• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Rumour that Chiltern are going to lease class 68s to replace 67s (confirmed)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cherry_Picker

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
2,796
Location
Birmingham
Did the 67's ever run at 125 mph in revenue earning service as promised under Evergreen
1/2 ?

Where was this promised? I have genuinely never heard it before and I would be interested to see it.

For what it's worth, there is no 125 mph line speed anywhere between Marylebone and Birmingham, for any type of traction. It's 100 mph from Solihull to Hatton and from Aynho Park (8 miles or so north of Bicester) to Princes Risborough and again from just south of High Wycombe station to Wembley Stadium. Most of the rest is 85-95 mph save for the five mile stretches on approach to Marylebone and Moor Street where it's slower.

I can't see how a change in locomotives will result in slower journey times. In fact, I think all the loco hauled stuff is timed for 168s.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
Soooo, just for the sake of amusement suppose there are five locomotives. They need naming, what would you call each of them?

Chiltern Enterprise, Chiltern Campaigner, Chiltern Bulwark, Chiltern Glory ..... can you tell where this is going?

:D
 

RPM

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2009
Messages
1,466
Location
Buckinghamshire
Chiltern Enterprise, Chiltern Campaigner, Chiltern Bulwark, Chiltern Glory ..... can you tell where this is going?

:D

I like your thinking, perhaps not the specific choices though :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Where was this promised? I have genuinely never heard it before and I would be interested to see it.

For what it's worth, there is no 125 mph line speed anywhere between Marylebone and Birmingham, for any type of traction. It's 100 mph from Solihull to Hatton and from Aynho Park (8 miles or so north of Bicester) to Princes Risborough and again from just south of High Wycombe station to Wembley Stadium. Most of the rest is 85-95 mph save for the five mile stretches on approach to Marylebone and Moor Street where it's slower.

I can't see how a change in locomotives will result in slower journey times. In fact, I think all the loco hauled stuff is timed for 168s.

Definitely NEVER promised! 100 was a big improvement, but with all those local services to fit in 125 isn't realistic - it would eat up too much capacity.

The change to 68s should actually improve performance. Locos geared for 100 mph can accelerate better than ones geared for 125mph. It might actually allow for an extra coach to be added, without impacting on timings. (Platform extensions are in the pipeline....).
 

Old Hill Bank

Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
971
Location
Kidderminster
I like your thinking, perhaps not the specific choices though :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Definitely NEVER promised! 100 was a big improvement, but with all those local services to fit in 125 isn't realistic - it would eat up too much capacity.

The change to 68s should actually improve performance. Locos geared for 100 mph can accelerate better than ones geared for 125mph. It might actually allow for an extra coach to be added, without impacting on timings. (Platform extensions are in the pipeline....).

Quite right, more powerful locos geared for 100mph should give better performance on a 100mph railway but how can Chiltern lengthen them if the depots and stabling sites can not cope with them?
 

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
Getting back to the logistics of this, longer trains?
Stourbridge Depot with it's four roads will only take 8 vehicle formations in each and currently hosts three Silver Trains at DVT+6 x Mk3+Loco and two 4-car class 168s.
The two stabling sidings at Moor Street are of similar length.
How will longer trains work.

Wasnt aware of that. Just going by something i believe Chiltern mentioned.
 

Sunbird24

Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
391
Location
La Mont Ravana
Did the 67's ever run at 125 mph in revenue earning service as promised under Evergreen
1/2 ? . Seems as if we are now exchanging 125 mph max locos for 100 mph locos albeit with fuel savings. I thought the Class 170 DMU's were capable of 125 mph in theory.
No doubt the December 2014 timetable will reflect longer journey times.

The class 68 max speed is quoted as "160 km/h / 200 km/h (optional)". This equates to 100 mph / 125 mph (optional). Whether this option is built-in or not I do not know.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
6,538
Location
UK
The class 68 max speed is quoted as "160 km/h / 200 km/h (optional)". This equates to 100 mph / 125 mph (optional). Whether this option is built-in or not I do not know.

There is probably a 125mph version with a slightly different gearbox. (probably a very similar one to the 67's)
 

apk55

Member
Joined
7 Jul 2011
Messages
438
Location
Altrincham
A class 68 has more than double the maximum tractive effort of a class 67 (144kn to 318Kn) and has about 18% more power (2.368MW to 2.8MW).

