IanD
Established Member
Same guard who rejected it before?
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Moorthorpe to Penistone Season
- Thread starter Jdrowlands
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Same guard who rejected it before?
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Jdrowlands
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Nope, completely different staff on today.
bb21
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I wouldn't put too much emphasis on staff notices in these matters. Most staff will work off a "reasonable route" principle, and if something looks remotely valid then they will accept it. As for those few who don't consider this a reasonable route, a few staff notices are unlikely to change their views on what they consider valid. Furthermore I doubt any specific staff notice would be put out for this particular flow, and even if they do, it may well not be considered top of the priority list for many staff to remember by heart.
I would say just carry the necessary paperwork with you in case you need to explain yourself on some days. I find that most staff when explained to and shown the evidence would accept the ticket in good grace. If you run into one who remains unconvinced after being shown the evidence, I doubt there is much else you can say to persuade him.
You might run into problems sometimes, but that is life. If you feel inclined to complain afterwards then by all means do so.
I would say just carry the necessary paperwork with you in case you need to explain yourself on some days. I find that most staff when explained to and shown the evidence would accept the ticket in good grace. If you run into one who remains unconvinced after being shown the evidence, I doubt there is much else you can say to persuade him.
You might run into problems sometimes, but that is life. If you feel inclined to complain afterwards then by all means do so.
The vast majority of Guards will accept tickets that look reasonable, or even fairly reasonable. Clearly this route is reasonable as it's one of only two journey opportunities per hour and only takes a few minutes longer than the other.
If the intermediate fares were not higher.
Eg Southport to Manchester remains valid via Liverpool. Te fact TPE have been raising Liverpool to Manchester to make that a premium route dies not invalidate the route as it has protected status (source: a letter sent from ATOC to Oscar)
Eg Southport to Manchester remains valid via Liverpool. Te fact TPE have been raising Liverpool to Manchester to make that a premium route dies not invalidate the route as it has protected status (source: a letter sent from ATOC to Oscar)
Many thanks, I'd always wondered about this.
So put simply, you could take any route from A to C, as long as you didn't pass through any intermediate station B where the fare from A to B was higher than the fare A to C - correct?
bb21
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Yes, if you are travelling broadly in the right direction, to put it simply. Of course, it would not be reasonable to use a London - Glasgow ticket to travel via Brighton, even if all stations en route would have a cheaper fare from London.
There is a Book of Routes published by BR which shows what reasonable routes are.
There is a Book of Routes published by BR which shows what reasonable routes are.
Ah ok, so there was some equivalent book to the routing guide. I can imagine that even with more distance based fares, such a rule would open up anomalies and require tickets to be priced based on the longest reasonable route rather than the shortest.
Jdrowlands
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Another farce today I'm afraid to report 
I travelled from Huddersfield to Penistone this afternoon, and upon checking my ticket the guard questioned its validity, telling me that he had heard from a colleague it wasn't valid. I confirmed, as per my phone call with Northern's customer services on Saturday, that it was valid via Leeds and Huddersfield, and the guard responded by taking my ticket into the back cab in order to make a phone call himself. Lo and behold, a few stations later he returned with my ticket, now marked in large letters "NOT VALID VIA HUDDERSFIELD" along the front, and informed me that it is only valid via routes in South Yorkshire and the person on the phone instructed him to mark it as such.
Meanwhile, I am still waiting for a response to the e-mail I sent last Friday regarding this ticket. I'm not sure how I'll get to Huddersfield on Monday now...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, I just phoned Northern's customer relations again and asked again whether the ticket was valid via Huddersfield. The person on the phone once again confirmed the validity via Huddersfield using his computer, and as a result I asked to make a complaint. Here, I was transferred to another operator who told me that it "clearly was not valid" via Leeds on TransPennine Express services, and it was a 'loophole on the system' that caused it to show as a permitted route, and my ticket was definitely not valid. I asked about getting a refund and/or compensation, and I was told that it was my responsibility to have the correct ticket - despite me checking the validity of my chosen route via multiple official sources both prior to and after purchasing it. They gave me a reference number and advised writing a letter to customer services.
