• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

New route added to London Overground concession from May 2015

Status
Not open for further replies.
cjohnson

cjohnson

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2009
Messages
597
It's been a busy few days on the franchise/concession front...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/medi...verground-operator-to-run-additional-services

Transport for London (TfL) has agreed to appoint LOROL, the London Overground train operator, on an interim basis to run local services out of Liverpool Street Station to north east London and improve standards for passengers.

LOROL (London Overground Rail Operations Ltd) will run the services – currently managed under the Greater Anglia franchise – between Liverpool Street and Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford as well as those on the Romford to Upminster line for 17 months starting on 31 May next year.

The London Overground concession, including these latest additions, will then be re-let following an established bidding process.

Under TfL, and from day one of the transfer, passengers can look forward to seeing staff at all London Overground -managed stations while trains are running.

Their presence will bring immediate improvements to station security, safety and accessibility. Oyster will continue to be available to passengers who will also be able to use contactless payment cards for the same PAYG fare.

They will be able to take advantage of TfL’s extensive multi-media travel service information.

In a rolling programme, all of the stations will be thoroughly cleaned, and have new, modern ticket machines installed.

The trains will also be fully cleaned but TfL has ordered new ones which will carry more people more reliably than before.

LOROL has operated London Overground for TfL, since 2007.

During that time the network has been significantly extended, carrying more people than ever, and it has become one of the most punctual railways in the UK.

The Director of London Rail, Jonathan Fox, who leads TfL’s mainline rail business said: “London Overground is coming to West Anglia and will bring more staff, simpler ticketing and, eventually, brand new trains to these lines. LOROL has a proven record on delivery and I'm pleased that this will now extend to West Anglia.”

LOROL will take over the new routes on 31 May 2015 and run them until November 2016 when the current London Overground concession is due to end.



The delivery of a new fleet of trains for these routes is being planned with the first of the new units arriving in summer 2018.
Until then the existing West Anglia train fleet – after deep cleaning - will continue to be used

TfL intends to improve the performance and reliability of the services by:

-agreeing a contract which will focus the operator’s resources on the delivery of benefits to passengers
-providing a new train fleet with less risk of failure
-close working with Network Rail

-Preliminary work on the procurement of the new London Overground Concession due for issue in 2016 which will include these Liverpool Street station services has already begun
-LOROL began operating the seven-year London Overground concession in November 2007. Under a contractual option, this was extended by two years until November 2016 following the successful delivery of Olympic services
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

J

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
by the time they take over the fleet will all be white with red doors- how hard would it be to add a wrap-around yellow end and blue lower body in vinyl? Would then almost match the existing LOROL colours!
 
E

Electrostar

Member
Joined
18 May 2009
Messages
312
I can't see TfL wanting to tarnish the Overground brand by applying house colours to old stock. When it took over Silverlink Metro, LO cleaned the 313s and applied stickers with London Overground written in New Johnson font. The roundel was nowhere to be seen. It did appear on stations next to the words temporary signs and only once the stations were up to a suitable standard were real roundels and colours introduced. You'd hope that West Anglia can achieve LO-style frequencies but I understand anything under 30 minutes is a no-go for the Romford-Upmister shuttle at present. Again this diminishes the also brand, so perhaps we'll see an alternative look for this line, even if it is something similar to the Olympia shuttle line on the Underground tube map albeit on orange not green.
 
S

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
New build of 378s for that route if it's AC all the way? What class is currently used for that route (and numbers)?
 
Manchester77

Manchester77

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2012
Messages
2,628
Location
Manchester
SpacePhoenix said:
New build of 378s for that route if it's AC all the way? What class is currently used for that route (and numbers)?
Click to expand...

An OJEU for 39 new EMUs for the lines out of Liverpool street plus the shuttle has been made. Just because LO currently have 378s doesn't mean bombardier will get the contract (they may not even bid since Derby will be busy with 345s, 387s, S stock). The only way if that happening would be for TfL to include in the yet to be published ITT that the new trains must've fully comparable with the 378s as the DfT did when procuring the 377/6s to ensure bombardier got the contract.
 
J

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
The services in question are mainly Class 315 with some Class 317. There's already an OJEU notice out for the new stock,. It requires 30 4 car AC EMUs (20m carriages) (to replace 28 in use), an additional unit (for the Romford-Upminster shuttle) and includes another 8 for GOBLIN services.They don't HAVE to be 378s. TFL Press Release from April
 
S

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
jopsuk said:
The services in question are mainly Class 315 with some Class 317. There's already an OJEU notice out for the new stock,. It requires 30 4 car AC EMUs (20m carriages) (to replace 28 in use), an additional unit (for the Romford-Upminster shuttle) and includes another 8 for GOBLIN services.They don't HAVE to be 378s. TFL Press Release from April
Click to expand...

