Moorthorpe to Penistone Season

Jdrowlands · 29 Aug 2014

I'm not sure if this goes here but I'll give it a shot anyway.

This week, I started commuting between Penistone and Huddersfield.

To cover my journey, I bought a Penistone - Moorthorpe season which according to the National Routeing Guide and Journey Planners is valid via Huddersfield and Leeds, but today I've been told by the guard that it is not valid because the RPI who checked my ticket yesterday flagged it up and, I quote "we checked it with our inspectors in Leeds" and despite being shown as a permitted route in the routeing guide it is only available on routes within South Yorkshire as it "is a South Yorkshire subsidised fare" - not that this restriction is detailed anywhere I can see.

I produced an itinerary from NRES showing a through ticket from Moorthorpe to Penistone as valid via Huddersfield, but was told "oh, that's just an itinerary" which had no effect on the validity, despite the instructions printed in the routeing guide.

I ended up having to buy an SDR to avoid an argument. Any advice on how I should proceed? I see no reason why my ticket should not be valid - indeed, it even opens the barriers at Huddersfield

RailUK Forums

Solent&Wessex · 29 Aug 2014

Jdrowlands said:
I'm not sure if this goes here but I'll give it a shot anyway.

This week, I started commuting between Penistone and Huddersfield.

To cover my journey, I bought a Penistone - Moorthorpe season which according to the National Routeing Guide and Journey Planners is valid via Huddersfield and Leeds, but today I've been told by the guard that it is not valid because the RPI who checked my ticket yesterday flagged it up and, I quote "we checked it with our inspectors in Leeds" and despite being shown as a permitted route in the routeing guide it is only available on routes within South Yorkshire as it "is a South Yorkshire subsidised fare" - not that this restriction is detailed anywhere I can see.

I produced an itinerary from NRES showing a through ticket from Moorthorpe to Penistone as valid via Huddersfield, but was told "oh, that's just an itinerary" which had no effect on the validity, despite the instructions printed in the routeing guide.

I ended up having to buy an SDR to avoid an argument. Any advice on how I should proceed? I see no reason why my ticket should not be valid - indeed, it even opens the barriers at Huddersfield

Using my phone, which is a bit fiddly, whilst NRES says that it is valid, I don't think the paper based routeing guide agrees, once fares checks and appropriate routeing points are checked. Could you explain how you calculated it to be valid via Leeds and Huddersfield?

Haywain · 29 Aug 2014

Jdrowlands said:
Any advice on how I should proceed? I see no reason why my ticket should not be valid - indeed, it even opens the barriers at Huddersfield

The fact that the ticket opens the barriers does not prove that it is valid. It could equally prove that the barriers have been badly programmed. I will leave it to others to make their judgements over whether your ticket is valid at Huddersfield.

Tetchytyke · 29 Aug 2014

kwvr45 said:
Using my phone, which is a bit fiddly, whilst NRES says that it is valid, I don't think the paper based routeing guide agrees, once fares checks and appropriate routeing points are checked. Could you explain how you calculated it to be valid via Leeds and Huddersfield?

NRES gives the option of travelling via Huddersfield and Leeds, which means that it should be valid. The paper routeing guide does say that National Rail Enquiries is the definitive source of fares validity information, after all

Solent&Wessex · 29 Aug 2014

Arctic Troll said:
NRES gives the option of travelling via Huddersfield and Leeds, which means that it should be valid. The paper routeing guide does say that National Rail Enquiries is the definitive source of fares validity information, after all

Indeed, but certain posters are very quick to point out when NRES does not show something as valid when it should, so I was merely pointing out that in this case it seems that NRES is showing something as valid when it isn't!

My reasoning is this:

Moorthorpe is associated with Doncaster, Pontefract, Swinton and Wakefield.
Wakefield and Pontefract fail the fares check, so we can only use Swinton and Doncaster.

Penistone is associated with Huddersfield and Barnsley. For the throughout journey both pass the fares check.

So, permitted routes are from Moorthorpe to Swinton or Doncaster, then via permitted routes to Huddersfield or Barnsley then to Penistone. As Wakefield and Pontefract fails the fares check any journey must not pass through Wakefield or Pontefract, nor must they double back.

Going via Wakefield and Leeds will not be the shortest route, nor within 3 miles of it.

So, by my reckoning, going via Wakefield and Leeds - or even via Wakefield then direct to Huddersfield, would not be valid, and the NRES journey planner is in error.

furlong · 29 Aug 2014

kwvr45 said:
So, by my reckoning, going via Wakefield and Leeds - or even via Wakefield then direct to Huddersfield, would not be valid, and the NRES journey planner is in error.

