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TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

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TheGrandWazoo

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Indeed, it looks like two buses will start at Aberystwyth as the 05:40 Aberystwyth-Carmarthen service has been reduced to just Lampeter-Carmarthen and the 18:10 from Carmarthen will turn back at Aberaeron (change there for Richards Bros service to/from Aberystwyth). Overall, the timetable looks quite good although the 06:40 Aberystwyth to Carmarthen could do with being 15-20 minutes earlier for commuters to Carmarthen and it really needs different service numbers for the route via Pencarreg versus via Llanwnnen. It also doesn't meet the Winklers' 50% slower than the car target, apart from the early morning and late evening journeys which ommit Pencader (and thus might also need another service number).

I think they probably mean Lewis and Richards Bros, although if First are happy to accept Richards Bros tickets between Aberaeron and Aberystwyth that is still an improvement on Arriva.

I wouldn't worry about the Winkler report - the 50% was an arbitrary figure anyway, not based on any empirical research

As for sympathetic suppliers, I think it's more a reference to Arriva (who weren't sympathetic) than anyone else.
 
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Rhydgaled

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I wouldn't worry about the Winkler report - the 50% was an arbitrary figure anyway, not based on any empirical research
An arbitary figure yes, but one that seems to be thinking along the right lines in my opinion (esspecially the suggested ideal figure of 33% that went along with it). I didn't mind the old X50 at 1hr 22mins (32.26% slower than the estimated drive time) but the new one (really the 550/50 in disguise, since it serves Aberporth and New Quay) is a chore (and is over 50% slower than the car).
 

TheGrandWazoo

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An arbitary figure yes, but one that seems to be thinking along the right lines in my opinion (esspecially the suggested ideal figure of 33% that went along with it). I didn't mind the old X50 at 1hr 22mins (32.26% slower than the estimated drive time) but the new one (really the 550/50 in disguise, since it serves Aberporth and New Quay) is a chore (and is over 50% slower than the car).

Yes, and opinions are fine when we're messing about on message board but guessing in a government report that should influence policy?

It is always a fine balance between serving villages etc to pick up passengers vs losing passengers as journey times are excessive. Average passenger dwell time (journey duration) is a key consideration so on shorter services, the 33% may only constitute 10 mins or so for most passengers. It's that sort of info (that should be readily available) that should've been employed rather than merely looking at end to end times.
 

Rhydgaled

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Yes, and opinions are fine when we're messing about on message board but guessing in a government report that should influence policy?
Good point, the report should really have done better than guesswork. That said, the few areas where the report differs from the WAG policy seem to have been ignored anyway.
Winkler Review said:
These figures are no more than my personal views as a bus user and further research amongst passengers should be undertaken to establish if this is reasonable.
My bold. The report might have been limited to guesswork, but at least it recomended looking into it in more detail. This does not appear to have been taken on board by WAG.

It is always a fine balance between serving villages etc to pick up passengers vs losing passengers as journey times are excessive.
I agree. This relates to what I said earlier in the topic about the X50/50/550: having (almost) all services go via New Quay makes sense in terms of local bus service provision, but it shouldn't try to pretend it is part of a long-distance strategic network as it does not do that job well.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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... and the 18:10 from Carmarthen will turn back at Aberaeron (change there for Richards Bros service to/from Aberystwyth).

strange how a Carmarthenshire county council timetable doesn't mention that there is an earlier connection with the 701 (which is chasing the 40/40c).

Dare I suggest this as further evidence that the authorities involved are suffering a severe dose of sour grapes and are prepared to do anything within their powers (including flouting relevant legislation) to make sure that the 701 is no longer commercially viable?

I have challenged Alun Williams on his blogspot to justify the waste of taxpayers money subsidising journeys that compete with a commercial service... strangely he hasn't made any reply so far...

perhaps because, especially in these financially straitened times, there IS no justification?

one point to note is that if ever the 701 was to be withdrawn then the councils would have to find even more money to support bus services as a direct bus route between Aber and Cardiff is a major part of the WAG's wish list for the TrawsCymru network!
 

Rhydgaled

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strange how a Carmarthenshire county council timetable doesn't mention that there is an earlier connection with the 701 (which is chasing the 40/40c).
The timetable link trawscymru27 posted on the previous page is a First Group page, not Carmarthenshire council. It may well be that the council timetable will show the 701.

a direct bus route between Aber and Cardiff is a major part of the WAG's wish list for the TrawsCymru network!
Is it? If I remember correctly the X40 was commertial south of Carmarthen, and it certainly wasn't direct (operating via Swansea).

