Bolton to get 5th Platform

Y961 XBU · 4 Sep 2014

Just been given this Link, cant see Bolton getting a Rail Link to Scotland tho

http://m.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/1...station_to_get_fifth_platform_back/?ref=fbshr

Elaine O'Flynn said:
All change: Bolton train station to get fifth platform back

A FIFTH platform is set to return to Bolton train station - paving the way for a revival of Scottish services.

The new platform will mean more trains running through the town and would also increase the chances of Manchester to Scotland services returning through the station.

Keith Davies, head of development and regeneration at Bolton Council, revealed the plans as he gave an update to councillors on the progress of the £48 million Bolton Interchange project.

He said: One of the issues that emerged over the last eight to nine months is of platform five...."

The final proposal is dependent on the council and Network Rail receiving the relevant funding.

Bolton train station had a fifth platform until the early 1990s, before the track was concreted over to form a passenger car park.

When completed the new interchange will replace the existing bus station in Moor Lane and connect with the train station via a sky link bridge in Newport Street.

RailUK Forums

Peter Lanky · 4 Sep 2014

Amazing isn't it. There are plans to get more trains travelling through town, and all that many people on this Bolton News editorial can think about is car parking.

graham43404 · 4 Sep 2014

Peter Lanky said:
Amazing isn't it. There are plans to get more trains travelling through town, and all that many people on this Bolton News editorial can think about is car parking.

Whilst I do agree with you, at the same time it is poor that a big town like Bolton will have very little station car parking while at the same time trying to tempt people to ditch the car for the daily commute. Hopefully over the next few years a solution to that particular problem can be made.

Xenophon PCDGS · 4 Sep 2014

All this entails is the reinstatement of the fifth platform that was taken away.

WatcherZero · 4 Sep 2014

graham43404 said:
Whilst I do agree with you, at the same time it is poor that a big town like Bolton will have very little station car parking while at the same time trying to tempt people to ditch the car for the daily commute. Hopefully over the next few years a solution to that particular problem can be made.

I think they would rather as few as possible drove into the centre of bolton and that they used buses or suburban stations instead.

graham43404 · 4 Sep 2014

WatcherZero said:
I think they would rather as few as possible drove into the centre of bolton and that they used buses or suburban stations instead.

The only problems with that philosophy though is that to the east of Bolton, Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley there are no car parks. Only Lostock, Horwich Parkway, Blackrod, Westhoughton and Bromley Cross has car parks, all to the west of the town centre.

Then you have First Manchester buses who are quite simply dire and very unreliable, who have a habit of cancelling early morning services and sometimes missing out part of the route to make up time.

I really think that Bolton needs a proper station car park of the type at Wigan North Western to truly encourage better rail usage.

takeaway · 4 Sep 2014

WatcherZero said:
I think they would rather as few as possible drove into the centre of bolton and that they used buses or suburban stations instead.

However you can forget using the parking facilities at any other local stations after 0730/0800 as they are full.
I wrote to TFGM last year suggesting these facilities should be improved/extended (Lostock, Daisy hill, Horwich & Westhougton) to encourage commuters to avoid the M61/60 (which resembles a car park for two hours each morning) Received a garbled response, which in summary stated Horwich was recently extended, and no plans for any further parking.
Still the trains are grossly overcrowded anyway, so why encourage use of public transport..

hock:

Philip · 4 Sep 2014

I doubt TPE will reinstate Scotland services through Bolton, however the Scotland to London via Birmingham service could be an idea.

Something like:

Preston
Wigan/Chorley
Bolton
Salford
Piccadilly
Wilmslow
Crewe

Linespeed should be improved along the Bolton route along with electrification.

MidnightFlyer · 4 Sep 2014

Doubt VT or the next franchise holder, or indeed anyone using the current route, would like that. Wigan and Warrington lose half their InterCity services, Preston to Crewe journey time goes to about 90 minutes (it's the only direct service currently), Lake District tourism takes a huge beating by losing attratcive journey times from the South, the extension to London becomes pointless as it takes far too long to be an attractive alternative from anywhere west of Bolton, and a conurbation of over 1,500,000 (Wolves-Dudley-Birmingham-Coventry) loses fast, direct links to areas such as Warringtom, Wigan, Preston, the Lakes and Scotland (it is currently by a country mile faster to use the WCML vice ECML from Edinburgh-Birmingham). All of that for, from what I can tell, just to give Bolton and Chorley an extra train to Manchester...

Darren R · 4 Sep 2014

I hate to be a wet blanket on this one, but may I urge a note of caution. The reality is that the Bolton Evening News is saying that Bolton Council is saying that it's going to happen. Network Rail, on the other hand, are saying that they are looking at the possibility of it happening, and there is no suggestion that funding has even been sought. And even if funding is sought, it won't necessarily be forthcoming.

