Todmorden Curve

Darren R · 12 Aug 2014

To answer the question regarding the number of extra units required for the new service, this quotation from earlier in the thread:

IrishDave said:
In the May TT, the trains which terminate at Todmorden have a 25-minute turnaround - 85 minutes should be enough to get to Blackburn and back (Hall Royd Jn-Blackburn is currently about 33 minutes on the Blackpool-York) with about a 15-minute turnaround at Blackburn.

Only one extra unit is needed to extend the current Toddy terminators up to Blackburn (and the signalling, of course!

)

As an aside, I would also add that it seems to be mostly 150s currently running the Todmorden trains rather than Pacers. However, I've no idea whether Northern's fiendishly complex rolling stock diagrams will be changed before trains are able to run up to Blackburn via the Curve and return the same way.

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Xenophon PCDGS · 12 Aug 2014

MidnightFlyer said:
I'm not sure how this will work in reality however: I'm certain Rose Grove was also meant to be a calling point, and I'm not sure it was meant to be all stations Todmorden-Man Vic.

When the matter was first put to detailed timetable planning as part of the original bid submission, Rose Grove was said to have a regular service stopping pattern. Was there also not certain weekend-only stops planned for Church and Oswaldtwistle ?

Can someone "in the know" clarify those matters "north of the Copy Pit Line" and also clarify which stations between Todmorden and Manchester Victoria will also see stops made there, as Littleborough was a borderline decision at that time of bid planning.

MidnightFlyer · 12 Aug 2014

That's how I remember it: Blackburn, Church (Sundays only), Accy, Rose Grove, Burnley Manchester Road, Todmorden, Littleborough (debated) and Rochdale.

I can't imagine there being another recast to move the stops onto the Bradford services again (assuming poor intervals at Castleton etc), but you never know. Perhaps Rose Grove was dropped since the Colne-Blackpool Souths were retimed and the viable connections went?

158756 · 12 Aug 2014

Graham Jones MP received an email from Lancashire County Council last month (available in full on his website) which gave 4 reasons why the service might well be delayed again.
The basic points were

1) Signalling not commissioned
2) No train- suggestion that Liverpool-Manchester electrification isn't going to be ready on time.
3) Northern not having trained sufficient train crew.
4) Complications with the funding agreement due to commencement of new franchise.

4 May well have been sorted by now, 3 seems incredible- northern weren't just told about it recently, it reads like if there was a train, funding and signalling, northern still wouldn't run it till next May anyway.

WatcherZero · 13 Aug 2014

To 3) Northern have had to recruit and train an extra crew to expand their roster to operate the service as they didnt have enough existing crews. So yes theyve known and planned for the requirement for over a year.

Xenophon PCDGS · 13 Aug 2014

158756 said:
It reads like if there was a train, funding and signalling, Northern still wouldn't run it till next May anyway.

Well, if nothing else, this particular thread looks likely to have been granted another long period of time for views to be expressed upon it until the service actually runs.

Geeves · 13 Aug 2014

In regards to point 3. Northern have plenty of new drivers in training but they will learn the important core routes before they are sent out to the wilds of Burnley. The current crew at Vic and Wigan cannot be released without cancelling services. There are only two trains per hour for drivers and guards to learn the Copy Pit, so unless they find a spare unit, aka a ghost run its going to be hard to learn. The signals at the other end of the curve are not commissioned so where do you turn the trains?

What I imagine will happen is that once the stock is released from the Liverpool - Airports they will have a ghost train running ECS after arrival at Tod to Blackburn and back, route learning and testing signals which are meant to be sorted at the December shut down.

pemma · 13 Aug 2014

thealexweb said:
Does this mean Bolton can make use of both of the 'spare' DMUs that the 319s are displacing from December?

I don't know but remember other routes are in desperate need of extra capacity as well.

Also with it being Sprinters released it could well be that the Sprinters go on to busy Pacer diagrams and with Pacers then being used for strengthening so that more than 2 diagrams get extra capacity.

thealexweb · 13 Aug 2014

jcollins said:
I don't know but remember other routes are in desperate need of extra capacity as well.

Also with it being Sprinters released it could well be that the Sprinters go on to busy Pacer diagrams and with Pacers then being used for strengthening so that more than 2 diagrams get extra capacity.

I am aware that most of Northern Rail routes are suffering from overcrowding but the routes through Bolton are at the front of the queue right now because we are still trying to get back to where we were before TPE Scotland's services ended. Even before last year overcrowding through Bolton was awful so to get things back to being as bad as last year does not seem that unfair to me.

pemma · 13 Aug 2014

thealexweb said:
I am aware that most of Northern Rail routes are suffering from overcrowding but the routes through Bolton are at the front of the queue right now because we are still trying to get back to where we were before TPE Scotland's services ended. Even before last year overcrowding through Bolton was awful so to get things back to being as bad as last year does not seem that unfair to me.

