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Cambrian hourly service consultation

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merlodlliw

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so how likely is it that these extra cambrian services will be implemented? What is the general consensus from people? Much hope?

Also, when do you think that the service will realistically begin? Dec 14 or May 15?

We await the Ministers announcement,nothing will occur until ATW are guaranteed funding to run the extra services.
I am sure the services will commence at some time, up to now the only thing the Minister has mentioned, is extending the Friday only evening service from Barmouth to Pwllheli, but that's on the coast. North Wales railway services are being discussed next Wednesday in the Senedd , so we might hear something about the Cambrian from the Minister.
 
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berneyarms

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For now but surely at some point they will have to I.m told that ORR have been contacted about trains continually leaving Caersws early.

I don't think you could run the hourly service without the improved running times being reflected in the schedule - it's a pre-requisite I would suggest.

I imagine they're holding off so they can have a little extra fanfare when the extra services are hopefully launched.
 

The Planner

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For now but surely at some point they will have to I.m told that ORR have been contacted about trains continually leaving Caersws early.

I dont disagree, someone just needs to smack some heads together and tell ATW and NR to sort it out however it suits both to leave it as it is currently.
 

Gareth Marston

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Is this something to do with charter trains & running with a class 97(ex 37) Loco providing ertms control?

No - its more of an idea that's come from outside the railways about tapping the tourist trade more in the Summer months. one in 8 of all bed spaces in Wales lie along the Cambrain - mainly in caravan sites vast bulk drive in but idea is to get them doing rail stuff so they don't clog road sup too badly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I dont disagree, someone just needs to smack some heads together and tell ATW and NR to sort it out however it suits both to leave it as it is currently.

Caersws station looking good today - flower beds well tended from community council and notice up that work is underway turning station buildings into a Boutique Hotel, Cafe and base for Adventure Holidays.
 

junglejames

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Excuse the question, as i havent been keeping fully up to date on this subject, but where is the extra rolling stock coming from for the hourly service?
Last i heard ATW would need extra stock to run this. One of the reasons for it taking so long i thought.
 
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Excuse the question, as i havent been keeping fully up to date on this subject, but where is the extra rolling stock coming from for the hourly service?
Last i heard ATW would need extra stock to run this. One of the reasons for it taking so long i thought.

I just dont understand why they cant fit a couple of class 150s or 153s or even 175s with ERMTS? Is it more complex than this?
 

merlodlliw

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I just dont understand why they cant fit a couple of class 150s or 153s or even 175s with ERMTS? Is it more complex than this?

Yes very complex,175s were never intended for Rural lines,the system is 175s are based at Chester for everything except diesel & Cleaning.You ERTMS the lot or forget it.If they fit the NR rules on track clearance.

Question is why so many 158s in North Wales on the morning Manchester run,simple answer in my opinion, shortage of stock to cater with demand West/East/East/west etc replace with what?
 
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Llanigraham

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Caersws station looking good today - flower beds well tended from community council and notice up that work is underway turning station buildings into a Boutique Hotel, Cafe and base for Adventure Holidays.

Also plans for a small museum about the station.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I just dont understand why they cant fit a couple of class 150s or 153s or even 175s with ERMTS? Is it more complex than this?

ETCS (the bit of ERTMS in the cab) was a major task for the Cambrian project (paid for by NR's development arm, so free to ATW).
It was one of the troublesome areas - small 158 cab, old electrics and control systems etc).
158s were never designed for such fitment.
You would have similar difficulties with 150/153s with their small cabs, and there is no fairy godmother to pay for it.

175s, as a modern European train design, should be easier, but again there is no policy to fit them yet.
They will need to be fitted once ERTMS is rolled out further, but that might be another decade or so.
And you would have to do the whole fleet.
Network Rail is supposed to pay for the "first in class" fitment and testing of ETCS for each type of train, with the TOCs paying for roll out across the class.
They are still wrestling with what that means on the ECML South and GW main lines, the first to be fitted around 2020.
So the Cambrian is stuck in the future, so to speak.

I don't think the problem is shortage of ETCS-fitted 158s, it's the lack of any other stock to back-fill other services to allow more of the 158 fleet to stay on the Cambrian.
 

Rhydgaled

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You are forgetting however that the running times between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth are yet to be accelerated to reflect the benefits of ERTMS,

...

It is therefore likely, that westbound trains could leave Shrewsbury at xx:30 (3 minutes later than currently), cross eastbound trains east of Fron, and at Talerddig and Dovey Junction, and arrive at Aberystwyth at xx:21 or so.

The return trains could leave Aberystwyth at xx:30 (9 minute turnaround) and arrive into Shrewsbury at xx:23, allowing a 7 minute turnaround if going back to Aberystwyth, and 10 minutes before going onto Birmingham.
9 minutes at Aberystwyth is one less than currently (arrive xx:20, depart xx:30). Agreed you might squeese a 7min turn-round at Shrewsbury thanks to ERTMS and the associated track improvments, but is 7 at one end and 9 at the other acceptably robust for a journey of almost 2hrs with several oncoming trains to pass at passing loops?

Excuse the question, as i havent been keeping fully up to date on this subject, but where is the extra rolling stock coming from for the hourly service?

Last i heard ATW would need extra stock to run this. One of the reasons for it taking so long i thought.
Yes, extra stock would need to be allocated to the Cambrian route. However, although I have been following this topic for some time, I've not noticed anything that says where that extra stock is comming from. There's supposedly an 'implementation group' report which I am awaiting publication of in the hope it will answer the question.

I just dont understand why they cant fit a couple of class 150s or 153s or even 175s with ERMTS? Is it more complex than this?
It's a big expensive job. It's not just a screen in the cab, there are luggage-rack-sized cabinents full of electronics and I think if the driver ingores the signalling instructions it is also cabable of applying the brakes and stopping the train. The business case for fitment almost certainly requires a full fleet.