This is a long way from even being a concrete plan yet - it's little more than the council saying they would like it to happen.

Philip · 4 Sep 2014

MidnightFlyer said:
Doubt VT or the next franchise holder, or indeed anyone using the current route, would like that. Wigan and Warrington lose half their InterCity services, Preston to Crewe journey time goes to about 90 minutes (it's the only direct service currently), Lake District tourism takes a huge beating by losing attratcive journey times from the South, the extension to London becomes pointless as it takes far too long to be an attractive alternative from anywhere west of Bolton, and a conurbation of over 1,500,000 (Wolves-Dudley-Birmingham-Coventry) loses fast, direct links to areas such as Warringtom, Wigan, Preston, the Lakes and Scotland (it is currently by a country mile faster to use the WCML vice ECML from Edinburgh-Birmingham). All of that for, from what I can tell, just to give Bolton and Chorley an extra train to Manchester...

Alternatively you could run one of the half hourly LM services from Birmingham to Crewe onto Preston via Manchester and Bolton, so leaving the VT service as it is. The idea of diverting one of the Liverpool LM services to Preston has been going for a few years.

The Planner · 4 Sep 2014

Have they sorted the plans out then, as I heard a rumour a while back that the "sky link" stuck a pillar where the 5th platform track needs to be....

WatcherZero · 4 Sep 2014

Yeah, NR have dragged their heels approving the skylink as they were working on this behind the scenes, Skylink is now being redesigned and revised planning permission sought. Has already caused a delay in work beginning of nearly a year. TFGM are now going to crack on with the bus station and start the bridge when permissions are in place.

Geeves · 4 Sep 2014

As said the amount of people using the carpark vs the amount of people who arrive on foot at Bolton is minuscule. At most the car park can fit in 100 cars. I was working at Bolton station this week and I served 5 times that coming through the door!

There are rails still there around the back but obviously they are not in a very good state. As the article says this is just the councils wish, there is no money, no plans by Network rail and no firm plans of the Scotland trains ever returning.

Peter Lanky · 4 Sep 2014

Being from Bolton but now living in Wigan, I still retain an interest in the town. I had always assumed that the electric trains we now have in Wigan from Manchester Airport to Scotland would revert in full or in part to Bolton once the line has been electrified between Manchester and the WCML.

Comments here suggest that will not be happening. Obviously this would be a disadvantage to me if trains did revert to the old route, but I thought that this was the very reason for the electrification of trains through Bolton. Why would this be not likely to happen? In fact, are there any real plans at all for what will be happening?

thealexweb · 4 Sep 2014

Y961 XBU said:
...cant see Bolton getting a Rail Link to Scotland tho

And why not exactly? By December 2016 the via Bolton and Chorley route will be 15+ minutes faster than the current route. Wigan North Western already has extensive services to Scotland for a station of its patronage. As a frequent Bolton to Edinburgh passenger I cannot wait for things to go back to normal post-electrification.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Philip said:
I doubt TPE will reinstate Scotland services through Bolton, however the Scotland to London via Birmingham service could be an idea.

Something like:

Preston
Wigan/Chorley
Bolton
Salford
Piccadilly
Wilmslow
Crewe

Linespeed should be improved along the Bolton route along with electrification.

Chorley and Salford would have platform length issues but Bolton's platforms 3 and 4 could take a nine car 390 or double 221 with all doors able to open.

There is talk of long areas of the (true) Manchester to Preston route being 90-100mph post December 2016.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

MidnightFlyer said:
Doubt VT or the next franchise holder, or indeed anyone using the current route, would like that. Wigan and Warrington lose half their InterCity services, Preston to Crewe journey time goes to about 90 minutes (it's the only direct service currently), Lake District tourism takes a huge beating by losing attratcive journey times from the South, the extension to London becomes pointless as it takes far too long to be an attractive alternative from anywhere west of Bolton, and a conurbation of over 1,500,000 (Wolves-Dudley-Birmingham-Coventry) loses fast, direct links to areas such as Warringtom, Wigan, Preston, the Lakes and Scotland (it is currently by a country mile faster to use the WCML vice ECML from Edinburgh-Birmingham). All of that for, from what I can tell, just to give Bolton and Chorley an extra train to Manchester...

A better solution would have bene merging Transpennine North West in to the West Coast franchise but the DfT never went for it. The 1tph Scotland to Manchester Piccadilly continues towards London as part of one of the current Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston services. No journey times increases for anyone and Wigan and Warrington do not lose out of services.