It would make sense for them to be 378s as that would give LO the flexibility to move stock around and not have to worry about if drivers are trained on them (only concern would be the units setup atm as DC only)
 
4

47802

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2013
Messages
3,455
Manchester77 said:
An OJEU for 39 new EMUs for the lines out of Liverpool street plus the shuttle has been made. Just because LO currently have 378s doesn't mean bombardier will get the contract (they may not even bid since Derby will be busy with 345s, 387s, S stock). The only way if that happening would be for TfL to include in the yet to be published ITT that the new trains must've fully comparable with the 378s as the DfT did when procuring the 377/6s to ensure bombardier got the contract.
Click to expand...

I would imagine Bombardier will want to bid but with their next generation Aventra units rather than 378's unless TfL particularly want 378's.
 
Starmill

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,359
Location
Bolton
"The trains will also be fully cleaned but TfL has ordered new ones which will carry more people more reliably than before." seems a tad misleading considering how far in the process they really are...
 
Manchester77

Manchester77

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2012
Messages
2,628
Location
Manchester
47802 said:
I would imagine Bombardier will want to bid but with their next generation Aventra units rather than 378's unless TfL particularly want 378's.
Click to expand...

Quite I think the idea of 378s being ordered is purely based on the fact they were ordered for the original LO routes, there are newer designs for this kind of work now.
 
C

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,933
If they were Class 378s then they could be easily maintained at Willesden and New Cross perhaps TfL would move out of Ilford EMUD.

Stabling at Chingford, Enfield Town and perhaps Orient Way.
 
S

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,382
Class 170101 said:
If they were Class 378s then they could be easily maintained at Willesden and New Cross perhaps TfL would move out of Ilford EMUD.

Stabling at Chingford, Enfield Town and perhaps Orient Way.
Click to expand...

None of that makes sense. Existing LO depots are full dealing with their existing fleet, which is why new sidings are being built at Silwood for the 5th car expansion. AC units for west Anglia wouldn't be provided with DC pickup just to get to New Cross Gate, and how would space suddenly become available at Orient Way?
 
C

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,129
Weren't there rumours less than a year ago that london overground was considering using 508s or 313s again on Watford dc line services to free up 378s for use elsewhere
 
Last edited:
I

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,641
Why is it being passed onto TFL and LOROL. Why not simply wait until the next concession is let? Or does that not fit in with the Greater Anglia franchise. There is no mention of whether Greater Anglia have done a good job or not?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
S

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,382
infobleep said:
Why is it being passed onto TFL and LOROL. Why not simply wait until the next concession is let? Or does that not fit in with the Greater Anglia franchise. There is no mention of whether Greater Anglia have done a good job or not?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The small subset of 'West Anglia' metro routes are being handed over because Tfl proposed it a few years back. They also asked about a similar group of Southeastern metro services, but this was turned down. In TfL's long term view they'd want all metro services, some will almost certainly transfer via Crossrail 2.
(The WA routes of the current GA area have only been with that franchise a relatively short time - they used to belong to a different franchise, known as WAGN, before that was reorganised into the GN part of the present FCC setup as a precursor to full Thameslink.)
I suspect the date is not random, it might reflect an original end date of the GA franchise, but the remainder TOC franchising date has slipped like all the others.
 
T

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,067
The trains will also be fully cleaned
Click to expand...
An interesting commentary about current standards of cleaning and maintenance. However, it seems we must wait for another year for this cleaning to even start happening.

It does make you wonder what maintenance and cleaning work currently happens. Every time I suggest on here that services outside the immediate peak which have minimal formations and many standees be strengthened with the stock clearly seen standing in sidings in evenings, weekends, and such like, there are multiple responses that this is quite impossible because of all the maintenance that is taking place on that stock, standing there for all but a few rush hour trips 5 days a week. No way that expensive stock can be used, apparently, because it's all in a grand maintenance plan.

Or not, it now appears.
 
C

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Taunton said:
An interesting commentary about current standards of cleaning and maintenance. However, it seems we must wait for another year for this cleaning to even start happening.

It does make you wonder what maintenance and cleaning work currently happens. Every time I suggest on here that services outside the immediate peak which have minimal formations and many standees be strengthened with the stock clearly seen standing in sidings in evenings, weekends, and such like, there are multiple responses that this is quite impossible because of all the maintenance that is taking place on that stock, standing there for all but a few rush hour trips 5 days a week. No way that expensive stock can be used, apparently, because it's all in a grand maintenance plan.