Personally, I think Aberystwyth-Cardiff would only fit in the TrawsCymru network if they had gone for a network of infrequent coach services (like the 701 and Arriva's shortlived 20 service) and kept TrawsCambria as the more frequent network operated by low-floor buses. Then again, I would suggest the best improvment to public transport between Aberystwyth and Cardiff would probably be introducing express train services to slash the rail jouney time between Carmarthen and Cardiff, and have buses connecting with them at Carmarthen.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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The timetable link trawscymru27 posted on the previous page is a First Group page, not Carmarthenshire council. It may well be that the council timetable will show the 701.

have a look at Carmarthenshire's timetables and then look at the format and style of the 40 timetable that's been published and you will see that the timetable is a Carmarthenshire publication.

Is it? If I remember correctly the X40 was commertial south of Carmarthen, and it certainly wasn't direct (operating via Swansea).

Seeing as though the original idea of WAG's involvement was to expand upon the original TrawsCambria service and that service was the 701 then yes a direct service between Aber and Cardiff has always been a part of the WAG's plans for TrawsCymru.

Personally, I think Aberystwyth-Cardiff would only fit in the TrawsCymru network if they had gone for a network of infrequent coach services (like the 701 and Arriva's shortlived 20 service) and kept TrawsCambria as the more frequent network operated by low-floor buses.

why can't both frequent and infrequent services be part of the same network? Surely the major problems that have been encountered with the establishment of a TrawsCymru network has been the WAG's blind insistence in trying to make all services conform to a standard frequency no matter what the need and usage?

Then again, I would suggest the best improvment to public transport between Aberystwyth and Cardiff would probably be introducing express train services to slash the rail jouney time between Carmarthen and Cardiff, and have buses connecting with them at Carmarthen.

Surely you aren't advocating re-instating the railway line between Aber and Carmarthen? The route can hardly sustain a bus service apparently (hence the large sums of money being used to subsidise the service)

If you mean running an express via Shrewsbury then you are forgetting that much of the line between aber and shrewsbury is single track and so is governed to a very low speed by law (for obvious safety reasons)... that along with the extra mileage involved means that a direct train between Aber and Csrdiff could never compete with the times offered by any express coach service.
 

WestyAds

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have a look at Carmarthenshire's timetables and then look at the format and style of the 40 timetable that's been published and you will see that the timetable is a Carmarthenshire publication.

[...]

why can't both frequent and infrequent services be part of the same network? Surely the major problems that have been encountered with the establishment of a TrawsCymru network has been the WAG's blind insistence in trying to make all services conform to a standard frequency no matter what the need and usage?

Whilst I by no means disagree with much of what you're saying, if the 701 times were incorporated in the published timetables for the T1 service, I can foresee complaints from passengers who will expect return tickets or rovers purchased on the T1 to be accepted on the 701 - and vice versa - on account of both services appearing on the same timetable, which of course is not the case.

I would hope that, as part of the planning for this new contract, the councils sought to reach a financial agreement with Bryans Coaches that would allow such cross-ticketing, thereby providing a better service to passengers all round and reducing the costs related to duplication of services. In the absence of any information on this matter, we have to assume that either they didn't make any effort to reach such an agreement, in which case I'd say there's been a serious failing in the preparation of the contract, or that they tried and couldn't reach an agreement, in which case I completely understand (and, as a frequent West Wales Rover traveller, support) the schedule we've got.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Surely you aren't advocating re-instating the railway line between Aber and Carmarthen? The route can hardly sustain a bus service apparently (hence the large sums of money being used to subsidise the service)

.

I rather sadly think that our OP is suggesting the reinstatement of the rail line. As a comparison, the Borders Rail reinstatement is £350m for c.30 miles of line into Edinburgh, a major traffic objective. Neither Carmarthen nor Aber are anything like that type of objective, the trackbed has been built on and the projected cost is estimated at £650m as a result. It won't happen, irrespective of the number of well intentioned blogs and petitions and, as is evident, even a regular bus service needs revenue support so hardly a ringing endorsement.

Back on topic, I do welcome investment in public transport and I'd be interested in seeing what First do put out on that route, how ridership develops and what sort of numbers those late journeys will get. Not many is my guess on the latter!!
 