Y961 XBU · 4 Sep 2014

thealexweb said:
And why not exactly? By December 2016 the via Bolton and Chorley route will be 15+ minutes faster than the current route. Wigan North Western already has extensive services to Scotland for a station of its patronage. As a frequent Bolton to Edinburgh passenger I cannot wait for things to go back to normal post-electrification.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Chorley and Salford would have platform length issues but Bolton's platforms 3 and 4 could take a nine car 390 or double 221 with all doors able to open.

There is talk of long areas of the (true) Manchester to Preston route being 90-100mph post December 2016.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A better solution would have bene merging Transpennine North West in to the West Coast franchise but the DfT never went for it. The 1tph Scotland to Manchester Piccadilly continues towards London as part of one of the current Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston services. No journey times increases for anyone and Wigan and Warrington do not lose out of services.

I just cant see many people of Bolton using the Train regularly to Scotland, more so when you got a City like Manchester right next door

thealexweb · 4 Sep 2014

Y961 XBU said:
I just cant see many people of Bolton using the Train regularly to Scotland, more so when you got a City like Manchester right next door

The same could be said for a station like Wigan North Western. It may be a mainline station but why should it get a service any better than say other minor mainline stations e.g. Leyland?

We cannot tell exactly how many people travel from Wigan and Bolton respectively to Scotland, we do have Annual rail passenger usage figures however and Bolton's is 3.5mn+ while both of the Wigan stations combined only achieves 2.7mn+. I know for both stations PTE passengers will skew the truth but that alone is no reason to write off long-distance services for Bolton.

MidnightFlyer · 4 Sep 2014

thealexweb said:
The same could be said for a station like Wigan North Western. It may be a mainline station but why should it get a service any better than say other minor mainline stations e.g. Leyland?

:roll: Is that a serious point? Wigan as a town has just under 100,000 residents, and also offers the easiest connections from Scotland, Carlisle, the Lakes and North Lancashire to Southport, St Helens (a town with over 100,000 residents), and Liverpool, the third biggest city in England...

thealexweb · 4 Sep 2014

MidnightFlyer said:
:roll: Is that a serious point? Wigan as a town has just under 100,000 residents, and also offers the easiest connections from Scotland, Carlisle, the Lakes and North Lancashire to Southport, St Helens (a town with over 100,000 residents), and Liverpool, the third biggest city in England...

I as many of this forum think the existence of Transpennine services that run Scotland to Liverpool is fast approaching so that would cater for Liverpool and St Helens but Southport, yes that is a fair comment.

Peter Lanky · 5 Sep 2014

Y961 XBU said:
I just cant see many people of Bolton using the Train regularly to Scotland, more so when you got a City like Manchester right next door

Why not? Are people in Bolton any less inclined than any other town of similar size to want to travel to Scotland.

I still think that there is still an almost universal thought process that only commuters use trains. Manchester is not the top of many people's holiday destinations.

LNW-GW Joint · 5 Sep 2014

What exactly does the 5th platform achieve?
If it was part of the general route upgrade for electrification and Northern Hub, it would already be on Network Rail's to do list.
There don't appear to be any service changes that demand a new platform.
It will not be cheap to reinstate the connection to the west.

Y961 XBU · 5 Sep 2014

Peter Lanky said:
Why not? Are people in Bolton any less inclined than any other town of similar size to want to travel to Scotland.

I still think that there is still an almost universal thought process that only commuters use trains. Manchester is not the top of many people's holiday destinations.

Am not saying theres anything wrong with Bolton, in fact am a regular visitor into the town (i even support their football team) i just cant see that many people visiting Scotland regularly, yes maybe once or twice a year as a holiday as you pointed out its a nice place to escape to but i just cant see very many regular travellers

Peter Lanky · 5 Sep 2014

Y961 XBU said:
Am not saying theres anything wrong with Bolton, in fact am a regular visitor into the town (i even support their football team) i just cant see that many people visiting Scotland regularly, yes maybe once or twice a year as a holiday as you pointed out its a nice place to escape to but i just cant see very many regular travellers

That could be said of any town anywhere though. I live in Wigan which is half the population of Bolton, and go to Scotland because there is a rail service from my local station, as do many others looking at the number of people boarding, and having a cursory glance at seat reservations (sad, but true). Statistically, twice as many people should want to go from Bolton as Wigan.

Again, I feel there is too much emphasis on commuting and daily travellers with leisure travellers not really being given the consideration they deserve, as as a result the industry is missing out on a lot of business.

I also think (not only trains, but just about every service possible) that the bean counters look at a product/service and conclude (wrongly) that there is no demand for it without considering that the reason is that it is not available or it is inconvenient. I'm convinced that this strategy is deliberately used as a tool to justify excessive centralisation of almost everything - deprive every other area of the service and this must mean that people 'want' to use the centralised facility.