(I've not looked into this particular case, but)
When you find a situation like that, after double-checking for any easements you might have missed, the next step is to look at an older version of the routeing guide and fares data to see if it used to be valid.

Much (but not yet all) of the information you need to do this is online at www.farehistory.info

Some online journey planners do not seem to follow the routeing guide rules rigidly and make allowances for validity that might have been removed inadvertently.

maniacmartin · 29 Aug 2014

kvwr45 says we can consider mapped routes between routeing points Doncaster and Huddersfield . This is maps DH, DO+YN

Map DH basically follows the Grand Central route via Pontefract. Thus the route would be cumbersome:
Moorthorpe - Fitzwilliam - Doncaster - Pontefract Monkhill - Wakefield Kirkgate - Mirfield - Huddersfield - Penistone

Similarly, DO+YN allows travel via (Fitzwilliam) Doncaster, Pontefract, Castleford, Leeds - Huddersfield

Both of these routes have no double-backs.
The SYPTE subsidies don't affect the permitted routes.

I believe it is valid to use between Penistone and Huddersfield. Expect this loophole to be closed soon though.

Solent&Wessex · 29 Aug 2014

maniacmartin said:
kvwr45 says we can consider mapped routes between routeing points Doncaster and Huddersfield . This is maps DH, DO+YN

Map DH basically follows the Grand Central route via Pontefract. Thus the route would be cumbersome:
Moorthorpe - Fitzwilliam - Doncaster - Pontefract Monkhill - Wakefield Kirkgate - Mirfield - Huddersfield - Penistone

Similarly, DO+YN allows travel via (Fitzwilliam) Doncaster, Pontefract, Castleford, Leeds - Huddersfield

Both of these routes have no double-backs.
The SYPTE subsidies don't affect the permitted routes.

I believe it is valid to use between Penistone and Huddersfield. Expect this loophole to be closed soon though.

But the routeing guide instructions say that once a routeing point has failed the fares check, you cannot take any journey which passes through those routeing points. The route you describe passes through Pontefract and Wakefield and would therefore not be permitted.

Deerfold · 29 Aug 2014

kwvr45 said:
But the routeing guide instructions say that once a routeing point has failed the fares check, you cannot take any journey which passes through those routeing points.

I can't see anywhere it says that.

You can't use it as a Routeing Point and thus use the maps associated with that point.

Solent&Wessex · 29 Aug 2014

Deerfold said:
I can't see anywhere it says that.

You can't use it as a Routeing Point and thus use the maps associated with that point.

My interpretation of the instructions in Section F, Page 6 are that once a routeing point has been eliminated for failing the fares check, any journeys from the other routeing points cannot then pass through the eliminated routeing points.

maniacmartin · 29 Aug 2014

It looks like this is another case where the NRG in Detail contains extra restrictions in its examples that are not detailed in the NRG Instructions document.

Jdrowlands · 29 Aug 2014

I've just asked a friend who works in a ticket office and the route is shown as valid on the internal Journey Planner software. I have e-mailed Northern's Customer Relations after getting a load of tosh from them on Twitter and I am waiting for their response.

yorkie · 29 Aug 2014

It's valid.

Even if it wasn't valid in the Routeing Guide (which it is), the fact you can get an itinerary for it "validates" it.

Northern need DfT approval, and Passenger Focus must also be consulted, before they can change the permitted routes.

A Season bought at current terms retains the validity for the duration, irrespective of any changes made.

The ticket you were requested to buy needs refunding, if they refuse, take it as high as you need to.

Solent&Wessex · 29 Aug 2014

yorkie said:
It's valid.

Even if it wasn't valid in the Routeing Guide (which it is), the fact you can get an itinerary for it "validates" it.

Northern need DfT approval, and Passenger Focus must also be consulted, before they can change the permitted routes.

A Season bought at current terms retains the validity for the duration, irrespective of any changes made.

The ticket you were requested to buy needs refunding, if they refuse, take it as high as you need to.

I am not disputing that as it stands it is valid, as you correctly point out the fact that NRES offers a journey means it is valid.

However, I argue that based on the routeing guide instructions section F Page 6 it probably ought not to be valid. Unless you are saying that the contents of section F are not applicable?

Deerfold · 29 Aug 2014

kwvr45 said:
My interpretation of the instructions in Section F, Page 6 are that once a routeing point has been eliminated for failing the fares check, any journeys from the other routeing points cannot then pass through the eliminated routeing points.

