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Potential Prosecution

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091ahsrn

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On the 29th of August, I was stopped by an inspector at London Bridge for not carrying a ticket.

I had been travelling on the train from Dartford towards London and boarded the train without purchasing a ticket. The train was due to leave and I was worried I would miss it, so intended to buy a ticket from the conducter.

I was extremely tired when I boarded the train. I had been travelling for nearly three days from northern Italy with little food or sleep whilst carrying a large heavy pack. This resulted in a lack of mental clarity and in actions that were completely unnecessary.

On leaving the train, I realised I didn't have a ticket. The correct thing to have done at this point would be to have explained my situation, however I wasn't thinking clearly. Instead, I told two of the staff on duty that I had forgotten my ticket on the train and was directed to the inspector. I panicked, worried that I would be punished further for lying and attempted to leave the area without talking to the inspector.

The inspector stopped me and during our conversation I became increasingly confused. I understood that I was to pay a penalty fare but thought I was agreeing to pay it by mail. Instead, I signed a witness statement which is inaccurate on a number of points. It has the wrong station of departure. I had definite means of paying both before and after travelling. Most importantly, I did not understand the caution (I was asked if I understood what a caution was and thought it was directly related to a penalty fare) or that this could lead to prosecution.

The fare from Dartford is £8.20. I had means to pay both this and the penalty fare and proof to show this.

It is a mystery to me why I didn't pay the fare and penalty fee then and there; I was at a point of extreme exhaustion and wanted only to go home.

My question is, is there anything that I can do - such as sending a letter with proof of ability to pay - that will avoid this going any further and result in just a penalty fare?

Any help would be hugely appreciated.
 
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Clip

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Have you recieved anything from Southeastern yet regarding this matter? Without knowing what they are planning to do with you its very hard to give any advice.

There are plenty of threads on here about people not being in the right frame of mind and forgetting things,its very popular, theres a couple on this very page, take a look at them.
 

091ahsrn

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Thanks for the quick reply, Clip.

I haven't received anything yet but am expecting them to pursue prosecution. My witness statement shows an attempt to deceive (as does any cctv of my passing through the barriers) as well as a claim that I did not have means to pay fare or penalty fare before travelling.

I have proof that I did have means to pay and wonder if I alert them of this I can avoid costly investigations and potential prosecution.

I've been reading some of the other accounts and see how weak a defense my state of mind will be. I'm just hoping to resolve it before it goes any further.

Again, any advice would be great
 

455driver

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A couple of questions if I may-
If the statement is inaccurate why did you sign it?
Is the statement inaccurate because you gave the wrong information (because you were tired) or because the RPI wrote it down wrong?
How did it take 3 days to get from Italy, did you walk it?
Did you manage to give the right name and address?


2 further points-
1/ You were so tired you couldnt remember to buy a ticket but you had the presence of mind to lie your ar5e off.
2/ you missed out that the Inspector was rude/intimidating but got most of the other bits in there so well done.
 

CC 72100

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Just done a random search for Dartford > London Bridge on a Friday in September - there are 8 trains per hour between 15:00 and 16:00, I don't think you'll get much sympathy from SouthEastern if you're claiming that you were worrying about missing it..... I'm sorry, it sounds as if something doesn't stack up here.
 
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091ahsrn

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A couple of questions if I may-
If the statement is inaccurate why did you sign it?
I was told that if I didn't sign it then his colleague would and things would become much more complicated.

Is the statement inaccurate because you gave the wrong information (because you were tired) or because the RPI wrote it down wrong?
I gave the wrong information.
How did it take 3 days to get from Italy, did you walk it?
I was hitchhiking through the Alps in Europe and had hitch-hiked back up, before getting a ferry from Calais and a lift from Dover to Dartford.

Did you manage to give the right name and address?

Name and address were provided by my passport.

2 further points-
1/ You were so tired you couldnt remember to buy a ticket but you had the presence of mind to lie your ar5e off.
2/ you missed out that the Inspector was rude/intimidating but got most of the other bits in there so well done.

