Virgin Guard Assaulted

Fahad said:

Why seek to mitigate it then?

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Not my intention, maybe this will help to clarify:

Does everyone think this harshly about people who assault shop assistants or waiters?

Assault is always wrong, and so it cannot be more wrong because it was done to someone who works for the railway. Or indeed someone who works for noone!

I don't understand the way people think on here sometimes...

no train staff deserve to be assaulted for doing their jobs requirements but was he really punched? Lets not assume just because somebody gets assaulted they were punched or kicked. They could have been pushed or sworn at. And whos to say the TM didn't provoke him? Ive witnessed a TM before speaking to a passenger in a manner that could easily provoke violence.

Flamingo said:

So if the passenger was a bishop, and the guard was trying to sell him a First Open Single, it would be ok then? :roll:

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If you read my post, it says:

Punching someone is always wrong though.

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But hey, it's fine, bring something totally irrelevant in from another thread where lots of your colleagues discredited themselves and one was rather aggressive to me. That's going to do you loads of good!

starmill said:

Not my intention, maybe this will help to clarify:

Does everyone think this harshly about people who assault shop assistants or waiters?
Assault is always wrong, and so it cannot be more wrong because it was done to someone who works for the railway. Or indeed someone who works for noone!

I don't understand the way people think on here sometimes...

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Yes I do, any person who assaults a member of staff (any staff) while they are trying to carrying out their duties should get a minimum 5 years imprisonment.

After a few get locked up it would serve as quite a good deterrent, which is the whole point of prison.
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dannypye9999 said:

no train staff deserve to be assaulted for doing their jobs requirements but was he really punched? Lets not assume just because somebody gets assaulted they were punched or kicked. They could have been pushed or sworn at. And whos to say the TM didn't provoke him? Ive witnessed a TM before speaking to a passenger in a manner that could easily provoke violence.

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You dont have a good word to say about railstaff do you!
You always try and turn things around so its the nasty railways fault and not the poor hard done by passengers fault.

455driver said:

Yes I do, any person who assaults a member of staff (any staff) while they are trying to carrying out their duties should get a minimum 5 years imprisonment.

After a few get locked up it would serve as quite a good deterrent, which is the whole point of prison.
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You dont have a good word to say about railstaff do you!
You always try and turn things around so its the nasty railways fault and not the poor hard done by passengers fault.

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Im not saying that at all, im just suggesting that in some situations its not always the passenger who is in the wrong (although this person here is) and that is my opinion. I hope whoever this thug is gets the harshest sentence he deserves.

Hope this pathetic excuse for a human being is brought to justice and that the guard makes a full recovery.

455driver said:

You dont have a good word to say about railstaff do you!
You always try and turn things around so its the nasty railways fault and not the poor hard done by passengers fault.

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And often staff on here do the exact opposite!

It's an age old debate that I think both you and I are guilty of being less mature than we should about. It's not like there will ever be a resolution to it. Some staff hate their passengers. Some passengers hate the staff... what can we do.

dannypye9999 said:

Im not saying that at all, im just suggesting that in some situations its not always the passenger who is in the wrong (although this person here is) and that is my opinion. I hope whoever this thug is gets the harshest sentence he deserves.

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Every time there is a thread about a member of railstaff being assaulted you always say the same things, making it out that there is a fair chance that the staff member caused it in some way. You might be surprised to learn that some 'passengers' think nothing of whacking somebody because they wanted them to pay for a ticket to travel.

dannypye9999 said:

Im not saying that at all, im just suggesting that in some situations its not always the passenger who is in the wrong (although this person here is) and that is my opinion. I hope whoever this thug is gets the harshest sentence he deserves.

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no one on here has said that 1 is more important than the other! all people have said is no matter what the verbal altercation was this guard did not deserve to be the subject of physical violence whilst carrying out his/her duties!

I can only assume that you are not railway or have never worked in a customer facing role having read back through your comments! and who cares whether he was pushed or swore at? do you go to work expecting any of that to happen to you? I certainly don't and no salary on earth would make me go to work and expect that kind of treatment as par for the course!

people on here are intelligent enough to know that there are 2 sides to any story and they do not need reminding! if the member of staff speaks to you like dirt go down the proper channels there is absolutely no justification for this git's actions end of

What astonishes me is that there is a perception that some front-line staff deserved to be abused more than others.

