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Could someone please clarify

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perniente

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I have a monthly pass from Kelvedon to Stratford. I also have a zone 2-3 oyster to get from Stratford to Bermondsey each day, or alternatively Mile End to Stratford as sometimes I run to/from work. Occassionally I need to go through zone 1 with work and so I have credit on my oyster. But this maybe once or twice a month and I always get off at stratford, or more usually am starting my journey in bermondsey to go to across london.

Two days ago I had to travel directly to go for a meeting near Liverpool St. This is the first time I have had to do this. So rather than get off a Stratford I continued to Liverpool St. I was sure I had credit on my oyster to cover the leg from Stratford to Liverpool St.

When I arrived at Liverpool St I couldnt get through the barriers and was sent to the ticket collectors (?). I explained and was expecting to be sold the single excess fare or top up my oyster to get through. Instead the man I was speaking to told me immediately that I had to pay a £20 penalty fare.

Unfortunately I decided to argue that this was unreasonable and asked why i couldnt be sold a ticket or top up and from there we went around in circles. He did tell me I should have touched in at Stratford and I would have known i had only £1.50 credit. (From my point of view there are 2 problems with this - first there are no oyster touch points on the platforms that my train comes through and even on the platforms with touch points they are really hard to find (an observation not a defence). Secondly, as i have a zone 2-3 oyster the card wouldnt have displayed my credit and would have assumed i was fine to travel as i was still in zone 3 for which i have a pass. Eventually after some fairly pointless arguing on my side he went to get his supervisor who took a statement.

I am fairly resigned to the fact that I was by the letter of the law wrong and my stubborness has made a mountain out of a molehill. I am willing to accept even that, crazy as i think it is, I should ultimately have to get off at stratford and touch in and also go to a machine (not just an oyster touch point) to check my credit before before continuing, or get on the tube as i could have topped up at liverpool st underground on arrival with no problem, or (as i have now done) registered online and checked my credit before leaving the house (dont get me started on whether i could have used 3G to check on the train!). I didnt have a ticket for stratford to liv st and despite what i thought I didnt have enough credit So I was in the wrong and pig-headed for thinking otherwise. I knew there were barriers at liverpool st so at no point did it enter my head i was going to get through without paying, and as i have said, i was expecting to use my oyster for that part of the journey. Although maybe there is something in this story that suggests it may seem i was trying not to pay?

To torture myself some more I just wanted to check if my original assumption i.e that i was expecting to either be able to pay an excess fare for the single journey when my oyster was found not to have credit (i now realise there is no top-up oyster facility rail side) has any substance. I was flat refused this, but at the same time I was not sure enough to keep insisting once it was refused. I know i should have touched in, but from what i now understand I would be the one losing out if i had had credit as I would have been charged more for my journey that just the zone 3 to 1 part as the card would assume i had made a longer journey?

Obviously i now have the aftermath to deal with and as aggrieved as I may or may not feel, this is definitely one of those moments where I know it wasnt and isnt worth the stress i now feel. And once all is said and done I was wrong both my journey actions and in my assumptions.
 
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yorkie

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I just wanted to check if my original assumption i.e that i was expecting to either be able to pay an excess fare for the single journey when my oyster was found not to have credit (i now realise there is no top-up oyster facility rail side) has any substance. I was flat refused this, but at the same time I was not sure enough to keep insisting once it was refused. I know i should have touched in, but from what i now understand I would be the one losing out if i had had credit as I would have been charged more for my journey that just the zone 3 to 1 part as the card would assume i had made a longer journey?
Yes, I do believe that if you had enough credit for a maximum charge to be made, the barriers would have let you through.

But as you didn't have enough credit, it's a moot point.

My advice to all regular (or semi-regular) Oyster users, is to enable auto top-up. None of the arguments against it hold water compared to the peace of mind of avoiding incidents of running out of credit.
 

perniente

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Yes, I do believe that if you had enough credit for a maximum charge to be made, the barriers would have let you through.

But as you didn't have enough credit, it's a moot point.

Thanks. But also did I have any right to ask to buy a single fare ticket or was the £20 penalty fare completely correct?
 

perniente

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Thanks Yorkie. Obviously sat here I can see the relative trivial nature of my indignation. The only thing I can offer in part defense is a bad nights sleep thanks to a 2 yr old with insomnia. Yes. I feel stupid.
 
