merlodlliw
Established Member
Yes, that's exactly what I said! All you're doing is restating it in a different order! :roll:
AGAIN WITH RESPECT, I dont see how I restated it,and thanks for the rolling eyes.
Yes, that's exactly what I said! All you're doing is restating it in a different order! :roll:
And there you are again with your partial figures that only count journeys between specific local authority areas in Wales. Incomplete figures mean nothing - and you know they are incomplete!What other "across Chester" flows are you talking about of any significance? What is this strong market? Please tell us as i struggle to think what you could be referring to. Perhaps you mean Ynys Mon UA to Wrexham UA?
There's no need to shout. And I suspect that was meant with absolutely no respect whatsoever.AGAIN WITH RESPECT
Let's look again shall we?I dont see how I restated it,and thanks for the rolling eyes.
So as 78% of journey opportunities require only one change, you'd be pretty unlucky to have to change twice.
I said that you'd have to be unlucky if you had to change twice. And you said the same. So you restated that.That still leaves on your % 22% having to change twice, so unlucky if you are one of them.
There's no need to shout. And I suspect that was meant with absolutely no respect whatsoever.
respect, that's your presupposition, thanks for the lesson.
Bob
Happy to helpthanks for the lesson.
Major developments (like HS2) inevitably lead to a major recasting of services - look at HS1 for an example. So I don't think we need to worry too much right now about what may happen in 13-15 years time.3. If Creweis to be developed as a HS2 hub then a double change (i.e. at Chester and Crewe) will be unattractive.
I seem to have sparked something here ...
The point I was making was:
1. Journeys from the likes of Stoke/ Stafford/ Derby to North Wales require changes at Crewe and Chester through much of the day;
2. This didn't used to be the case in the past when there were through trains from Crewe through much of the day;
3. If Creweis to be developed as a HS2 hub then a double change (i.e. at Chester and Crewe) will be unattractive.
I have mentioned a few times on threads the Direct Derby/Llandudno DMU via Crewe "The Dragon Rapide", which ran Mon/Sat.
On another item, the 44% figure quoted North/South, a colleague has informed me how a researcher could have perhaps mistakenly included flows on other lines serving North/South.
However Aled Roberts the AM who presented "Staying On Track" at the Senedd on April 2nd is in Newport all weekend at a Party Conference with his staff plus The Welsh Assembly closed for a month for the Easter Break on April 3rd, I will inform everyone when I get the AMs response,personally after reading the content again,it looks in my opinion very much like a typo.
Bob
Yet it's been pointed out to you on so many occasions (and not just by me) that North Wales-South Wales services are used by many more people than just those travelling between North Wales and South Wales - being as the trains also serve Cheshire, Shropshire and Herefordshire.Those interested in the actual official figures for travel within Wales and therefore directly relevant to discussions around North Wales to South Wales trains can find the 2012 figures here on the Welsh Government website.
Of course they're incomplete - as they don't include journeys between Wales and England, or journeys wholly within England! A fact that you persistently and deliberately choose to ignore.I'm sure certain people will claim their incomplete despite showing travel from all 22 Welsh Unitary Authority's to the other 22.
Yet it's been pointed out to you on so many occasions (and not just by me) that North Wales-South Wales services are used by many more people than just those travelling between North Wales and South Wales - being as the trains also serve Cheshire, Shropshire and Herefordshire.
Of course they're incomplete - as they don't include journeys between Wales and England, or journeys wholly within England! A fact that you persistently and deliberately choose to ignore.
Of course I don't, as you well know they don't exist in the public domain. But incomplete figures are useless, as by definition they present a distorted view.Do you have any better figures then?
Yet it's been pointed out to you on so many occasions (and not just by me) that North Wales-South Wales services are used by many more people than just those travelling between North Wales and South Wales - being as the trains also serve Cheshire, Shropshire and Herefordshire.
Of course they're incomplete - as they don't include journeys between Wales and England, or journeys wholly within England! A fact that you persistently and deliberately choose to ignore.
Of course I don't, as you well know they don't exist in the public domain. But incomplete figures are useless, as by definition they present a distorted view.
By trying to claim that the figures showing travel between local authority areas in Wales represents an accurate picture of passengers flows on the North-South services is just daft. You might as well pick out journeys made by passengers wearing blue jackets - and claim that is representative of all passenger flows!
By trying to claim that the figures showing travel between local authority areas in Wales represents an accurate picture of passengers flows on the North-South services is just daft. You might as well pick out journeys made by passengers wearing blue jackets - and claim that is representative of all passenger flows!
Where on earth did you get that from? I didn't suggest or imply anything like that. Perhaps you should re-read what I actually wrote.Are you saying Welsh Government statistics are useless,out of interest.
Where on earth did you get that from? I didn't suggest or imply anything like that. Perhaps you should re-read what I actually wrote.
Statistics which only show travel between local authority areas in Wales do not represent an accurate picture of the total passenger numbers on the North Wales-South Wales railway services.
- They do not include journeys between Wales and England.
- They do not include journeys wholly within England - and North Wales-South Wales route also serves Cheshire, Shropshire and Herefordshire.
Surely that's not too hard to understand?
So you think it's "only my opinion" that the figures are an incomplete representation if usage of the North Wales-South Wales through trains? Despite the fact that the figures exclude all journeys starting or ending in England?As there are no other official figures,other than Welsh Governments,it has to be your opinion,I have read what you suggest,but it remains your opinion.
So you think it's "only my opinion" that the figures are an incomplete representation if usage of the North Wales-South Wales through trains? Despite the fact that the figures exclude all journeys starting or ending in England?
And those are the 'missing figures'. We can speculate on what they might be until the cows come home - but's that all it is... speculation.The crux of the intermediate traffic argument is that it significantly increases the ridership.
You see, the difficulty we have is that, while we, as Assembly Members, can be concerned with regard to the frequency and quality of journeys between Cardiff and Holyhead, *the reality is that only 44% of traffic in north-east Wales and in north Wales as a whole is actually using that north-south route (see amendment in bold below)* The vast majority of journeys, whether commuter or otherwise, are actually east-west. It is noticeable. Stand at the station in Chester, and you will see that the vast majority of people travelling from Holyhead, Llandudno Junction and Rhyl will disembark at Chester and link into other services, whether those are to Crewe or elsewhere.
*Actual figure refers to: between 2005 2010 there has been a 44% increase in in train travel journeys between Wrexham General and Cardiff Central*
And those are the 'missing figures'. We can speculate on what they might be until the cows come home - but's that all it is... speculation.
You prefer to misrepresent the published figures as being the full picture, when you know that they are not. Quite why you go to these lengths in order to abolish the through N-S rail service is a mystery to me - when the only way you will bring about change os through the ballot box, by changing WG transport policy.
Given that the actual figures have been discussed numerous times on this forum and are very low this could well be a typo. 4% sounds right and squares with "vast majority" doing east-west.
Is there a source for the correct figures, or is it based on anecdotes?
In any case, what's required is a decent mixed service to a variety of destinations.
Welsh Government statistics part of their website, a release in Nov 13 giving rail journeys within Wales.
Can we have a link?
I've had a good look in the past and have failed to find anything of much use.
And even when you find the stats, you'll still fail to find anything of much use...I've had a good look in the past and have failed to find anything of much use.