar 2014

petersi said:
No but I think you notice it more when you visit some where.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Probably explains why i think the lines down south are covered in litter then!

SPADTrap · 12 Mar 2014

YorkshireBear said:
And the cuttings and embankments down south are spotless?

Far from it

RichmondCommu · 12 Mar 2014

anti-pacer said:
I got talking to her and it turns out she was up here on business and it was her first time in Yorkshire. She asked if it was all like this, so I reassured her that indeed it was and she was about to enter an utter cr*phole of a city.

That was helpful! Well done! As a Londoner I would have to say that some routes down here are just as bad.

Darandio · 12 Mar 2014

anti-pacer said:
She asked if it was all like this, so I reassured her that indeed it was and she was about to enter an utter cr*phole of a city.

I hereby would like to put you forward for this vacancy. :lol:

455driver · 12 Mar 2014

anti-pacer said:
In comparison to West Yorkshire, yes!

Another crusade! :roll:

Does your bum hurt from all the time in the saddle?
I bet your horse is knackered! :lol:

The problem is 95% the responsibility of the railways neighbours who throww all their rubbish over the fences rather than take it down th etip.
How much money do you think the railways should spend on cleaning up this rubbish because as soon as it is cleaned up more rubbish would replace it.
Unfortunately the legislation to prosecute these people is so full of holes as to be next to useless.

Have you got any workable and affordable solutions to fix the problem once and for all?

Oh I think it looks a mess as well and would rather it was clean, but then I would rather the embankments were kept in good order with reference to trees and bushes as well!

Darandio · 12 Mar 2014

455driver said:
Have you got any workable and affordable solutions to fix the problem once and for all?

Wasn't the last solution to round up the unemployed and make them clean everything?

hock:

cjmillsnun · 12 Mar 2014

Darandio said:
Wasn't the last solution to round up the unemployed and make them clean everything? hock:

I think the cost of putting them through PTS would be prohibitive.

anti-pacer · 12 Mar 2014

455driver said:
Another crusade! :roll:

Does your bum hurt from all the time in the saddle?
I bet your horse is knackered!

The problem is 95% the responsibility of the railways neighbours who throww all their rubbish over the fences rather than take it down th etip.
How much money do you think the railways should spend on cleaning up this rubbish because as soon as it is cleaned up more rubbish would replace it.
Unfortunately the legislation to prosecute these people is so full of holes as to be next to useless.

Have you got any workable and affordable solutions to fix the problem once and for all?

Oh I think it looks a mess as well and would rather it was clean, but then I would rather the embankments were kept in good order with reference to trees and bushes as well!

I agree it's neighbours of the railways that cause the problems and I'm not sure what the solution is as proving it will be a logical nightmare. I suppose in hotspots, using CCTV to catch offenders and heavily prosecuting them would help. Like you say though 455, red tape and all that.

Maybe some literature posted out to these neighbours warning them that they face prosecution if they litter the railway, in areas where there's evidence of this. Just a standard letter reminding them of why they shouldn't do it etc, etc.
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RichmondCommu said:
That was helpful! Well done! As a Londoner I would have to say that some routes down here are just as bad.

As a Bradfordian by birth, and one who lives 13 miles from the place I feel more than entitled to an opinion on the decline of a once reasonably decent city that I have watched go to the dogs. She'd have seen for herself on leaving the station anyway, it's clearly visible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Darandio said:
I hereby would like to put you forward for this vacancy.

Doesn't pay enough and I couldn't sleep at night, lying to tourists!

SS4 · 12 Mar 2014

cjmillsnun said:
I think the cost of putting them through PTS would be prohibitive.

Well if they were to die on the job it'd reduce the unemployment figures (sarcasm of course but not to your post mind)

anti-pacer · 12 Mar 2014

Darandio said:
Wasn't the last solution to round up the unemployed and make them clean everything? hock:

I still stand by that for the "jobseekers" who clearly aren't "job seeking".

I'd rather that than sanction them into even more poverty. Also for people who have NEVER worked, it would teach them some skills.

Also, I'm presuming you've never worked in "welfare to work", because trust me, if you had, you'd probably echo this view rather than resent it.