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perniente

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Top up currently being enabled as we speak. Horse, door, bolted etc My only previous recent experience had been at the additional fares windows train side on the tube. It had led to a false sense of what the safety net was.
 

MikeWh

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OK, the important bits:

You do have to touch in and out when using PAYG, even when one end is covered by a travelcard. The system needs to know what journey you have made. For all it knew you could have got on at Emerson Park and need to be charged both zone 1 and zones 4-6.

My understanding about the credit is a bit different to some. You need to have enough credit to make the minimum fare journey from your start station. If that is covered by a travelcard then you don't have to have any credit. Whilst technically you need to have enough credit for the whole journey, my experience is that the barriers will let you out if the journey you have just made results in a negative balance. In your case you would have been fine if you'd touched in at Stratford, but you'd have needed to top up at Liverpool Street before using the card again, even within your zones.

If the barriers won't let you out it is because you are ending an unstarted journey. This is either because you didn't touch in, or if you have exceeded the maximum journey time. In both situations you need to have enough for the incomplete journey charge to be let through the barriers. The incomplete journey charge is either a zone 1-6 NR+TfL journey if using PAYG throughout or a zone 1-4 NR+TfL journey if you have any sort of travelcard.
 

perniente

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Thanks for your replies. Would anyone be able to clarfiy this point:

I just wanted to check if my assumption that i was expecting to...be able to pay an excess fare (buy a ticket) for the single journey..... has any substance. (rather than only be told to pay the £20 penalty fare)
 

bb21

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It was correct to charge a Penalty Fare in your situation I'm afraid.
 

perniente

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It was correct to charge a Penalty Fare in your situation I'm afraid.

Thank you all of you for your clarification. Not that it changes much, but good to get confirmation of my own stupidity. I will have be suitably contrite and apologetic when my letter comes through and hope for the best. Been feeling pretty down since it happened. Oh well. My first, and hopefully only, ever incident. I certainly dont plan on going through this again.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Thanks for your replies. Would anyone be able to clarfiy this point:

I just wanted to check if my assumption that i was expecting to...be able to pay an excess fare (buy a ticket) for the single journey..... has any substance. (rather than only be told to pay the £20 penalty fare)

The Penalty Fare is correct.

You are supposed to touch in and out when using Oyster at all times, even where you are within your Travelcard zones. If you'd had enough credit on your Oyster you'd have been charged the maximum fare, which is £8.50, because you didn't touch in at the start of your journey. This compares to a zone 1 only ticket at £2.10, so you should touch in in future regardless of the Penalty Fare scheme.

Because you didn't have the credit, it's a Penalty Fare. And because you didn't accept the Penalty Fare it will be a lot more expensive, as Abellio Greater Anglia could choose to prosecute you.

As a side note, you should be grateful it was on Abellio Greater Anglia. Had you done the same thing on the Central Line, or on London Overground, the Penalty Fare would have been £80.

MikeWh said:
Whilst technically you need to have enough credit for the whole journey, my experience is that the barriers will let you out if the journey you have just made results in a negative balance.

That's my experience as well, though the most I've ever gone into the "overdraft" is 90p. I'm assuming that if you go over £5 the card won't let you out, but I can't say that's something I want to test.

One last thing, to save you some money (to offset these costs) going forward: a season ticket from Kelvedon to London Zones 2-6 is £113 a week, compared to the point-to-point at £102 and £23.60 for the weekly travelcard. You would have to touch in on Oyster if you go into zone 1, but if you stay on your paper ticket you don't need to worry about touching in and out.
 
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hassaanhc

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My understanding about the credit is a bit different to some. You need to have enough credit to make the minimum fare journey from your start station. If that is covered by a travelcard then you don't have to have any credit. Whilst technically you need to have enough credit for the whole journey, my experience is that the barriers will let you out if the journey you have just made results in a negative balance. In your case you would have been fine if you'd touched in at Stratford, but you'd have needed to top up at Liverpool Street before using the card again, even within your zones.

That is also my experience :) never had issues with exiting as long as I've touched in at the start even if I get into negative, I remember being over £2 into negative once after I finished! It also lets me in if I have £0.00 and have reached the cap for the zone I'm touching in at (as opposed to the bus-only cap).
 

perniente

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One last thing, to save you some money (to offset these costs) going forward: a season ticket from Kelvedon to London Zones 2-6 is £113 a week, compared to the point-to-point at £102 and £23.60 for the weekly travelcard. You would have to touch in on Oyster if you go into zone 1, but if you stay on your paper ticket you don't need to worry about touching in and out.