Therefore it would be quicker off mark from stationary even with a heavier load. And with extra power it could easily haul an extra coach (possibly two) without compromising running speed .

Even if the class 68 were upgeared to operate at 125MPH they would still have more tractive effort than a class 67.

The motors used on the class 68 are 3 phase motors rather than the tradional DC commutator motors used on the class 67, so they should be much lighter and consequently kinder on the track
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Did the 67's ever run at 125 mph in revenue earning service as promised under Evergreen
1/2 ? . Seems as if we are now exchanging 125 mph max locos for 100 mph locos albeit with fuel savings. I thought the Class 170 DMU's were capable of 125 mph in theory.
No doubt the December 2014 timetable will reflect longer journey times.

I'm not sure they have ever run in service at 125mph anywhere.
Only Mk3/4 stock can exceed 110mph, which essentially means on the ECML only.
A lot of the Marylebone route is limited to 90-95 (eg Leamington-Aynho Jn) and nothing over 100.
If they can't take HST differentials then some speeds are lower than that.
I suspect the best speed they have achieved is 110mph on the odd occasions when WSMR trains were diverted from Wolverhampton to Wrexham via Crewe.

EDIT: In fact, as The Planner says, 110mph also occasionally on the WCML South.
On a daily basis, they might have reached 110mph between Stechford and Coventry on the WSMR run.
 
Last edited:

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
15,838
67s and Mk IIIs have dispensation to run at the higher differentials as mentioned along with HSTs south of Aynho. Pretty sure they ran at 110 south of Rugby too.
 

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
Or something that you thought may happen? :roll:

Please dont try and read my mind. It will very rarely work.
I thought i had seen it mentioned by Chiltern. If not, I apologise. Quite how it can be something i thought may happen, god knows, as I have no idea what the loadings are like on the whole. So your comment makes no sense. I can only think it may happen if i have an idea what the loads are like, or if I have information from high up in Chiltern. As neither are the case, there is zero chance I can be thinking as you seem to think I am.

I have suggested it as a possibility when mentioning the benefits of a 68 over a 67, as have other people (I assume others will be getting the same response from you?), but when I do suggest it, I always add 'if the need should arise'. However i NEVER 'think it may happen.

So thankyou kindly for your concern that I may have severely mistyped my post, but thankfully on this occasion I didnt. Thankyou again though.
 

Sunbird24

Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
391
Location
La Mont Ravana
68 is 100 max.
I agree the first 15 were ordered for 160 kmh max., however the 68 is a member of the Eurolight design, the original specification being 120 kmh for freight and 140 kmh for passenger, with an option for up to 200 kmh. This information is direct from Vossloh-España and can be found here: http://www.vossloh-espana.com/en/products/diesel-electric_locomotives/eurolight/eurolight.html
More information about the traction from ABB can be found here: http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot326.nsf/veritydisplay/bb45593b38a5983ec12577df004ebc72/$file/Railvolution03-10-Traction-package.pdf
Here are two more related items from the Railway Gazette:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ders-15-vossloh-eurolight-uk-locomotives.html
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...na-unveils-direct-rail-services-class-68.html
More related information, including the class 88 and South African orders, and relevant links, can be found here: http://mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000175&lang=en
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
The marketing blurb makes much of the "axle load below 20 t" design feature.
But the class 68 exceeds that by a fair margin.
It's also apparently designed for lightly-used cross-border lines.
That doesn't sound like Chiltern's operation to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vossloh_Eurolight#United_Kingdom_-_UKLight

The four-axle EuroLight was designed to have a low axle load for use on cross-border operations on non-electrified European secondary routes, enabling operators to bypass bottlenecks on main corridors
 

Sunbird24

Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
391
Location
La Mont Ravana
The marketing blurb makes much of the "axle load below 20 t" design feature.
But the class 68 exceeds that by a fair margin.
It's also apparently designed for lightly-used cross-border lines.
That doesn't sound like Chiltern's operation to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vossloh_Eurolight#United_Kingdom_-_UKLight

