Currently running about 50 minutes late. Out of interest, do SWT have a contract with Colas to bring their new units to Wimbledon. Colas 47s have delivered the 458/5s, and would appear to be doing similar things with the 456s
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Class 456's on the move?
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Electrostar
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The sole Connex liveried 456 sparkled when it was first released as did the Southern versions. For some reason the paintwork on both faded really quickly. Not that they were ever in as bad as state as the NSE liveried versions.
Manchester77
Established Member
From Junes modern railways. Looks very like that of the 455 (hope it is actually a 456 and not just a typo!!)
To me it looks to be a typo, but I could be wrong. That picture is identical to a 455 and the fact there is a station visible in the background makes me think it's not a 456 as none of the refurbished ones have come back yet?
It is incorrect - that is the PEP trailer of a 455.
fgwrich
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Indeed, the ex 508 car. And that picture is of an in service unit. Perhaps the picture was used as a rough guide rather than an actual representation.
swt_passenger
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That sounds as if the move might be to swap them with unrefurbished units that have failed on the Ascot-Guildford 'test route'. Wasn't there a significant fault with shoe gear on one of them a few nights ago?
Manchester77
Established Member
Yeah I think a unit gapped at a set of points which caused some issues.
Juniper Driver
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Yeah,I heard they had problems with gapping and of course this causes issues because the can't move.
So how did they get round this? I have heard our 455's are incompatible at the moment with them but am not sure whether this is true.
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I presume they rescued the units at Farnham with further 456s. A number of Alton trains were unable to reach Alton but I believe they were able to turn round at Farnham, and then some 456s could have run from Aldershot or Farnham Depot to rescue. The units at Wanborough were able to move to Guildford Carriage Sidings once repairs to the third rail supply had been completed.
SpacePhoenix
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Do all the bogies on the 456s that don't have shoes have the provision to have shoes fitted?
Helvellyn
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That move should actually have been unrefurbished units coming back from Wolverton! We've been told that due to the Class 458/5 delays and the delays with the refurbishment of the 456s, four un-refurbished units are needed back.
Monty
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That's a 508 trailer from a 455/7, the tapered bodysides and hopper windows are a dead giveaway.
Edit; beaten to it, will teach me not to read the whole page!
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Manchester77
Established Member
Yeah,I heard they had problems with gapping and of course this causes issues because the can't move.
So how did they get round this? I have heard our 455's are incompatible at the moment with them but am not sure whether this is true.
Reading what other SWT employees have said it sounds as if the 456s aren't the best units for SWT, sounds like they won't be best suited in leaf fall season especially! I'd guess they rectified it by running all 456s in pairs maybe so there's less chance of gaoling but I'm not sure?
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That's a 508 trailer from a 455/7, the tapered bodysides and hopper windows are a dead giveaway.
Edit; beaten to it, will teach me not to read the whole page!
Haha it's ok, thought it didn't look right for a 456
samuelmorris
Established Member
Lol gaoling
I had wondered about that - I assume they're always running the 456s in a minimum of 4-car pairs on SWT?
I had wondered about that - I assume they're always running the 456s in a minimum of 4-car pairs on SWT?
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I don't think you'd gain anything from that- currently the shoes are beneath each cab, so if a unit gapped, any additional shoes on the inner bogies would be gapped too.
They are for now, because for some reason SWT aren't permitting 2-car formations in use. Perhaps its for the best if even a 4-car unit managed to gap at Farnham. Originally the plan was for 2-car units only Off-Peak on Guildford-Ascot services, which is more than sufficient capacity for what is a fairly quiet route.
Goldfish62
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SWT don't seem to be having much luck with their various upgrade projects:
-456s which can only be used in pairs
-456 refurb programme running late
-458/5 programme running a year late and now which seems to have ground to a halt
-DDA mods to 455s which still doesn't seem to have started
-retractioning of 455s - first one should have been in traffic this month, but has work even started?
-444 wifi...
All we need now to complete the full set is for SWT's new train order to be delayed a few years by DfT.
-456s which can only be used in pairs
-456 refurb programme running late
-458/5 programme running a year late and now which seems to have ground to a halt
-DDA mods to 455s which still doesn't seem to have started
-retractioning of 455s - first one should have been in traffic this month, but has work even started?
-444 wifi...
All we need now to complete the full set is for SWT's new train order to be delayed a few years by DfT.
SpacePhoenix
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I wonder if SWT wished they'd gone for a big new build of 450s. Had they been able to go for 450s in the first place, instead of 456s, 458s and maybe replacing the 455s), what sort of % of the new units would have been in service by now?
Callum J
Member
Yes, I simply don't get SWT's strategy. Surely this cobbled together 'mixed fleet' is going to cost them more in the long run. Wouldn't commonality of rolling stock keep training and maintenance costs down? Southern seems to have the right idea, retiring older stock on metro lines and moving towards a similar equipment type across their network.
Manchester77
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I don't think SWT really wanted this mixed fleet, I think what they really wanted were 450/2s ~ 5 car desiros however what they got instead was the 458/5 project I think. Let's hope that their OJEU for new EMUs will actually be new EMUs and not some other mixture.
Matt Taylor
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Given a choice I'm pretty confident SWT would have preferred new build 450s as it would have given economies of scale in respect of crew training and maintenance issues. The 455s still have ten years in them so additional Desiros would be of no use to assist with train lengthening so the 456s were always the sensible choice-either that or additional 455s from Southern.
fgwrich
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Well, they were offered it. The two options available to SWT at the time were the more expensive Angel Trains proposal of more 450 EMUs. The cheaper was the Porterbrook option of 456s from Southern and keen to show that Wabtec/Alstom/Porterbrook were up to the job (and trying to find a home for a now redundant microfleet of Junipers and potentially facing further homeless roling stock problems) the rebuilt and re-engineered 458/5 project. Unfortunately for SWT Porterbrook won them over and now they seem to be stuck deeper in several delaying projects at once, a very cake and eating at once scenario.
samuelmorris
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Were they offered Desiros at a time when they would have been able to order more units to the same standard as the existing 450s, or did this come at a time after the original design was non-compliant? If they couldn't have an exact like-for-like, perhaps that might have added weight to the cheaper option with Porterbrook.
Which routes are most likely to benefit from the "new build" stock at the moment? (i.e. if that one is also delayed, who loses out?)
Which routes are most likely to benefit from the "new build" stock at the moment? (i.e. if that one is also delayed, who loses out?)
Around the time of the original Desiro order they were also to get 32 5-car 450/2 for Hounslow/Windsor services but the SRA didn't want to pay for platform extensions. Those carriages became 450101-110 350101-130 as 4 car units
swt_passenger
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I'm sure 450s would have been possible, don't forget this project is meeting an ITT originally issued in 2009. That's well before LM were allowed extra 350s...
cjmillsnun
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Was SWT offered it, or was the choice made for them by DaFT? My money is on DaFT making the decision. SWT would definitely have preferred more 450s and to have been able to ditch the 458s entirely. It would've left them three mainland fleets. The Desiros, the 158/159s and the 455s.
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samuelmorris
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So I assume the process was just paused, rather than restarted? Most ITTs issued in 2009 would have had the units delivered by now...
SpacePhoenix
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Would 450s be suitable for all the routes currently using 455s? If they are then the 455s could have potentially have been eliminated as well.
Not seen any pics yet showing the whole of a 456 in the metro livery, my gut feeling is that they don't look very nice in the metro livery
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