Many Thanks. I'll definitely put that to use when my pass expires next week.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Because you didn't have the credit, it's a Penalty Fare. And because you didn't accept the Penalty Fare it will be a lot more expensive, as Abellio Greater Anglia could choose to prosecute you.

As a side note, you should be grateful it was on Abellio Greater Anglia. Had you done the same thing on the Central Line, or on London Overground, the Penalty Fare would have been £80.

Yes. The realisation has made me feel beyond awful the last couple of days. I dont want to speculate as it just makes me more anxious. I probably shouldnt have come on the forum as it doesnt put things to the back of my mind by going over it again. I feel suitably stupid and miserable and powerless now.

Just one thing - i have on several occasions topped up my oyster when not able to exit the tube, at the rail side fares window. Noone has ever mentioned a penalty fare - is this just luck on my part?
 

perniente

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If you hadn't touched in, and were outside the validity of your Travelcard, then yes, you have been lucky in the past.
I think in the past i have probably touched in and/ or been in the validity of my travelcard as it has been at Bermondsey or Mile End which are zone 2. Good to know though. Goodness me. I have top up enabled now so at least I wont risk that happening as well...
 

Tetchytyke

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Many Thanks. I'll definitely put that to use when my pass expires next week.

That ticket is valid monthly (£435) too. If you go into Zone 1 a lot, you could also consider the Kelvedon to London Zones 1-6 ticket, at £130 per week/£500 per month, which isn't any more expensive than what you pay now for the separate season ticket and Travelcard. It depends if you spend £65 a month on fares into Zone 1 (I suspect you don't).

You do need to make sure you touch in with your Oyster if you continue to use it. If you'd had credit on your card you would still have been charged £8.50, for a maximum fare, which is not something you want to do regularly.

If you don't touch in and you're outside the zones of your Travelcard, then you may be charged a Penalty Fare regardless of how much credit you have on your Oyster. The fact you didn't touch in creates the liability for the Penalty Fare- you don't have a "validated Oyster card for travel"- not the lack of credit on the card. On TfL services this is £80, not the £20 Abellio charge.
 
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perniente

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You should. That ticket is valid monthly (£435) too. If you go into Zone 1 a lot, you could also consider the Kelvedon to London Zones 1-6 ticket, at £130 per week/£500 per month, which isn't any more expensive than what you pay now for the separate season ticket and Travelcard. It depends if you spend £65 a month on fares into Zone 1 (I suspect you don't).

You do need to make sure you touch in with your Oyster if you continue to use it. If you'd had credit on your card you would still have been charged £8.50, for a maximum fare, which is not something you want to do regularly.

My trips into zone 1 are work related so I can get the money back. Undoubtedly it makes more sense to do what you suggest and get money for the difference between the zone 1 version and the version i need, rather than constantly topping up. I dont think financially there would be much in it from work's perspective. But from an admin point of view a lot simpler. I just got into the habit of using pay as you go and didnt think anything of it... until now. Not the best way to learn.
 

MikeWh

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You do need to make sure you touch in with your Oyster if you continue to use it. If you'd had credit on your card you would still have been charged £8.50, for a maximum fare, which is not something you want to do regularly.

No it wouldn't.

£8.50 is the off-peak daily cap.
£7.50 is the peak incomplete journey charge
£5.10 is the off-peak incomplete journey charge
£5.30 is the peak incomplete journey charge when used with a travelcard
£4.10 is the off-peak incomplete journey charge when used with a travelcard
 

bb21

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Not all staff are authorised to issue Penalty Fares, and I don't think LU gateline staff are, so the most they could do is let you top up and be charged accordingly.
 

Tetchytyke

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No it wouldn't.

£8.50 is the off-peak daily cap.
£7.50 is the peak incomplete journey charge
£5.10 is the off-peak incomplete journey charge
£5.30 is the peak incomplete journey charge when used with a travelcard
£4.10 is the off-peak incomplete journey charge when used with a travelcard

I stand corrected, I went off the TfL website which says "it can be as much as £8.50".
 

MikeWh

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I stand corrected, I went off the TfL website which says "it can be as much as £8.50".

This is true. But only if the incomplete journey is started or ended at one of the out-of-zone stations like Shenfield. Anywhere within zones 1-9 uses the rates above.
 