For example, I doubt those passengers who had a go at the guard at Oxenholme with regards to their train being cancelled would have spoken to an airline pilot, or a member of cabin crew, in that manner.

Passengers directly pay the wages of us mere railway staff which actually makes us sub human. It is therefore perfectly acceptable to be downright rude, display no manners towards us whatsoever, assault us whenever it is felt to be just and generally treat us with absolute contempt.
Thought that was common knowledge...

graham43404 said:

You may wonder what this has to do with this topic, well basically it all happened so speedily as the Germans and Romanians and us btw just accepted these things happened. There was no hissy fits or displays of self importance, so things were sorted fast.

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I was at the Dampfplan in Germany a couple of years ago, when a volunteer was tragically killed by an incoming train. Naturally we all accepted that we were going to be delayed, except one German male who demanded to know from our guard why this was preventing his train from leaving. There are plenty of unpleasant people in all countries.

To be fair, the one bloke who I've ever walked away from properly during disruption was German - he accused me of lying when I said his train was cancelled and he was stuck where he was for a time due to a person being killed by a train. I'm afraid to say I rather sarcastically asked if he'd like to see the pieces and stalked off.

I'm afraid you can't stereotype arseholes by any parameter.

I witnessed one of these morons who show complete disregard for anyone today.

Waiting for a bus today at my stop in Swansea, a bus on a route I didn't want pulled up, stopped and turned the engine off. A passenger was having a seizure, and the bus driver quickly stepped up to call an ambulance and tend to the passenger.

My bus turned up 5 minutes later, and I boarded. As this is a restricted width one-way street, my bus couldn't pass it. Immediately after I boarded a passenger at the front started questioning me what the bus was doing there. I explained the situation, filling in the driver at the same time, and went to sit down near the back.

I heard her start moaning from the front of the bus that we'd be there for at least 30 minutes, that it was ridiculous they would stop a bus to help an ill passenger, and that she had better things to do. She got up and started shouting at the driver to reverse right back down the road and take a different route. ...she got off at the next stop (which was perfectly walkable).

If I hadn't been so far back, or she'd stayed on after I'd got off, I'd have told he to show a little flippin' respect. Didn't think it was appropriate to be shouting that right down the bus.

Back on topic, I hope the VT guard is OK.

starmill said:

If you read my post, it says:



But hey, it's fine, bring something totally irrelevant in from another thread where lots of your colleagues discredited themselves and one was rather aggressive to me. That's going to do you loads of good!

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I read the rest of your post, tacking a bit on the end as an afterthought doesn't change the tone of it, which was that your perception is that the guard probably deserved it.

And I wasn't the only person to reach that conclusion on reading your post.

Flamingo said:

I read the rest of your post, tacking a bit on the end as an afterthought doesn't change the tone of it, which was that your perception is that the guard probably deserved it.

And I wasn't the only person to reach that conclusion on reading your post.

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Well, that's up to you and whoever else then isn't it. I was trying to point out that automatically assuming the staff are right and the passenger is wrong draws harsher reactions than mine, from people who (unlike me) think that the passengers are always right and the staff are always wrong - which is exactly what happened since I posted it. Nobody on either side would ever 'deserve it'.

Like to start off by saying that I hope the Guard is OK and S/He makes a speedy recovery and return to work . Regardless of the situation nobody should be assaulted at work whilst merely carrying out their duties .
This shows the risks that train crew are exposed to day in day out .

Drsatan said:

What astonishes me is that there is a perception that some front-line staff deserved to be abused more than others.

For example, I doubt those passengers who had a go at the guard at Oxenholme with regards to their train being cancelled would have spoken to an airline pilot, or a member of cabin crew, in that manner.