The original Eurolight design specification can be seen here; http://mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000174&lang=en
They are designed for the European loading gauge.
The UK class 68 requirement meant the loading gauge needed amending so the final result is a little over a metre longer, say about 4 feet, a bit lower in overall height and a larger fuel tank, an extra 1,000 litres. A 5% increase in length would add a similar %age in weight and the extra 1,000 litres of fuel is another ton. This increase in weight was obviously not considered a problem for their intended use in the UK which, to quote DRS, was to replace the aging, increasingly expensive and unreliable class 47s, or words to that effect.
For comparison the class 68 specifications are here: http://mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000175&lang=en
 

TDK

Established Member
Joined
19 Apr 2008
Messages
4,155
Location
Crewe
I'm not sure they have ever run in service at 125mph anywhere.
Only Mk3/4 stock can exceed 110mph, which essentially means on the ECML only.
A lot of the Marylebone route is limited to 90-95 (eg Leamington-Aynho Jn) and nothing over 100.
If they can't take HST differentials then some speeds are lower than that.
I suspect the best speed they have achieved is 110mph on the odd occasions when WSMR trains were diverted from Wolverhampton to Wrexham via Crewe.

EDIT: In fact, as The Planner says, 110mph also occasionally on the WCML South.
On a daily basis, they might have reached 110mph between Stechford and Coventry on the WSMR run.

FYI WSMR did get to 110 on the WCML only where permitted, quite a long run at 110, also between Crewe and Stafford but between Stechford and Coventry the enhanced speed of 110mph is MU only so WSMR were restricted to 100mph
 

Warbonnet

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2014
Messages
43
FYI WSMR did get to 110 on the WCML only where permitted, quite a long run at 110, also between Crewe and Stafford but between Stechford and Coventry the enhanced speed of 110mph is MU only so WSMR were restricted to 100mph

What dose 'WSMR' stand for again?
I feel I should know and probably once did but I cant remember and a google only brings up 'White Sands Missile Range' and im pretty sure its not that LOL.:lol:
 

RPM

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2009
Messages
1,466
Location
Buckinghamshire
What dose 'WSMR' stand for again?
I feel I should know and probably once did but I cant remember and a google only brings up 'White Sands Missile Range' and im pretty sure its not that LOL.:lol:

Wrexham Shropshire & Marylebone Railway, AKA Wrexham & Shropshire.
 

Class172

Established Member
Associate Staff
Quizmaster
Joined
20 Mar 2011
Messages
3,770
Location
West Country
What dose 'WSMR' stand for again?
I feel I should know and probably once did but I cant remember and a google only brings up 'White Sands Missile Range' and im pretty sure its not that LOL.:lol:

Wrexham Shropshire & Marylebone Railway, AKA Wrexham & Shropshire.

Which looked like this (perhaps a picture will jog the memory):

300px-A_First_Refurbished_Train_Launch.JPG
 

TDK

Established Member
Joined
19 Apr 2008
Messages
4,155
Location
Crewe
How can anyone who is a rail buff forget WSMR the best railway operating company in history phhhht :)
 

Sunbird24

Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
391
Location
La Mont Ravana
WSMR once stood for West Somerset Mineral Railway, which had a 1 in 4 incline three quarters of a mile long.
Now that name rang a bell so I checked my data and found that the WSMR re-opened in 1907 with Metropolitan Railway 4-4-0T No 37 of 1881. I have a photograph of it in my copy of "Steam on the Underground".
 

Warbonnet

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2014
Messages
43
How can anyone who is a rail buff forget WSMR the best railway operating company in history phhhht :)
To far away from me operationally I suppose :lol:
Ever since the demise of proper loco haulage and the advent of vomiters etc etc, me and rail travel // UK rail knowledge in general seem to have an even bigger sepperation over the past 15 years or so!
I see myself as an old timer now with little interest, like the ones who were about in the late 60's with the demise of steam. :lol:
Bring back the bloody 80's I say!:lol:
 

RobShipway

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
3,337
FYI WSMR did get to 110 on the WCML only where permitted, quite a long run at 110, also between Crewe and Stafford but between Stechford and Coventry the enhanced speed of 110mph is MU only so WSMR were restricted to 100mph

I thought that the Class 67's where able to do 110mph along the GWML?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top