Yes very complex,175s were never intended for Rural lines
What were they intended for? Apart from the portion working to the coast and need for longer formations, I'd say they would be quite suitable for the Cambrian main line (because of the portion working though, 158s were the better choice for the Cambrian). Like the 158s, 175s a regional express stock, and regional express services cover some rural areas like the Cambrian (main line) and north Pembrokeshire (Fishguard boat train).

Question is why so many 158s in North Wales on the morning Manchester run,simple answer in my opinion, shortage of stock to cater with demand West/East/East/west etc replace with what?
I don't think the problem is shortage of ETCS-fitted 158s, it's the lack of any other stock to back-fill other services to allow more of the 158 fleet to stay on the Cambrian.
You've both hit the nail right on the head. There are more than enough ATW class 158s in north Wales (on some Manchester-Llandudno/Holyhead workings and the Chester - Holyhead leg of Birmingham services) to provide the rolling stock needed to run the enhanced Cambrian service. However, you need to find some other rolling stock to run those services so the 158s currently used can move to the Cambrian. I hope the solution isn't more suburban stock on long-distance and/or regional express workings.
 

merlodlliw

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The 175s were ordered by North Western Trains for North Wales main line and North West England, three car 175 is not sufficient now for morning Chester to Manchester runs, hence 4 car 158s now packed.

I have been told the Minister has cancelled the Scenic Cambrian Trial ,due to the recent storm damage.

The potential for the scenic tour remains under consideration.
 
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berneyarms

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9 minutes at Aberystwyth is one less than currently (arrive xx:20, depart xx:30). Agreed you might squeese a 7min turn-round at Shrewsbury thanks to ERTMS and the associated track improvments, but is 7 at one end and 9 at the other acceptably robust for a journey of almost 2hrs with several oncoming trains to pass at passing loops?

Well trains actually currently are scheduled per the WTT to arrive at Aberystwyth at xx:23 and return at xx:30 (7 minute turnaround), and then proceed from Shrewsbury to Birmingham after waiting 7 minutes there, which is in effect a new journey.

So I don't see why it can be done for the new services?
 

The Planner

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Probably done as the timetable is as slack as it is, it isn't technically compliant as a 7 minute turnaround is only for Mach starters, the further afield value was never agreed but it should be nearer the 10 minute mark. There is no need for the non looped train to show a dwell at Talerddig either as nothing happens there anymore, the original idea was for the down train to fly through, not as it is now.
 

Gareth Marston

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Probably done as the timetable is as slack as it is, it isn't technically compliant as a 7 minute turnaround is only for Mach starters, the further afield value was never agreed but it should be nearer the 10 minute mark. There is no need for the non looped train to show a dwell at Talerddig either as nothing happens there anymore, the original idea was for the down train to fly through, not as it is now.

Works either way at Talerddig first in looped last there through quick on the Down side.
 

krus_aragon

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Dismissing them as the "save Mona Airport & Wagair flights brigade" is really quite disrespectful, and clearly deliberately so: you can almost taste the contempt dripping from the terms you choose to use for Anglesey Airport and Citywing.

Furthermore, "Mona Airport" suggests RAF Mona, several miles from Valley.
 

jones_bangor

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The 175s were ordered by North Western Trains for North Wales main line and North West England, three car 175 is not sufficient now for morning Chester to Manchester runs, hence 4 car 158s now packed.
.

This does leave one wondering where the extra stock for Cambrian hourly will come from.

I suppose ATW will demand cash to hire in some Mk2's & 67s for Chester- Manchester. The ex-Gerald Mk2s were stabled at Crewe a couple of weeks ago....
 

Rhydgaled

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I have been told the Minister has cancelled the Scenic Cambrian Trial ,due to the recent storm damage.
Would have thought that would actually make things easier, since the line being closed at the north end probably is saving a unit or two at the moment.

Well trains actually currently are scheduled per the WTT to arrive at Aberystwyth at xx:23 and return at xx:30 (7 minute turnaround), and then proceed from Shrewsbury to Birmingham after waiting 7 minutes there, which is in effect a new journey.
That's odd, they always used to be timetabled to arrive Aberystwyth at xx:20 (WTT, the general public see xx:25).
 

merlodlliw

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well where is this announcement!?

If you are referring to the Scenic train,it was an intranet message,sent to stakeholders, I suggest you contact Sarpa,

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This does leave one wondering where the extra stock for Cambrian hourly will come from.

I suppose ATW will demand cash to hire in some Mk2's & 67s for Chester- Manchester. The ex-Gerald Mk2s were stabled at Crewe a couple of weeks ago....

The ex ATW Mark 2s have been stabled at Crewe for a few months,saw them there in February,forget who bought them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Furthermore, "Mona Airport" suggests RAF Mona, several miles from Valley.

this may help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglesey_Airport
 
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merlodlliw

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Indeed you are correct, I was referring to the annual subsidy WG contribute to run the Airport for the two daily flights,plus the subsidy paid to the airline,heres a link on numbers using the service, http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/...it-was-introduced-assembly-committee-hears-2/[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Has the extra Cambrian trains will be funded by Welsh Governments revenue account,plus cuts everywhere else, the money will have to come from some other areas, I am sure a similar review of the Welsh Goverments funded subsidy to the Premier Rail Service is taking place.
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The Chairman of the local RUG suggests the survey was devised as a fob off as Officials expected a mere few hundred responses that could be dismissed but in reality there were several thousand and it's caught them out.

I would agree the numbers have caught them out,
 
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I will be using the 0927 shrewsbury - aber on saturday. Will this be x1 158, x2 158 or even 3 158s? And how busy is this service likely to be?
 
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