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To be fair I have on a couple of occasions seen people being extremely abusive to cabin crew ,One notable occasion a passenger had decided that the Fasten Seatbelt sign did not apply to him and that midway through some tubulance was the best time for him to retrieve something from his bag in the overheads . When the Cabin crew member pointed out the sign was illuminated for his safety he became very abusive he had obviously had to much to drink,this incident fizzled out and then another passenger knocked his seat as they passed to use the toilet later in the flight , he then beame abusive to her and the cabin crew that come to resolve that issue it then escalated with him threatening other passengers and the cabin crew . It was only when an off duty police officer traveling back from his Holiday pointed out to the man that he could be arrested when the plane landed that he calmed down .He was indeed taken aside by the police when the plane arrived I dont know if he was arrested or not though
I think one of the differences is quite often abuse to cabin crew will often lead to at the very east a word with the police because they are pretty easy to summon to meet an aircraft . And cases of air rage often get dealt with pretty robustly . Wheras on the railway the train can be in a remote location and the assailant can just jump off leaving less of a chance of them being caught .

I do see where you are coming from though , having worked in retail for a while before working on the railway I can see the difference in the way people speak to you , get far less instances of verbal abuse as a guard than I did in retail when I was just a "shelf stacker" . But when it does happen as a guard it is a bit more intimidating because you are on your own .


Either way , some people have that Arrogant talk to people as they wish attitude and will do it to anybody regardless of position .Quite often its people who dont actually have anything to be arrogant about .

Hope he is ok.

On my flight back from Tenerife this year, there was a family with two young kids kicking off, moaning about seats, etc. We had not even left the gate. A disscussion ensured, but when the father told the pilot that he 'hoped he died of cancer', there was no going back. Family off, bags off.

When I got assulted, drunks in first class, one was running round with no pants. I told them to calm down. one of the best sights was the armed police at Gatwick dragging him off kicking and screaming. He got 2 years, and put on the sex offences register. CCTV helped, and one passenger did come forward as a witness. And unlike some posters who think we get assulted as we are asking for hundreds in tickets. never even saw their ticket, just asked them 'calm it down'.

However, being asked in court to repeat what he then told me as I removed myself from the situation was not fun.
'come back here and suck my nipples', not a fun thing to say in court.

Hyphen said:

I witnessed one of these morons who show complete disregard for anyone today.

Waiting for a bus today at my stop in Swansea, a bus on a route I didn't want pulled up, stopped and turned the engine off. A passenger was having a seizure, and the bus driver quickly stepped up to call an ambulance and tend to the passenger.

My bus turned up 5 minutes later, and I boarded. As this is a restricted width one-way street, my bus couldn't pass it. Immediately after I boarded a passenger at the front started questioning me what the bus was doing there. I explained the situation, filling in the driver at the same time, and went to sit down near the back.

I heard her start moaning from the front of the bus that we'd be there for at least 30 minutes, that it was ridiculous they would stop a bus to help an ill passenger, and that she had better things to do. She got up and started shouting at the driver to reverse right back down the road and take a different route. ...she got off at the next stop (which was perfectly walkable).

If I hadn't been so far back, or she'd stayed on after I'd got off, I'd have told he to show a little flippin' respect. Didn't think it was appropriate to be shouting that right down the bus.

Back on topic, I hope the VT guard is OK.

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Sounds familiar. I once stopped a train to call an ambulance to assist a passenger who had collapsed on the station platform. Not only did I get grief from 2 passengers for not leaving the sick lady on the platform, two others actually stepped over her to get on the train.
The mentality of some people sickens me

Hope the guard is OK and the scumbag gets what he deserves.

If only we could all get away with it in the manner of a certain legendary West Midlands guard - smashing his ticket machine around the passenger's head in response AND somehow managing to keep his job. Superb.

Did that actually happen? And was it in self-defence?

I only ask because I don't see why he should keep his job if he reacted to someone by smashing someone's head with an Avantix, unless he was fearing for his safety and reacting in self-defence.

An Avantix to the head hurts as I have found out before, but fortunately for me it was the fault of the train jolting as I was having my ticket inspected and the machine swung and hit me on the side of the head.

Flamingo said:

The last time I was assaulted the passenger got off at the next stop, and I took the train forward (on time) rather than keeping the doors locked until police attended, and taking time to recover my own composure, as I did not want to delay passengers (and I was aware the passenger could easily be tracked down).

The dozen or so passengers who witnessed the assault refused to give their details (an approach that was approved by a large number of members of this forum), once the train had left the station nobody from the company contacted me again for a week to see how I was, and BTP were unable to find the passengers details, despite them contacting Customer Services to complain about my lack of understanding of their "Behavioural Issues"!