34D

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Returning to the OP's matter, I would expect that you'll be receiving a letter from Greater Anglia over the next few months. Post back here with the text of that letter, and we will help you reply.
 

perniente

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Returning to the OP's matter, I would expect that you'll be receiving a letter from Greater Anglia over the next few months. Post back here with the text of that letter, and we will help you reply.
Thank you. I will.
 

perniente

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Hi All

The letter I received is fairly brief. It just states that I was questioned, that they are considering the evidence and asking me to send any further mitigating factors or make any comments and return the letter to them.

I do not have anything to add that I think in anyway exonerates me. The facts are fairly simple, the complicated bits are irrelevant in terms of any "defence" i might have. I dont think it is worth me going into the complicated part in my reply? In terms of mitigation I am guessing they want details not sob stories about the complete lack of sleep from a 2 yr old daughter with sleep problems!

Just to recap. I have a monthly pass to stratford and a zone 2-3 oyster. I had to come through to liverpool st, i cant think of an occassion this has ever been necessary other than on this day, and certainly never since. For any trips into zone 1 i use PAYG oyster charged to work which i had topped up 3 working days previously. when i got to the barrier at Liverpool st i didnt have enough money. i was surprised (*see below) and in my niavity (regarding any leniency i could expect) and ignorance (of the finer points of my wrong doing) i expected to top up or buy a ticket but instead got a no discussion demand for £20. In my tired stupor i chose the path of protest. i am under no illusions as to the fact i was in the wrong and that my ignorance is irrelevant.

*Stratford is a pig for transiting with oyster PAYG as there are so few readers. i have been overcharged several times because i have been rushing for a train and havent been able to find a reader or if my monthly has expired and i am using PAYG then its so easy to forget as the card readers at stratford are like stealth equipment! I've stood on a platform hearing beeps and gone crazy trying to locate the origin. It seems my top up again got caned by just a couple of trips since topping up prior to that morning. Also, there are not even card readers on the platforms that i come through so i would have had to change trains completely. which at the time seemed crazy. obviously in hindsight it would have been a minor inconvenience..

when i have previously run out of PAYG i have been able to top up on the rail side of the underground. this, i know now, is because it always happened at zone 2 stations where i had a valid travelcard but had perhaps passed through zone 1.

anyway, since then i've enabled auto top up and am a lot more savvy with the oyster PAYG system. not that i dont still get caught out at stratford from time to time, but at least now i know how to reclaim! (i started commuting a year ago - i used to live in london but had a motorbike and didnt live on a tube line so took the tube a handful of times in 6 years. I was living in blissful ignorance.)

anyway, i digress. I am not sure how best to reply. do i need to go over the detail again in the letter? from other threads i understood that I could ask if they would be willing to accept a penalty fare plus any expenses and hope that this will be considered.

Many Thanks
 

DaveNewcastle

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Previous replies on here have given you the depressing news that the Penalty Fare was, apparently, correctly issued. You might also have gained the impression that TfL are not usually noted for their leniency or sympathy when considering passengers travelling without a valid ticket.

However, neither of those facts should deter you from telling the truth, and if the contributory circumstances you have mentioned on here are true, and if they might also have been noted by the inspector when you were detected at Liverpool Street stn., then I would advise you to mention them.
Specifically, if it really was your honest belief that you would be permitted to pay at your destination and you had the means to do so, then it would be foolish not to repeat the fact. It doesn't assure you of leniency, but it does give the investigating officer, however strict they may be, the opportunity to consider your circumstances, and in the unfortunate event that no agreement for a settlement could be reached and the matter goes forward to prosecution, then at least your circumstances will be on record as evidence to be reconsidered.

In short - tell the truth.
 

perniente

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Sorry, my post was a little garbled. My offence was related to an oystercard but i was travelling on a GA service. (my ticket is a GA monthly pass as far as Stratford, and my monthly oyster is for zones 2-3 as i travel from stratford to zone 2 every day. So it was at the rail barriers at liverpool st rather than the underground. Just to be clear - should i mention everything i deem relevant or just keep it to what i think they would deem relevant? i.e i dont think GA woudl care if my stupid decision to argue my case was born from tired irrationality..

Oh, and am I correct that the language I should use is to ask if they will consider a penalty fare plus expenses in order to settle? Or am I jumping the gun with this? i.e should i only be discussing this once I receive a letter with an intention to prosecute, which i imagine would be the inevitable next step.
 
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455driver

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If you think it is relevant then put it in but dont waffle on, Accurate, Brief and Concise is the way to go every time!
 
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