455driver · 12 Mar 2014

Darandio said:
Wasn't the last solution to round up the unemployed and make them clean everything? hock:

Ah yes thats it, thank you for reminding me! :lol:

The problems the railway have is proving who threw it over the fence even though it is obvious from where the (very big) rubbish is, IE just over their back fence onto the railways land.

Even though it is plainly obvious where it has come from it isnt proof and wont stand up in a court of law so the railways have to put up with it.

Darren R · 12 Mar 2014

There is nothing unique to Bradford about this - it's not even unique to the UK. Have you ever been to Paris on Eurostar? Paris is hardly a city one would describe as a s***hole but arriving by train you would be forgiven for thinking otherwise. I have often said that if you want to get the worst possible impression of any city arrive there by train.

The visitor from London mentioned in the OP probably only noticed because she was just that - a visitor. Her usual commuting route into London (or wherever) will be just as bad. She just doesn't notice.

And can we please stop assuming that railway rubbish has come from the nearest house. I live just feet away from a litter- and rubbish-strewn railway line. NONE OF IT IS MINE! I have never thrown anything on the line in my life, and if a bill for the clean-up arrived from Network Rail arrived - or if they just collected it and dumped it on my land I would not be very happy!

anti-pacer · 12 Mar 2014

455driver said:
Another crusade! :roll:

Does your bum hurt from all the time in the saddle?
I bet your horse is knackered!

I've seen posts on here recently about...

E-cigarettes
Rude passengers
Demise of services

Why do you not consider these "crusades"? It just seems when I mention the word "litter", I'm all of a sudden "on one"!

Maybe I am, but I'll make no apologies for wanting to live in a clean country. We all have our "crusades", and I've read several of yours 455!

Darandio · 12 Mar 2014

anti-pacer said:
I still stand by that for the "jobseekers" who clearly aren't "job seeking".

It's not as clear cut as that though. Those who clearly aren't jobseeking should find the current penalties sufficient. Four weeks without a penny is quite a strong kick up the backside and many don't realise how much their life can fall apart until it happens to them.

anti-pacer said:
Also, I'm presuming you've never worked in "welfare to work", because trust me, if you had, you'd probably echo this view rather than resent it.

Do you know what? Yes I have and no, I wouldn't echo the view.

The majority of issues related to jobsearch activity are down to nothing more than motivation. Carting busloads of jobseekers off to clear up rubbish does nothing whatsoever for motivation, it's not really any different to the 'work trials' system which has been less than successful, has been abused by employers and has been nothing more than a way to manipulate numbers.

anti-pacer · 12 Mar 2014

455driver said:
Ah yes thats it, thank you for reminding me!

The problems the railway have is proving who threw it over the fence even though it is obvious from where the (very big) rubbish is, IE just over their back fence onto the railways land.

Even though it is plainly obvious where it has come from it isnt proof and wont stand up in a court of law so the railways have to put up with it.

I agree it would be frought with difficulties.

One solution.... you know them long term unemployed people....? :lol:

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Darandio said:
It's not as clear cut as that though. Those who clearly aren't jobseeking should find the current penalties sufficient. Four weeks without a penny is quite a strong kick up the backside and many don't realise how much their life can fall apart until it happens to them.

Do you know what? Yes I have and no, I wouldn't echo the view.

The majority of issues related to jobsearch activity are down to nothing more than motivation. Carting busloads of jobseekers off to clear up rubbish does nothing whatsoever for motivation, it's not really any different to the 'work trials' system which has been less than successful, has been abused by employers and has been nothing more than a way to manipulate numbers.

I certainly agree on the "Work Trial" abuse of the system, but my idea (and I don't want to go off subject discussing it again) was for the following;

Unemployed over 12 months, with little evidence of job searching
Not complying with the Work Programme
Instead of sanctioning

There's pro's and cons to this in my view, although I won't be the last to suggest such an idea.

daccer · 12 Mar 2014

Couple of quick points - the railway is an asset with a value and until recently was being used to balance NR enormous debt on its balance sheet. NR don't seem to treat it much like an asset. They have a budget of many billions for the next control period - could not a tiny fraction not be put aside for rubbish and vegetation clearance and perhaps more importantly clearing their own residual materials from the track. The Midland Main line near Bedford seems to be a linear storage unit for old track and materials.