While I don't know what every line is like I'm not sure the Bolton corridor is the worse. The worse example I know about (which has existed since the December 08 timetable change) is the 07:17 Manchester-Chester. More recently the overcrowding has been made worse by subsided school/college buses being withdrawn and Barclays doing more training courses at their Radbrooke Hall site. In school term time it records an average maximum load of 278 on a 2 car DMU with the next service not being until an hour later. I've not seen any figures worse than that and where they are in-line with those figures it's usually a lot less than an hour between services, the loading figures I've seen for the non-strengthened services on the Bolton line only have one diagram including loadings of at least 200 which is probably the one set to get the extra capacity. (Just to clarify I don't know the figures for all Bolton corridor services just the a few of the ones TfGM have stated are in need of strengthening.)

Class 170101 · 13 Aug 2014

To 4) it may have also reflected in discussions for the franchise and as such Northern didn't do as much as they should on the training front.

As for training of train crew with ghost trains can this not be done in the off peak / weekends. Even I can't believe that Northern use all their units between the peaks or mainatin every single stabled unit.

Baxenden Bank · 13 Aug 2014

158756 said:
They might be getting annoyed that their buses will be at least 18 months old when the rail service starts, rather than brand new as they would have been had the trains started running last December as we were originally told. Still they have a frequent service, cheap fares, decent legroom and free Wi-Fi. I'm not convinced many of their passengers will switch to the train, off-peak at least.

I suppose the new service will be of use to people who live close to Manchester Road Station and with a destination close to Victoria Station. Otherwise the bus will still have the time advantage for people along the X43 route when door-to-door times are considered.

Similarly with the X41 from Accrington.

I won't be taking a bus from Baxenden to Accrington to then take the train the long way round via Burnley to Manchester when the X41 goes past the front door every 30 minutes whilst the train will only run once an hour. And pensioners go free on the bus. And the bus goes much closer to Piccadilly station for 'the south', or Stoke-on-Trent in my case.

OK, I'll perhaps do it the once to get the new curve, but no more than that. :lol:

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Paul Sidorczuk said:
What exactly is the cause of the Accrington speed restriction and are there any measures that could help in this matter ?

The viaduct itself is reverse curved and seems aligned to best serve the former Manchester - Accrington - Burnley route - via Baxenden Bank. Thus there is a rather severe reverse curve on the surviving route. Enjoy the squeals from the wheels on a Pacer to Colne.

Accrington Station used to have four platforms, the two remaining platforms and two in the vicinity of the new station building (oh so trendy eco friendly!) and the Tesco Store. Both curved sharply away from the junction apex. The footbridge is half of its former self, the Stubbins line platforms and their half of the footbridge having been removed.

I suppose, had it been felt necessary, the whole lot could have been re-aligned in the 1960's / 70's when the whole triangle of railway land was undeveloped. Nowadays, Tesco is in the way.

edwin_m · 14 Aug 2014

Removing the Accrington speed restriction would involve a major realignment of the viaduct though the town itself. As all trains stop there the time penalty of the restriction isn't as much as if there were non-stop trains.

wasi · 14 Aug 2014

The whole thing is an absolute shambles thats for sure.

I visited friends in Burnley over the weekend and thought I would have a trip to Manchester Road station to see how it was looking.

To my complete amazement, it looks 100% finished and yet STILL closed?!?!

mirodo · 15 Aug 2014

wasi said:
The whole thing is an absolute shambles thats for sure.

I visited friends in Burnley over the weekend and thought I would have a trip to Manchester Road station to see how it was looking.

To my complete amazement, it looks 100% finished and yet STILL closed?!?!

It looked about 95% finished when I was there in mid-May. What's taking them so long?

Joseph_Locke · 15 Aug 2014

wasi said:
The whole thing is an absolute shambles thats for sure.

I visited friends in Burnley over the weekend and thought I would have a trip to Manchester Road station to see how it was looking.

To my complete amazement, it looks 100% finished and yet STILL closed?!?!

mirodo said:
It looked about 95% finished when I was there in mid-May. What's taking them so long?

maybe this post might help? Signalling design is pretty hard to see.

Deerfold · 15 Aug 2014

Joseph_Locke said:
maybe this post might help? Signalling design is pretty hard to see.