The one thing I took from it is that the next time a similar incident happens, regardless of injuries sustained or not, I am going to hit the floor like a sack of spuds, screaming my head off, and that train will not move another foot. If this inconveniences anybody, I don't care, as experience shows they won't care whatever happens to me or my colleagues...

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Time keeping should never get in the way of tackling SERIOUS criminal behavor.
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turboslug said:

the person who assaulted the TM did a runner from station but later turned back up for later service, virgin & tpe staff remembered him & he was arrested

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LOL How stupid can you get? We don't breed the brightest of criminals in broken Britain, that's for sure.

ATW Alex 101 said:

Did that actually happen? And was it in self-defence?

I only ask because I don't see why he should keep his job if he reacted to someone by smashing someone's head with an Avantix, unless he was fearing for his safety and reacting in self-defence.

An Avantix to the head hurts as I have found out before, but fortunately for me it was the fault of the train jolting as I was having my ticket inspected and the machine swung and hit me on the side of the head.

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It did, I believe it predated Avantix and as he kept his job it's safe to say he did fear for his wellbeing.

ATW Alex 101 said:

Did that actually happen? And was it in self-defence?

I only ask because I don't see why he should keep his job if he reacted to someone by smashing someone's head with an Avantix, unless he was fearing for his safety and reacting in self-defence.

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I think it would have depended on the incident. I know absolutely nothing about the one in question but if someone came at a conductor/TM with a weapon or a knife I would expect if they took a swing with the Avantix machine it would be considered reasonable force, if someone was threatening, or even only punched a TM I doubt it would.

This being from mine, a conductors, POV.

I would also agree that if the guard was being beaten up or attacked with a weapon, a ticket machine around the head is reasonable force. I certainly would do the same if I were in such a position.

Reminds me of a Journey I did from London Liverpool Street to Norwich one night before xmas.

Some drunk bloke mouthed a guard off and the guard basically mouthed back. A passenger intervened and got thumped by the drunk. Unfortunately for the drunk the pax he lumped was a woman. The rest of the coach went mad at the drunk guy and prevented him leaving the train Manningtree (I think). By this point the guard had done one back to the DVT to call the BtP. The plod turn up and try to remove the bloke only to be stopped because the guard has got the doors locked and didn't notice the BtP arriving. Meanwhile the platform staff are just stood around on the platform talking, the drivers gone for a smoke and the guards having a nervous breakdown. After about half an hour the guard finally spots the plod and unlocks the doors, problem solved. The guys off the train and off to the drunk tank to sleep it off.

All fine, the pax were very understanding of the delay despite no announcements and no word from ANY staff.

THEN...we arrive at Ispwich and wait...and wait...and wait...then a lowly station cleaner boards and informs some of us the trains been cancelled as the guard is traumatized!! Needless to say it didn't go down well, we were already the second from last train to Norwich that night. Plenty of pax kicked off, one dispatcher got punched and the rest got abused.

Good and fun night for Greater Anglia! Funnily enough I have never seen that guard since...

12CSVT said:

A

Maybe it it about time that assaulting a front line worker at their workplace carried the same penalty as assaulting a police officer.

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Pleased to say that, it does .... or at least should do. Magistrates Courts in England and Wales have been issued with sentencing guidelines to the effect that assault on any public servant, (which includes police officers), but specifically in relation to transport staff, train conductors, bus drivers etc, would be dealt with with the same gravity.

Clearly, they are only 'guidelines', and it will differ from case to case, but certain magistrates have taken this on board and will impose harsher penalties for assaults on transport staff, than they do for assaults on police officers.

First of all, I sincerely hope the Train Manager is ok?

I'm yet to meet an unpleasant Virgin TM.

I hope the thug involved is severely punished, in fact he/she should be banned from travelling with Virgin & if said person commits the same act of violence again, should be a system wide ban.

As long as you get to go play trains, aye?

'Victim shaming' has been around for eternity - the idea that no person's ill-fortune can ever be deserved has been confused with justice (or perceived justice). This is not justice.

"Maybe he was trying to sell someone an excessively expensive ticket." "Maybe they were being rude." = forum members justifying an assault.

Not too dissimilar to "They were wearing a short skirt." "They were asking for it, I saw it." = rapists justifying rape.

No.