If people in Bolton have to go to Wigan to get to Scotland, most will probably not bother, and will drive instead. Have a good service by train, at a reasonable price (and that's another story altogether) then people will use it. A six hour train journey to Inverness is infinitely better than a ten hour coach trip or 8 hour drive.

Similar could be said about St Helens. If there is an express train from Lime St, stooping at St Helens on it's way to the WCML, the desirability to use he service will increase dramatically. However, there doesn't yet appear to be a strategy of Liverpool to Scotland routes, which is odd, seeing as the service is currently non existent.

ianhr · 5 Sep 2014

LNW-GW Joint said:
What exactly does the 5th platform achieve?
If it was part of the general route upgrade for electrification and Northern Hub, it would already be on Network Rail's to do list.
There don't appear to be any service changes that demand a new platform.
It will not be cheap to reinstate the connection to the west.

Well, to the best of my recollection, there are 2 UP through platforms and so a train from Blackburn can run into the station in parallel with a train from Preston/Wigan. In the DOWN direction there is only one platform and since all trains stop the dwell time is critical if following trains are not to be backing up on the line to the south. With electrification and increased frequency, a following train could at least run into the station before a previous train had departed and so a 5th platform provides more capacity and reliability. Ideally a connection from the existing DOWN platform to the Blackburn line should also be reinstated.

Welshman · 5 Sep 2014

Y961 XBU said:
I just cant see many people of Bolton using the Train regularly to Scotland, more so when you got a City like Manchester right next door

Were Bolton station to get a decent-sized car-park, would it not be a more attractive proposition for Scotland-bound folks from the NW suburbs of Manchester to use Bolton, rather than drive into Manchester city centre?

Emyr · 5 Sep 2014

ianhr said:
Well, to the best of my recollection, there are 2 UP through platforms and so a train from Blackburn can run into the station in parallel with a train from Preston/Wigan. In the DOWN direction there is only one platform and since all trains stop the dwell time is critical if following trains are not to be backing up on the line to the south. With electrification and increased frequency, a following train could at least run into the station before a previous train had departed and so a 5th platform provides more capacity and reliability. Ideally a connection from the existing DOWN platform to the Blackburn line should also be reinstated.

[UP being towards Manchester, DOWN for Wigan to the West or Blackburn to the East]

Platform 2 is a bay.
Platform 4 is DOWN only.
Platform 1 is bi-directional for Blackburn.
Plarform 3 is generally UP only, but I have alighted on P3 from a Blackburn-bound (DOWN) service, when a delayed UP service was occupying P1.

In the long term, I think platforms 4 & 5 should be UP and DOWN respectively for the Wigan lines, but signalled bidirectionally to allow both platforms to be UP or DOWN for timetabling purposes.

Platform 3 should be UP only, but connected to both the Wigan lines and Blackburn lines, so that two DOWN(Wigan) services could use P4 and P5 whilst an UP(Wigan) used P3.

Platform 1 would be primarily DOWN(Blackburn), with UP(Blackburn) services using P3, but signalled bidirectionally so that a DOWN(Blackburn) could use P1 at the same time as the three-train scenario above...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It would be a lot nicer if the trains all stopped nearer the North end of the plaforms though, where the stairs and lifts are.

MidnightFlyer · 5 Sep 2014

Emyr said:
Platform 4 is DOWN only.

To the best of my memory, and Quail backs that up, p4 is bi-directional.

Howardh · 5 Sep 2014

I don't get the "not many people would go from Bolton to Scotland" argument?

If Bolton was on the inter-ciry routes (again) it could work in a similar way that Stockport does, and probably Watford - ie. passengers who come from/go to Bolton's surrounding areas, such as Bury, Radcliffe, Worsley, Westhoughton, north Salford...we're now getting into the half-million population wise - could use Bolton as the transport hub to change onto a bus (remember we are getting a rail/bus interchange - probably about the same time as that asteroid hits us, but at least it's coming) rather than go into Manchester and double back.

Trains from Scotland to Manchester completely miss this area at the moment, and just wonder how many alight at Preston to get another train to Bolton and it's surroundings, and then another bus when one could simply carry on down the line to Bolton and continue from there?

Not suggesting a train every 10 minutes .... but I bet four a day in each direction would be well patronised.

WatcherZero · 5 Sep 2014

They dont have to go to manchester to double back, they can go to Preston and enjoy a very high frequency.

Bolton does have a nice bi-directional commuter catchment and the station gets nearly as many travelling against peak manchester flows. However its not a hub, there arent any lines that pass through which cant access Scotland trains as easily or better at another stop, either Manchester, Wigan or Preston.

Its also not being left out, line speed upgrades planned that will mean faster and more frequent trains to blackburn and blackpool. In the short term theres still more disruption to come, more chorley work and single line running through farnworth for eight months.

Bolton to get 5th Platform

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