1/ I agree and am regretful. I honestly offer no excuse for my actions.
2/ The inspector was neither rude nor intimidating. He was doing his job and it was my own fault for making things so complicated.
 

091ahsrn

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Just done a random search for Dartford > London Bridge on a Friday in September - there are 8 trains per hour between 15:00 and 16:00, I don't think you'll get much sympathy from SouthEastern if you're claiming that you were worrying about missing it..... I'm sorry, it sounds as if something doesn't stack up here.

I walked into the station, asked whoever was on duty when the next train would leave to London and ran to catch it. I did not stop to check when the next train would be.
 

bb21

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I don't think sending them proof of ability to pay is going to have much impact. What this essentially boils down to is whether you will end up with a charge under the Regulation of Railways Act. The inability to pay is proof for intent to avoid paying the correct fare, but given that you claim you got "confused" during the conversation, chances are that they would have figured out that you were lying about having bought a ticket but lost it too, solid proof of the intent.

That said, I don't think it will hurt if you send them this proof of available funds, but I wouldn't put too much hope on it being useful in any way.

As already pointed out, the argument that you were worried about missing your train is unlikely to wash. If you live anywhere near Dartford, or travelled there before, you would know that there are plenty of trains from there to central London. Is waiting 10 minutes (or much less time for the majority of the day) for the next train really that big a deal? Many people seem to claim that they got confused, but the train company has heard it all before. Somehow people magically get "confused" when it comes to paying their fares, and somehow it always seems to be trains that have no guards, yet they can all cook up some excuses that are lies when challenged. While I don't know you and have no reason to doubt your story, you must be aware how this whole thing might look to the prosecutors.

I don't think there is much you can do at the moment until you hear back from SouthEastern. Chances are that you will be asked for your version of the events and they would then decide how to proceed next. Being asked to pay a Penalty Fare after the event is highly unlikely.
 

091ahsrn

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Thank you for your response, bb21.

I agree with your conclusion and am hoping now for damage limitation. I intend to send a letter today to Southeastern Trains, RPSS and IPFAS that will correct the mistakes on my witness statement; namely the station of departure and that I did have funds to buy a ticket.

I live in Bristol, not near London and didn't realise they would be so regular. Indeed, I didn't stop to check. Furthermore, I didn't realise that it was a prosecutable offence to travel without a ticket (I always imagined that tickets can be bought prior to or during travel).

It seems that I have managed to take a situation which would have easily been resolved through a penalty fare and made it worse in every way imaginable.

Finally, would any of the volunteers of this forum be able to proof-reader the letter before I send it?

Thank you for all your help with this
 
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southernmanc

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Dartford station entrance has ticket office with 3 windows, (not fully staffed), a gateline which is usually (at peak times and daytime) operated by RPIs, unless the OP asked one of these people then the nearest customer service representative would have been on the platform of departure.
 

Deerfold

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Name and address were provided by my passport.

Have they changed the information in passports? Neither my previous nor my current passport has my address in it (though I'm sure government agencies could probably find out my address at the time I applied).
 

091ahsrn

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Have they changed the information in passports? Neither my previous nor my current passport has my address in it (though I'm sure government agencies could probably find out my address at the time I applied).

My address is written on the back page of my passport
 
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455driver

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I was told that if I didn't sign it then his colleague would and things would become much more complicated.
They ask you to sign it as it proves you gave those answers, not signing it can be construed that the answers were not correct.
I gave the wrong information.
Oops indeed, so you signed a statement which you knew to be false.
I was hitchhiking through the Alps in Europe and had hitch-hiked back up, before getting a ferry from Calais and a lift from Dover to Dartford.
So you did walk, kudos. ;)
Name and address were provided by my passport.
So they know who you are and this was always going to land on your doorstep.
1/ I agree and am regretful. I honestly offer no excuse for my actions.
2/ The inspector was neither rude nor intimidating. He was doing his job and it was my own fault for making things so complicated.
1/ At least you can stand by your error so well done for that, There is still a good chance that this could end reasonably but you need to be completely honest with them and even then there is no guarantee.
2/ I was (trying to be) funny because in most of these threads the RPI was either one or the other of these two.