Surely that's a different issue to the delay of the station upgrade (scheduled to be complete by March this year according to Burnley council.

http://www.burnley.gov.uk/news/grou...w-£23-million-burnley-manchester-road-station

There are trains running through Burnley Machester Road even before the new service starts.

mirodo · 15 Aug 2014

Joseph_Locke said:
maybe this post might help? Signalling design is pretty hard to see.

The issues with the signalling at the Burnley end of the curve don't explain why the new station building (comprising of waiting room, ticket office and presumably toilet facilities) and car park are fenced off and inaccessible despite being seemingly complete.

Edit: beaten to it!

spongsdad · 15 Aug 2014

This is a story that just keeps on giving. I am reluctant to state that "These are the known facts", because there are so many loose ends and so little "information". What seems incontrovertible is the following.
1) During the 20 or so weeks of the Holme Tunnel blockade, Network Rail was unable to complete the signalling work to allow use of the restored curve. Indeed, several weekend possessions were necessary to get the partial signalling that we apparently have now.
2) Network Rail can't gain access to complete the work until February 2015 because (it is reported) that paragon of efficency and service, Northern Rail, don't want to cause disruption for their customers.
3) Crew training cannot take place until Northern grant access to NR to complete the signalling
4) Even if the signalling were ready tomorrow, services can't operate because of no/insufficient rolling stock.
As a mere layman, though not quite a complete ignoramus, this whole farrago creates a distinct impression that the proposal to reopen the Todmorden Curve came as a complete surprise to NR and Northern and that frankly, they would rather forget about the whole idea.
Oh, and in the meantime, there are pristine new facilities at Burnley Manchester Road that the punters can't use because nobody can be bothered to open/staff them.
It's not much of an advert on how to run a railway, is it?
PS I trust that the Watford Junction blockades will come to a speedier and more successful conclusion!

phil8715 · 15 Aug 2014

It's been a complete shambles. If this had been in the South or South East, they would've made sure it was finished and had available trains to run over the route. From what I'm led to believe it's going to be May next year because they need to put 3 signals in for the curve. Also will the trains stop at Rishton?

muddythefish · 15 Aug 2014

spongsdad said:
This is a story that just keeps on giving. I am reluctant to state that "These are the known facts", because there are so many loose ends and so little "information". What seems incontrovertible is the following.
1) During the 20 or so weeks of the Holme Tunnel blockade, Network Rail was unable to complete the signalling work to allow use of the restored curve. indeed, several weekend possessions were necessary to get the partial signalling that we apparently have now.
2) Network Rail can't gain access to complete the work until February 2015 because (it is reported) that paragon of efficency and service, Northern Rail, don't want to cause disruption for their customers.
3) Crew training cannot take place until Northern grant access to NR to complete the signalling
4) Even if the signalling were ready tomorrow, services can't operate because of no/insufficient rolling stock.
As a mere layman, though not quite a complete ignoramus, this whole farrago creates a distinct impression that the proposal to reopen the Todmorden Curve came as a complete surprise to NR and Northern and that frankly, they would rather forget about the whole idea.
Oh, and in the meantime, there are pristine new facilities at Burnley Manchester Road that the punters can't use because nobody can be bothered to open/staff them.
It's not much of an advert on how to run a railway, is it.
PS I trust that the Watford Junction blockades will come to a speedier and more successful conclusion!

Fragmented, dysfunctional, costly, a shambles. Sums up the whole privatised railway.

Darren R · 15 Aug 2014

spongsdad said:
....the proposal to reopen the Todmorden Curve came as a complete surprise to NR and Northern...

That's the problem though - to at least some extent it was a surprise. Reopening the chord wasn't a DfT or Network Rail scheme - it was part of a wider urban regeneration plan for the area. The local councils bid for part of a pot of money from the Treasury and Dept for Communities & Local Government (or whatever silly name it's got this week!) Northern weren't involved at all. If the franchising system hadn't gone completely to pot because of the WCML franchise fiasco, Northern would have ceased running the trains long before the curve reopened. The new service would have been included in the spec for the next franchise. Network Rail were only involved in the plan in a peripheral way - checking that the reinstatement was feasible and so forth. And to be fair, when the reopening was confirmed, it took pretty much everyone by surprise that it was actually going to happen!

When putting the bid together, it doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone involved to give any thought to the not insignificant matter of actually running the trains. What they were bidding for was Capital Expenditure. Actually running trains is a completely different pot of cash - a pot of cash that the bidders didn't have access to as part of the bid.

We just don't do joined-up Government in this country: that's where it always goes wrong.

Sox · 16 Aug 2014

Some interesting and insightful posts.

I get the slight impression of a possible fit of pique by NR, i.e. someone had the temerity to reopen a part of their network without their full buy in (nobody likes to be told what to do).

Darren R · 16 Aug 2014

Sox said:
Some interesting and insightful posts.