Rhydgaled

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have a look at Carmarthenshire's timetables and then look at the format and style of the 40 timetable that's been published and you will see that the timetable is a Carmarthenshire publication.
Granted, the style looks similar, but there are a number of differences between the First Group T1 timetable and the current 40/40c timetable on Carmarthenshire council's website. For example, the council logo is not included on the T1 timetable and the service caption, effective date etc. are red text on white rather than white text on green. Also, the Carmarthenshire council timetable does not use the 24 hour clock, the T1 timetable does.

Seeing as though the original idea of WAG's involvement was to expand upon the original TrawsCambria service and that service was the 701 then yes a direct service between Aber and Cardiff has always been a part of the WAG's plans for TrawsCymru.
The 701 is a coach service though. While coaches did appear to be the plan for TrawsCymru initially WAG seem to have changed tack and are sticking with low-floor buses.

why can't both frequent and infrequent services be part of the same network?
I suppose there's no reason for that. My main point however was that express coaches and stop-anywhere buses, being two very different things, should be seperate brands.

Surely the major problems that have been encountered with the establishment of a TrawsCymru network has been the WAG's blind insistence in trying to make all services conform to a standard frequency no matter what the need and usage?
Have you an example of that? The three services we have solid details of so far (T1, T4 and T9) do not appear to conform to a standard frequency at all, ranging from the T9 at every 20mins to T4 at two-hour intervals. I would suggest a minimum frequency of every two or three hours as part of the brand ethos for a stop-anywhere bus network, but wouldn't specify a maximum frequency.

Surely you aren't advocating re-instating the railway line between Aber and Carmarthen? The route can hardly sustain a bus service apparently (hence the large sums of money being used to subsidise the service)
I rather sadly think that our OP is suggesting the reinstatement of the rail line.
I am (conditionally) in favor of a new Aberystwyth-Carmarthen rail line, but that isn't what I proposed above. Read carefully (I'll add some bold to help):
I would suggest the best improvment to public transport between Aberystwyth and Cardiff would probably be introducing express train services to slash the rail jouney time between Carmarthen and Cardiff, and have buses connecting with them at Carmarthen.
No rail lines needing to be built for that, just some extra rolling stock and train services, and ideally some linespeed improvements. That makes the journey from Carmarthen to Cardiff much faster (which would benifit Carmarthen and possibly Milford and Fishguard as well as passengers connecting off the bus from Aberystwyth).

If you mean running an express via Shrewsbury then you are forgetting that much of the line between aber and shrewsbury is single track and so is governed to a very low speed by law (for obvious safety reasons).
That wasn't what I was suggesting, it is much too indirect, but the single track doesn't limit the Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury trains to a very low speed (unless you call 80mph a very low speed).

Back on topic, I do welcome investment in public transport and I'd be interested in seeing what First do put out on that route, how ridership develops and what sort of numbers those late journeys will get. Not many is my guess on the latter!!
The question of vehicles already appears to have been answered, at least in part:
It looks like First Cymru's 67438 and 67439 (Swansea P&R Enviro300's) have been repainted into a unbranded TrawsCymru livery.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95768318@N07/14368270966
 

Bwsbro

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The Current X94 Tender has been extended until the 1/11/2014

A new tender has been published for TrawsCymru Service T3 between Barmouth and Wrexham


Also Published is the tender for the Sunday TrawsCymru Service T2 after the Monday to Saturday tender being published earlier.


This just means that the tender for the X50 Aberystwyth - Aberteifi. Which will be a TrawsCymru T5 between Aberystwyth and Haverfordwest
 

Attachments

  • T3 Tender Timetable June 2014-2.pdf
    99.5 KB · Views: 64
  • TrawsCymru T3 Service Specification June 2014-2.pdf
    51.6 KB · Views: 37
  • TrawsCymru T2 Sunday Service Specification June 2014.pdf
    234.2 KB · Views: 22

Rhydgaled

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The Current X94 Tender has been extended until the 1/11/2014

A new tender has been published for TrawsCymru Service T3 between Barmouth and Wrexham


Also Published is the tender for the Sunday TrawsCymru Service T2 after the Monday to Saturday tender being published earlier.
Thanks for posting that information. There seems to be a mistake on page 4 of the T3 service specification, it says limited stop between Barmouth and Wrexham. I guess it probably means limted stop between Barmouth and Dolgellau, which is the case at present I believe, rather than the whole route.