Wait for the letter from SE (it may take a month or 2), post the relevant info on here for advice and then reply back truthfully to them, there is a long way to go yet and things are still reasonable for a Penalty fare or an offer to cover their costs.
 

091ahsrn

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455driver, thanks for your advice. It's raised my spirits a bit :smile:

I wish I could share your hope for a penalty fare but I'm already preparing myself for worse. I feel really stupid for how I acted and embarrassed by the whole thing - I haven't been in a situation remotely like this before and don't intend to do so again; the feeling is awful.

Even still, there's no point in wallowing on my stupid decisions and am hoping there might be something I can do to help things along the way. For example, it's listed on my witness statement that I traveled from Sidcup instead of Dartford. Is it not worth getting in touch with whoever will be conducting the investigation to make things easier for them?
 
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bb21

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It is very difficult to say how it will pan out because by admitting that you gave them a false origin, you will have effectively admitted to "fare evasion" (it is pretty strong proof of intent to avoid paying the correct fare - else why would you lie about it - as a court might think) and given them all the evidence they need.

That said, provided that it is your first time, most train companies will be willing to settle the matter out of court if you show good attitude and genuine remorse, so this can also play to your advantage rather than waiting for them to find out.

I just realised that we have no idea when the incident took place. If it were only a few days ago then there may not be any point contacting them as the case may not have yet been processed and logged.
 

091ahsrn

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It happened last week, so I hoped that correspondence sent this week with the proper details and references would be in time to support any initial investigation.

Considering the muddled nature of my witness account, I'd prefer to set the record straight as soon as possible. While it may give strong evidence for fare evasion, I believe there is already enough evidence available to pursue this line. Moreover, it's clear that I committed a serious crime even if I did not realise I was doing so at the time. It seems the honest thing to do now would be to admit and apologise... though I worry about the possibility of this leading to a criminal conviction and the ramifications for the rest of my life.

Ultimately, I should have told the truth at the first chance I had and am already paying the price for not doing so in how I feel. I imagine any further delays will only make things worse.
 

bb21

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Yes, honesty is usually the best policy. I am quite impressed with your attitude to own up to what you have done and face the consequences because many people who come here and ask for advice take a completely different approach.

I think if it has been a week, then you could ring them and see. What sometimes happens is that an offer to settle is agreed over the phone if the case is fairly straight forward. It is unlikely if you show genuine remorse for the case to go to court, especially for a first offence.
 

091ahsrn

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Don't be too impressed; had I acted this way to begin with then I wouldn't be here today.

I spoke to South Eastern Railways on Saturday but was told that all queries regarding prosecution and penalty fares must be dealt with by writing to the Revenue Protection Support Services (RPSS) and/or Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (IPFAS).

If you have any other means of communication, I'd be grateful.

As before, thank you for all you help
 

island

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RPSS and IPFAS do not generally deal with matters over the telephone as it tends to lead to he said/she said types of arguments.

How did you get through the ticket barriers at Dartford?
 

jon0844

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Just done a random search for Dartford > London Bridge on a Friday in September - there are 8 trains per hour between 15:00 and 16:00, I don't think you'll get much sympathy from SouthEastern if you're claiming that you were worrying about missing it..... I'm sorry, it sounds as if something doesn't stack up here.

Three days of traveling but suddenly it was vital not to miss a specific train by buying a ticket?!?
 

455driver

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Three days of traveling but suddenly it was vital not to miss a specific train by buying a ticket?!?

He wanted to get to London and didnt think that the trains would be as frequent as they are.
He lives in Bristol where the trains are half hourly most of the days and a train every 8 minutes is unheard of. He is at least genuinely sorry for lying and is showing remorse so lets cut him a bit of slack.