I get the slight impression of a possible fit of pique by NR, i.e. someone had the temerity to reopen a part of their network without their full buy in (nobody likes to be told what to do).

Prior to the announcement that the Curve had got the go-ahead, Network Rail had been examining various options for the Calder Valley route. At the western end passenger numbers between Manchester and Todmorden were forecast to grow to a point where extra services were going to be needed, and a number of options were looked at - all of which required infrastructure improvements. The the Curve reopening was announced - and Network Rail got the infrastructure improvements but someone else was paying for them. I would guess they thought of that as something of a result!

Sox · 17 Aug 2014

Does seem odd though that NR, seemingly initially, only ordered enough signalling for the trains to run in one direction. How did they envisage the trains would get back to their original destination?

Seem like a bit of a cock up, once people start chucking in smoke screening statements like "safely operate trains" (as if there was an alternative to run "dangerous trains") into official press releases I smell a rat.

A spokesman for Network Rail said: The new track for the Todmorden Curve was built earlier this year and part of the signalling required to safely operate trains on the line has been installed allowing services to run in one direction. To complete the final signalling stage, and allow trains to run in both directions, we need to close the line for a short period of time which will mean disrupting services and passengers. We have been working with Northern Rail to agree a time to do this which meets the requirements of both organisations. It is proposed that the signalling work is completed by February 2015 with the line open fully in time for the timetable change in May.

http://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/weird/more-delays-for-burnley-manchester-train-link-1-6787205

Llama · 17 Aug 2014

spongsdad said:
3) Crew training cannot take place until Northern grant access to NR to complete the signalling

Route learning could start tomorrow if it needed to. Crew would obviously need to be trained before the service starts so whether the remaining minor signalling alterations at Stansfield Hall Jn are done or not has no bearing on training. The Blackpool-Yorks would be used for route learning purposes.

Joseph_Locke · 17 Aug 2014

Sox said:
Does seem odd though that NR, seemingly initially, only ordered enough signalling for the trains to run in one direction. How did they envisage the trains would get back to their original destination?

If I understand the tale of woe correctly, the scheme was originally a third-party one (from NR's point of view) so probably didn't go through the "best" development route for a project of this size.

The NR Asset Managers were then faced with a completed design they hadn't seen before and which didn't align with their (then new) investment policies, so the design had to be re-done at the 11th hour. Whilst track and civils can cope with this kind of late change, signalling detailed design process is a lot more involved and in the time available not all of it got revised. So one way works, the other doesn't.

This project has been (even from my very limited second-hand involvement with it and in context with the scope of works) a bit of a mess.

30907 · 17 Aug 2014

phil8715 said:
Also will the trains stop at Rishton?

Not that I've heard.

edwin_m · 17 Aug 2014

Sounds to me as if something was found after installation to be non-compliant with one of the many standards and isn't allowed to be used until it is sorted.

Hebden Bridger · 18 Aug 2014

wasi said:
The whole thing is an absolute shambles thats for sure.

I visited friends in Burnley over the weekend and thought I would have a trip to Manchester Road station to see how it was looking.

To my complete amazement, it looks 100% finished and yet STILL closed?!?!

Possibly there's no money to staff the station until the agreement between lancashire County Council and Northern rail is signed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

spongsdad said:
This is a story that just keeps on giving. I am reluctant to state that "These are the known facts", because there are so many loose ends and so little "information". What seems incontrovertible is the following.
1) During the 20 or so weeks of the Holme Tunnel blockade, Network Rail was unable to complete the signalling work to allow use of the restored curve. Indeed, several weekend possessions were necessary to get the partial signalling that we apparently have now.
2) Network Rail can't gain access to complete the work until February 2015 because (it is reported) that paragon of efficency and service, Northern Rail, don't want to cause disruption for their customers.
3) Crew training cannot take place until Northern grant access to NR to complete the signalling
4) Even if the signalling were ready tomorrow, services can't operate because of no/insufficient rolling stock.
As a mere layman, though not quite a complete ignoramus, this whole farrago creates a distinct impression that the proposal to reopen the Todmorden Curve came as a complete surprise to NR and Northern and that frankly, they would rather forget about the whole idea.
Oh, and in the meantime, there are pristine new facilities at Burnley Manchester Road that the punters can't use because nobody can be bothered to open/staff them.
It's not much of an advert on how to run a railway, is it?
PS I trust that the Watford Junction blockades will come to a speedier and more successful conclusion!

Well its not, but LCC are the project managers and it is up to them to co-ordinate the completion of separate contracts with Network Rail and Northern Rail. They must have known Network Rail's work wasn't complete in May.

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