This just means that the tender for the X50 Aberystwyth - Aberteifi. Which will be a TrawsCymru T5 between Aberystwyth and Haverfordwest
Not via New Quay, Aberporth and Fishguard I hope, though sadly it probably will be. Services T1 to T4 look to all have a Sunday service of some description, I wonder if that points to there being a Sunday service T5 as well?
 

burns20

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The X94 is currently limited stop between Wrexham and Llangollen (all stops evenings) and all stops Llangollen to Barmouth.
 

Rhydgaled

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The X94 is currently limited stop between Wrexham and Llangollen (all stops evenings) and all stops Llangollen to Barmouth.
I thought there was a commertial service between Dolgellau and Barmouth, meaning most X94 journeys run limited stop on that section (as well as between Wrexham and Llangollen, forgot that one). I think it is all stops Llangollen to Dolgellau though, which is why I think there might be an error in the new ITT which seems to suggest limited-stop throughout.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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The 701 is a coach service though. While coaches did appear to be the plan for TrawsCymru initially WAG seem to have changed tack and are sticking with low-floor buses.

yes the 701 service IS operated by coaches but is a limited stop BUS service, being registered as a local bus service with the Traffic Commissioners (what used to be called stage carriage). In fact the 701, which remember is the original TrawsCambria route has ALWAYS been scheduled to operate with coaches... due to the distances and journey times involved.

I suppose there's no reason for that. My main point however was that express coaches and stop-anywhere buses, being two very different things, should be seperate beands.

I wish you would stop referring to the 701 as an express service, as I state above it is a LIMITED STOP service. There is a big difference both in form of operation and legal status.

as to whether express coaches and limited stop (or even all stop) services being able to share the same brand... dare I point to the most famous local coach service? GREEN LINE?

Green Line in it's heyday had a range of services under it's wing such as 757 which ran Luton Airport-Luton- Victoria and ran virtually non-stop.

then there were long distance services such as 727 (Luton Airport-Watford-Heathrow- Gatwick- Crawley) which seemed to stop every 3rd bus stop

and of course there were whole sections of Green Line routes that stopped at EVERY stop as they were the only service along that section or provided a convenient way of doubling the frequency.

and of course Green Line routes could be scheduled to operate with everything from luxury coaches down to dual purpose buses.

tbh the main problem with what WAG are trying to do with TrawsCymru is nothing more than an exercise in central control of bus services in Wales with little or no understanding of how the industry works, or dare I say it, marketing!
 

Rhydgaled

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the 701
...
has ALWAYS been scheduled to operate with coaches... due to the distances and journey times involved.
Indeed, which is why I don't think the new TrawsCymru (which uses low-floor buses, not coaches) should include an Aberystwyth-Cardiff service.

I wish you would stop referring to the 701 as an express service, as I state above it is a LIMITED STOP service. There is a big difference both in form of operation and legal status.
In the specific passage you quoted, I was refering to WAG's original plan for TrawsCymru (which I think WAS to be express coaches), not the 701. Must confess though that I don't appreciate the operational and legal differences between 'Limited Stop' and 'Express' coach services, to me the only difference is the latter has even fewer stops (which, I admit, doesn't describe the 701).

as to whether express coaches and limited stop (or even all stop) services being able to share the same brand... dare I point to the most famous local coach service? GREEN LINE?

Green Line in it's heyday had a range of services under it's wing such as 757 which ran Luton Airport-Luton- Victoria and ran virtually non-stop.

then there were long distance services such as 727 (Luton Airport-Watford-Heathrow- Gatwick- Crawley) which seemed to stop every 3rd bus stop

and of course there were whole sections of Green Line routes that stopped at EVERY stop as they were the only service along that section or provided a convenient way of doubling the frequency.

and of course Green Line routes could be scheduled to operate with everything from luxury coaches down to dual purpose buses.
Does having that mix of services work effectively as a single brand though? I don't know anything about Green Line, but personally think having both TrawsCambria (low-floor buses on all-stops routes) and TrawsCymru (limted stop and/or express coaches) would be better than a single brand covering both types of service.
 

WestyAds

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It looks like First Cymru's 67438 and 67439 (Swansea P&R Enviro300's) have been repainted into a unbranded TrawsCymru livery.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95768318@N07/14368270966

Noticed today that these are now in service on the 40/40C route. And what a lovely smooth ride it was on one of these down to Carmarthen - certainly more so than the return trip on a Scania OmniCity, the back of which I have to admit I will not be sad to see.