London Underground seem to have taken a different stance on the issues of graffiti and rubbish etc. They have obviously made a concerted effort to face the problems and doing recent trip I was genuinely impressed by the state of their above ground linesides.

One last thing - we seem to see OHLE problems occur fairly regular due to bags etc fouling the wires or pantographs - I am not sure what the cost of these disruptions are but it might cover a bit of litter picking. You don't see crap piled up around airport runways and roads when completed don't seem to have discarded or superfluous materials just abandoned, why are the railways any different?

anti-pacer · 12 Mar 2014

Darren R said:
There is nothing unique to Bradford about this - it's not even unique to the UK.

From my travels, West Yorkshire seems to be worse than other areas. Not saying it's unique to here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Darren R said:
And can we please stop assuming that railway rubbish has come from the nearest house. I live just feet away from a litter- and rubbish-strewn railway line. NONE OF IT IS MINE! I have never thrown anything on the line in my life, and if a bill for the clean-up arrived from Network Rail arrived - or if they just collected it and dumped it on my land I would not be very happy!

Glad to hear it, and it was never suggested you did.

Bantamzen · 12 Mar 2014

anti-pacer said:
As a Bradfordian by birth, and one who lives 13 miles from the place I feel more than entitled to an opinion on the decline of a once reasonably decent city that I have watched go to the dogs. She'd have seen for herself on leaving the station anyway, it's clearly visible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Doesn't pay enough and I couldn't sleep at night, lying to tourists!

As a Bradfordian still living & working here, and one that travels up & down on the Baildon - Bradford FS route everyday I'd say that the approach to FS is no worse than the approaches to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, London ad nausem. It wasn't too long ago that there was an clean up along at least part of the route, and you also have to remember that we've recently had some pretty bad weather with high winds so quite a bit of this could be left over from that.

And as you are still local you'll realise that things are just starting to turn for Bradford. The Westfield centre is finally underway, other builds are being mooted & the slow moving council has finally realised that they have to encourage new businesses into the centre so are relaxing the planning rules for change of business use for city centre properties. So things are moving in the right direction, albeit a bit slowly.

anti-pacer · 12 Mar 2014

Bantamzen said:
As a Bradfordian still living & working here, and one that travels up & down on the Baildon - Bradford FS route everyday I'd say that the approach to FS is no worse than the approaches to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, London ad nausem. It wasn't too long ago that there was an clean up along at least part of the route, and you also have to remember that we've recently had some pretty bad weather with high winds so quite a bit of this could be left over from that.

And as you are still local you'll realise that things are just starting to turn for Bradford. The Westfield centre is finally underway, other builds are being mooted & the slow moving council has finally realised that they have to encourage new businesses into the centre so are relaxing the planning rules for change of business use for city centre properties. So things are moving in the right direction, albeit a bit slowly.

I would seriously disagree that the approaches to Leeds are as bad as Forster Square. The retail park next to Forster Square is a big player in this and the businesses on there should know better. Leeds isn't perfect, granted, but it's not even on the same page as Forster Square, mainly due to lack of embankments on its approaches.

Westfield I hope will reverse Bradford's fortunes, but let's so. I certainly want to see Bradford thrive again, and watching it decline so badly over the years has been saddening.

341o2 · 12 Mar 2014

treating any piece of land including beaches, the coutryside, even areas such as the New Forest as a cross between a tip and a cesspit is not unique to the railways. The worst has to be dog poo bags where the poo is picked up...and the bag tossed over a convenient fence or into bushes (I'm a dog owner, by the way)

Try this....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM-yIBVEgF4

Jones · 12 Mar 2014

Christ man you can't get anything done with common sense on the rail network.

I've learnt that in my wasted rail thread.

To get anyone to clean the embankments and cuttings would need more people with acronyms after their names to get anything done.

(tongue in cheek)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

anti-pacer said:
One solution.... you know them long term unemployed people....?

Lol indeed.

I will have been on the dole a year in April and I'm very active in job hunting. I have about 30 live applications with rail companies alone!

So My best option to work on the rails is to stay on the dole?

Railway lines can create bad first impressions

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