I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but which examples are you looking at?

maniacmartin · 29 Aug 2014

I must admit I wasn´t aware of this paragraph in the NRG in detail. Here it is in a worked example for a different journey:

NRG in detail said:
F6
Next look up the permitted routes bet ween Gloucester Group and Craven Arms and between Newport and Craven Arms on the yellow pages. When tracing these routes on the maps you must avoid Shrewsbury because it is not an appropriate routeing point for this journey. Any routes you can trace successfully on the maps between Gloucester Group and Craven Arms or Newport and Craven Arms avoiding Shrewsbury and without doubling back are permitted routes

I suppose the question is whether the NRG in detail is just some worked examples on the side or whether the examples' methodology form part of the instructions. It is not the only part of the worked example where new rules appear that aren´t in the instructions, and it looks like the journey planning software doesn´t know of this rule.

yorkie, I don´t think DfT approval will be needed to remove such a cumbersome ´clearly erroneous´ route from the guide in any case.

Jdrowlands · 29 Aug 2014

maniacmartin said:
yorkie, I don´t think DfT approval will be needed to remove such a cumbersome ´clearly erroneous´ route from the guide in any case.

Is it really such a cumbersome route to go via Leeds when travelling from Moorthorpe to Penistone? When putting the route in the Journey Planner, via Leeds appears without selecting any 'via' points and takes only 6 minutes longer than going via Meadowhall. Plus, it gives passengers two opportunities per hour to make the journey rather than just one, since Penistone line services run only once per hour in each direction. The relevant maps are SY+TP, using the routeing points Huddersfield Group and Swinton (South Yorkshire).

maniacmartin · 29 Aug 2014

The route via Leeds that NRE makes is not the same route via Leeds that is the route via Leeds that the Routeing Guide

Jdrowlands · 29 Aug 2014

As kwvr45 notes:

Moorthorpe is associated with Doncaster, Pontefract, Swinton and Wakefield.
Wakefield and Pontefract fail the fares check, so we can only use Swinton and Doncaster.

Penistone is associated with Huddersfield and Barnsley. For the throughout journey both pass the fares check.

Therefore, the permitted routes are shown on the maps for journeys between between Swinton and Huddersfield, Swinton and Barnsley, Doncaster and Huddersfield, and Doncaster and Barnsley.

Looking at the first option - Swinton to Huddersfield - we have the following routes available:

SY - allows (Moorthorpe)-Swinton-Wakefield-Barnsley-Penistone and (Moorthorpe)-Swinton-Meadowhall-Barnsley-Penistone but no travel to Huddersfield since this would result in doubling back.

SY+TP - allows (Moorthorpe)-Wakefield (direct or via Barnsley)-Huddersfield (direct or via Leeds)-Penistone.

WK - allows (Moorthorpe)-Wakefield-Huddersfield-Penistone and also Moorthorpe-Meadowhall-Barnsley-Wakefield-Huddersfield-Penistone.

That's if I'm understanding the routeing guide correctly... ?!

maniacmartin · 29 Aug 2014

Jdrowlands, you are missing something important:
When you are tracing a route on the map, you must trace it between the two approprirate routeing points. Then add in the shortest route between the origin/destination on the ticket and itś appropriate routeing point.
The overall route must have no double backs. If it has a double back, the whole route is invalid, even parts of it that aren part of the double back.

SY - Whole route has double back between Penistone and its appropriate Routeing Point Huddersfield, so whole route is invalid.

SY+TP - You cannot start by going to Wakefield as you looked up the maps for a journey with Swinton as the RP. So your first step has to be the shortest route to Swinton.
This is OK:
--[[route removed]]--
Moorthorpe - Swinton - Meadowhall - Barnsley - (change map) - optionally Leeds - Barnsley -Huddersfield - Penistone
It doesnt pass through any of Moorthorpe´s other RPs so wouldn´t be thwarted by the NRG in detail section F

WK - You cannot start by going to Wakefield as you looked up the maps for a journey with Swinton as the RP. So your first step has to be the shortest route to Swinton.
Moorthorpe - Swinton - Wakefield - Huddersfield - Penistone would be OK though.

This route has the problem described above with the NRG in detail that the routes using Doncaster as an appropriate Routeing Point have, namely that you pass through another of Moorthorpeś Routeing Points (Wakefield) on the mapped route.

Jdrowlands · 29 Aug 2014

Right, that makes more sense and I see where I'm going wrong now. I wonder why the NRE journey planner considers Moorthorpe - Leeds - Huddersfield - Penistone as valid. Using the first route you mentioned under SY+TP would result in a double back, since travelling direct from Swinton to Wakefield requires passing through Moorthorpe again.

Still, an itinerary is an itinerary - and since my journey was verified by the Planner it can be considered as valid. I'm currently waiting for a response from Northern.

yorkie · 29 Aug 2014

maniacmartin said:
I suppose the question is whether the NRG in detail is just some worked examples on the side or whether the examples' methodology form part of the instructions.