My word, though, the standard First pink and mauve interior looks very odd when paired up with the TrawsCymru exterior livery.
 

WestyAds

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At least one more vehicle has now received a repaint into TrawsCymru colours: passed Enviro 300 67431 on my way down to Carmarthen yesterday (another former Swansea P&R refugee, I assume?).

Minor incident, meanwhile, on the 0840 ex Aberystwyth this Thursday, as our bus underwent a surprise modification just outside Pencader to add extra ventilation, by way of a big hole where one of the door windows had been.

DSC_0059.jpg


After arriving at Carmarthen bus station a little late, the bus was taken out of service instead of running through to the train station and becoming the 1107 back to Aber. Not quite sure if they managed to sort anything out for that service, but certainly nothing had turned up by the time I left the bus station at 1130, which presumably had a knock-on effect for the 1340 from Aber and so on. One of the problems of not having a depot anywhere near either end of the route, I suppose.
 

DaveHarries

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I thought I saw 2x '14' plate Enviros (200s?) on the M4 on Friday morning, both with green skirting.

Dave
 

adey2011

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Bryan's Coaches have today registered a variation of either/both route and timetable for their 701 service from the 7th September. I hope Bryan's prevail and are not run off the road by First's predatory timetable and WAG's failure to play a straight bat.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Bryan's Coaches have today registered a variation of either/both route and timetable for their 701 service from the 7th September. I hope Bryan's prevail and are not run off the road by First's predatory timetable and WAG's failure to play a straight bat.

It isn't First's timetable but one that the WG put forward for ALL parties to tender for.
 

Penrallt

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Apparently Bryan's new 701 service will run via New Quay on Thursdays and Saturdays.


Pick up time in New Quay 09:25 arriving in Cardiff at 12:40
Returning from Cardiff at 17:00 arriving in New Quay 20:26
 

Rhydgaled

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Apparently Bryan's new 701 service will run via New Quay on Thursdays and Saturdays.


Pick up time in New Quay 09:25 arriving in Cardiff at 12:40
Returning from Cardiff at 17:00 arriving in New Quay 20:26
Is that a replacement for one of the current services or an additional journey between the existing 701 services (leaving Aberystwyth at 07:40 and 09:40) via Lampeter?
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Apparently Bryan's new 701 service will run via New Quay on Thursdays and Saturdays.


Pick up time in New Quay 09:25 arriving in Cardiff at 12:40
Returning from Cardiff at 17:00 arriving in New Quay 20:26

Is that a replacement for one of the current services or an additional journey between the existing 701 services (leaving Aberystwyth at 07:40 and 09:40) via Lampeter?

Apparently they have finally decided to remove the 1240 ex Aber and 1800 ex Cardiff from the timetable through lack of use... something they warned would happen if loadings didn't improve.

however the new service (which apparently will be numbered 750) is in ADDITION to the 0740 and 0940 ex aber and 1300 and 1600 ex cardiff journeys on 701

so on thurs & sat there will be departures from aber to cardiff at 0740, 0840 & 0940 with returns from cardiff at 1300, 1600 & 1700.

the new service will of course provide a good NEW link serving all towns and villages between aber-newquay- Llandysul- Carmarthen. so we can only hope that it will be well used and be built to the same level of service on the 701
 

cabbage

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Strong rumours that NAT group have the T9 contract. Nothing official yet though.
 

trawscymru27

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Just been looking at some of First Cymru's new timetables from 3rd August. The positioning movements between Tycroes depot and Carmarthen for the 3 buses operating the T1 from the Carmarthen end will run in service numbered X29 via Cross Hands. Timetable here: http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/new_service_updates/attach_1403609207_24311_X29-129.pdf

Kind of a shame they won't be calling at Ammanford as this would open up some new journey opportunities (Aberystwyth - Ammanford direct etc), albeit first thing in the morning and late at night.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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"Managing Director of First Cymru, Justin Davies added: “We are delighted to be working with the Welsh Government to provide this service. The T1 route is an important service, linking key communities and important universities, and we expect people to really welcome the new timetable, which, for the first time, offers people the chance to travel on Sundays and later into the evening. This is a really positive step forward. "(bold mine)

shows how much interest First have in the route... they've obviously not looked at old timetables if they want to claim it's the first time there has been a sunday or evening service on the route!
 
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