Or not, it now appears.
Click to expand...

How do you know nothing is going on with the stock that is stood there? Some may be being worked on that you cant see alongside some stock being on restricted milages so that they can work a bit longer before they go in for their exams much later.

And with regards to the cleaning side of things they probably do get cleaned every night along with a heavy clean every so often but its the turnround cleaning that will more than likely be improved along with shortening of the heavy clean.

Perception from passengers compared to what actually goes on are two very different things.
 
Last edited:
Tetchytyke

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,305
Location
Isle of Man
The 315s on Abellio are really starting to look grimy and uncared for, and that'll be what London Overground will sort out. They did the same thing with the 313s when they took them from Silverlink, who again had simply not looked after them.

The 315s will be a disaster zone before LO take over, if past experience is anything to go by; Abellio won't touch them. It's not a problem just with Abellio either; the LM 321s are in a disgraceful state internally because LM intended to get shut of them.
 
M

Muzer

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2012
Messages
2,773
Why the "Romminster"? Doesn't appear to be anywhere near any other proposed London Overground services... weird.

Also seems a bit odd not including Hertford East/services starting from Stratford, but if they want to stick within the current zones and not change the service pattern, I suppose it makes sense.
 
C

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,129
Muzer said:
Why the "Romminster"? Doesn't appear to be anywhere near any other proposed London Overground services... weird.

Also seems a bit odd not including Hertford East/services starting from Stratford, but if they want to stick within the current zones and not change the service pattern, I suppose it makes sense.
Click to expand...

Suppose it may make more sense when TFL is running crossrail services through Romford
 
I

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,335
What does seem odd to me is that Romford-Upminster is included in the Overground-Crossrail transfers, yet the Greenford branch isnt. Heck is it even being electrified?!
 
S

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,382
IanXC said:
... Heck is it even being electrified?!
Click to expand...

No plans to electrify AFAICT. All the other GW passenger branches out to Reading are listed, as is the short connection between the GWML and the NLL near Acton.

Unless it is being consistently forgotten in NR documents, I'd say it isn't going to be done.
 
O

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
I'm guessing that TfL Overground will not be taking on the Greenford branch, with the expectation that it will come under the Crossrail jurisdiction, withe the latter possibly subcontracting vehicles and drivers from the GWML franchisee. The latter, or other alternative, is probably not yet agreed thus the absence of news.
 
I

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,335
At the risk of going further off topic, the Greenfords branch is specifically listed as included in the GW (ITT?) documentation published recently.

It'll be one of the most remote diesel islands whether it ends up with for GW, Overground or Crossrail!
 
S

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,382
IanXC said:
At the risk of going further off topic, the Greenfords branch is specifically listed as included in the GW (ITT?) documentation published recently.

It'll be one of the most remote diesel islands whether it ends up with for GW, Overground or Crossrail!
Click to expand...

I think it could also be given to Chiltern. It could provide some sort of all stations stopper (from somewhere such as Gerrards Cross) to West Ealing for interchange onto Crossrail, hence making some capacity available at Marylebone for longer distance services.

But as you say, the latest GW franchise stuff (its a consultation) still includes the route with GW...
 
O

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
IanXC said:
At the risk of going further off topic, the Greenfords branch is specifically listed as included in the GW (ITT?) documentation published recently.

It'll be one of the most remote diesel islands whether it ends up with for GW, Overground or Crossrail!
Click to expand...

Agreed, but I am wondering if that intent precedes the authorization for the extension of Crossrail to Reading.

My thinking was that Crossrail would have overall ay to ay operational control an responsibility even in the vehicles an staff a subcontracted in from another company.
 
S

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,382
Olaf said:
Agreed, but I am wondering if that intent precedes the authorization for the extension of Crossrail to Reading.

My thinking was that Crossrail would have overall ay to ay operational control an responsibility even in the vehicles an staff a subcontracted in from another company.
Click to expand...

But Crossrail don't need day to day operational control as the service is cut back to West Ealing bay specifically so as not to run on the GW reliefs.

(Except for ECS moves to get to the depot - wherever they end up basing the stock when it is the only DMUs for miles around...)
 
HSTEd

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,706
Are we sure they won't just electrify it with 'spare equipment' or what not at the end of the wiring work on the project?
 
Tetchytyke

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,305
Location
Isle of Man
swt_passenger said:
I think it could also be given to Chiltern. It could provide some sort of all stations stopper (from somewhere such as Gerrards Cross) to West Ealing for interchange onto Crossrail
Click to expand...

It would make sense for Chiltern to run it, but if they run through from Ruislip then stopping at Greenford would be impossible without a fair bit of building work.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top