The former, I believe, as otherwise the titles for the documents are erroneous.

maniacmartin said:
yorkie, I don´t think DfT approval will be needed to remove such a cumbersome ´clearly erroneous´ route from the guide in any case.

DfT approval is required to remove any permitted route, but it would be granted because their priority is to reduce subsidy to Northern and to make passengers pay as much as possible for their journeys, and push people away from rail as a mode of transport.

The idea that people should have two sensible journey opportunities per hour to make rail viable, will not wash with the mandarins at the DfT who would much rather people took to the roads.

SickyNicky · 30 Aug 2014

maniacmartin said:
Jdrowlands, you are missing something important:
When you are tracing a route on the map, you must trace it between the two approprirate routeing points. Then add in the shortest route between the origin/destination on the ticket and itś appropriate routeing point.
The overall route must have no double backs. If it has a double back, the whole route is invalid, even parts of it that aren part of the double back.

Although it doesn't seem to be documented anywhere, I don't think this is the way journey planners work. They seem to only apply double back checks between the origin and destination routeing points, ignoring the journey from the origin to the first routeing point and from the last routeing point to the destination.

Instead, the fares check rule seems to be used to allow or disallow routeing points. If the check passes, double backs to the routeing point are also allowed. On the face of it, this seems reasonable.

Paul Kelly · 30 Aug 2014

I agree with SickyNicky. On the face of it it seems somewhat surprising but is also quite logical and consistent, and allows lots of routes that would have historically been considered reasonable, where there is a short doubleback to an origin routeing point at the start of a long journey, when the fares to the destination from both the origin and origin routeing point are identical.

However I also agree with kwvr45 that mapped routes may not pass through Routeing Points that have previously failed the fares check.

Jdrowlands · 30 Aug 2014

To muddy the waters further (what fun!) we can also see from the NFM64 data on farehistory.info that, in the eyes of journey planners, Wakefield Group does pass the fares check - although this rule regarding which set of fares data to use isn't listed in the Routeing Guide. This probably explains why every journey planner allows a route via Huddersfield and Leeds.

Taking advice from their Twitter feed, I also phoned Northern this morning, and the person I spoke to at Customer Relations agrees that my proposed route is valid. He said that he'd try and get the message round to staff, and told me he'd follow it up via e-mail, although I've not heard anything yet. I'm still rather nervous about making the journey again on Monday, mind - it's not nice when a member of staff insists your journey is not valid when it is, and you are forced to buy a new ticket to avoid an argument.

yorkie · 31 Aug 2014

Yes, we all forgot that fares at the time of privatisation can give routes a 'protected' status, and that the fares check is taken from NFM64 for this reason.

If a route was valid under BR's "reasonable" rule, that route has protected status and should not be removed due to recent price rises.

Huddersfield-Leeds was £2.30 SDS, £4.60 SDR, £2.40 CDR.
Penistone-Moorthorpe was £3.40 SDS, £5.50 SDR, £3.70 CDR.

If TPE/Northern now want to charge a premium for the latter, that does not invalidate the route. Passenger Focus must, legally, be consulted and should be objecting to any proposed loss of one of the two journey opportunities per hour. The DfT would have to accept such a change was justified.

I'd write to your MP about it to pre-empt any attempt by TPE/Northern to request permission to get the route removed.

Also don't forget that the DfT and Passenger Focus are subject to FOI, so if it does get removed, a copy of all correspondence regarding the change can be requested.

The idea that TOCs can just decide to charge a premium for a bit of track and then make other journeys unviable is absurd and is not acceptable. We need to send a clear message that the days of the TOCs getting away with illegal Routeing Guide changes are over.

bb21 · 31 Aug 2014

Unless I am missing something, Wakefield (NLC 0444) fails fares check even for NFM64 fares.

PNS - MRP SDS £2.80
PNS - 0444 SDS £3.30

PNS: Penistone
MRP: Moorthorpe
SDS: Standard/Anytime Day Single

Jdrowlands · 31 Aug 2014

Are you sure you are reading the right data?

Penistone to Moorthorpe SDS, £3.40
Penistone to Wakefield Stns SDS, £3.30

bb21 · 31 Aug 2014

Jdrowlands said:
Are you sure you are reading the right data?

Penistone to Moorthorpe SDS, £3.40
Penistone to Wakefield Stns SDS, £3.30

Hmm, not sure what I was looking at there.

Jdrowlands · 1 Sep 2014

Well, I used my season ticket again today and the guard passed it in both directions without saying a word. I don't know if a brief regarding the validity has been issued or not, but hopefully today is a sign of things to come.

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