No I am not going soft but can see where he is coming from. ;)
 

CC 72100

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He is at least genuinely sorry for lying and is showing remorse so lets cut him a bit of slack.

No I am not going soft but can see where he is coming from. ;)

Indeed, and fair play for it.
 

Clip

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RPSS and IPFAS do not generally deal with matters over the telephone as it tends to lead to he said/she said types of arguments.

How did you get through the ticket barriers at Dartford?

I must admit that whenever I have had the displeasure of having to visit Dartford during the day the barriers have been open.
 

091ahsrn

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I don't even remember there being barriers but I guess I didn't register them.

I spent a lot of time last night thinking over how I behaved and have written the following letter. I include it here for any comments from members of the forum as well as a lesson for the next person who finds themselves in a similar situation. How I acted was extremely cowardly and I suggest that the next person stops to think about what their actions says about them.

"Dear Sir/Madam,

On the 29th of August, I was stopped by an inspector at London Bridge for not carrying a ticket.

I was travelling from Dartford to London and boarded the train with the intention of buying one from the conductor. When he did not enter my carriage, I did not actively seek him and disembarked at London Bridge without purchasing a ticket. On realising that I did not have a ticket, I acted in a dishonest and cowardly way.

I panicked and told two of the staff on duty that I had forgotten my ticket on the train and was directed to the inspector. Then, worried that I would be punished further for lying, I attempted to leave the area without talking to the inspector.

The inspector stopped me and during our conversation, I did nothing to help clarify the situation. I gave the wrong station, listing Sidcup instead of Dartford, and claimed I had no means to pay for a ticket or penalty fare when I had definite means of paying both. I signed a witness statement, which I now understand can be used as evidence in a court of law, despite knowing these inaccuracies.

On reflection, it is clear that I actively attempted to avoid taking responsibility for my wrong-doing. Had I been honest from the start, then this matter would have been quickly resolved; instead I have made it worse in almost every possible way. I am both embarrassed and regretful for my actions. They have shown a side of me which I did not know I have and which I am ashamed of. In acting in this way, I have let not only myself down but those that take me to be an honest and trust-worthy person.

I was extremely tired after a month of traveling around the Alps. After hitch-hiking for three days from northern Italy with little food or sleep and a large heavy pack, I was not thinking clearly. However, this in no way excuses the way I acted or my foolish attempts to avoid responsibility.

I have never traveled without a ticket before and am a regular user of train services for many years. I understand that it is my duty to buy a ticket and through not buying one, I damage the maintenance and smooth-running of a service that I have previously taken for granted. Furthermore, I understand that neither I nor anyone else has anything to gain from such cowardly behaviour and do not intend to forget this any time soon.

I am truly sorry for my behaviour and the inconvenience it has caused you and am fully prepared to do what's needed to make this right.
"​
 

455driver

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All reads rather well apart from a couple of small errors-
Near the top-
I was travelling from Dartford to London and boarded the train with the intention of buying one from the conductor.
Could read-
I was travelling from Dartford to London and boarded the train with the intention of buying a ticket from the conductor.

And near the bottom
I have never traveled without a ticket before and am a regular user of train services for many years.
Should read-
I have never traveled without a ticket before and I have been a regular user of train services for many years.

Neither of which changes the meaning but they do make it a little easier to read.
 

Clip

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I would also remove this

I was extremely tired after a month of traveling around the Alps. After hitch-hiking for three days from northern Italy with little food or sleep and a large heavy pack, I was not thinking clearly. However, this in no way excuses the way I acted or my foolish attempts to avoid responsibility.

Its not needed and if you are saying it doesnt excuses your actions then theres no need for it to be included.
 

Greenback

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Or you could make it clear that you are not using it as an excuse but trying to explain why your actions were out of character that day.
 

091ahsrn

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Corrected and sent.

I'll update as to what the outcome is.

Thank you to all those that help! :)
 

island

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There is no guard/conductor on most/all services that call at Dartford, FWIW.
 
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