To say that I am annoyed at Northern would probably be a bit of an understatement.
I travelled from Huddersfield to Penistone this afternoon, and upon checking my ticket the guard questioned its validity, telling me that he had heard from a colleague it wasn't valid. I confirmed, as per my phone call with Northern's customer services on Saturday, that it was valid via Leeds and Huddersfield, and the guard responded by taking my ticket into the back cab in order to make a phone call himself. Lo and behold, a few stations later he returned with my ticket, now marked in large letters "NOT VALID VIA HUDDERSFIELD" along the front, and informed me that it is only valid via routes in South Yorkshire and the person on the phone instructed him to mark it as such.
Meanwhile, I am still waiting for a response to the e-mail I sent last Friday regarding this ticket. I'm not sure how I'll get to Huddersfield on Monday now...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, I just phoned Northern's customer relations again and asked again whether the ticket was valid via Huddersfield. The person on the phone once again confirmed the validity via Huddersfield using his computer, and as a result I asked to make a complaint. Here, I was transferred to another operator who told me that it "clearly was not valid" via Leeds on TransPennine Express services, and it was a 'loophole on the system' that caused it to show as a permitted route, and my ticket was definitely not valid. I asked about getting a refund and/or compensation, and I was told that it was my responsibility to have the correct ticket - despite me checking the validity of my chosen route via multiple official sources both prior to and after purchasing it. They gave me a reference number and advised writing a letter to customer services.
To say that I am annoyed at Northern would probably be a bit of an understatement.
What the ****?!
NRE still shows the route as valid. Nothing's been put in the Routeing Guide to change your ticket's validity. And even if it had, the validity at point of purchase prevails throughout the ticket's duration.
This is above CR now - they can't do anything other than apologise/confirm it's valid/get it wrong. You need to get management involved if you want all staff on the ground to understand the tickets validity.
You need to report this to Passenger Focus. We have a contact at PF but you need to obtain a reference number.
I'm sure Barry Doe would be interested to hear that fake route restrictions are also being written onto tickets by Northern staff, some of whom have also been caught writing fake expiry dates onto tickets.
How about reporting the matter to the DfTs franchising team? Inform them there has been a franchise breach and northern, when contacted, failed to resolve it. I believe RJ has reported some success following this route.
If you do not escalate this, Northern will continue to get away with it.
They are not scared of you, and are content to continue to have the view that their contractual commitments to you are non-existent , but they will be concerned if the DfT/PF/media get involved. They think you wont bother to contact them. Prove them wrong. don't give in to them.
I'm sure Barry Doe would be interested to hear that fake route restrictions are also being written onto tickets by Northern staff, some of whom have also been caught writing fake expiry dates onto tickets.
How about reporting the matter to the DfTs franchising team? Inform them there has been a franchise breach and northern, when contacted, failed to resolve it. I believe RJ has reported some success following this route.
If you do not escalate this, Northern will continue to get away with it.
They are not scared of you, and are content to continue to have the view that their contractual commitments to you are non-existent , but they will be concerned if the DfT/PF/media get involved. They think you wont bother to contact them. Prove them wrong. don't give in to them.
Haywain
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I may be misreading this, but it seems to me that the latest problems were experienced with TPE staff, so complaining to Northern is unlikely to have much impact. If I am wrong, I can't really see why TPE get mentioned.
I believe only Northern operate Huddersfield - Penistone, and it was a guard on this service causing the OP problems?
Jdrowlands
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Yes, all the problems have been with Northern. The reason why TPE have been mentioned is because the ticket produces itineraries via Leeds on services from Huddersfield, which according to the person on the phone meant that it would "clearly not be valid". Just to be clear, so far I've only been using the ticket between Penistone and Huddersfield.
Thanks for the advice yorkie - I've written to Passenger Focus with my reference number now and we'll see what they say. I'm certainly intending to escalate the matter if it isn't resolved promptly.
Thanks for the advice yorkie - I've written to Passenger Focus with my reference number now and we'll see what they say. I'm certainly intending to escalate the matter if it isn't resolved promptly.
stuartmoss
Member
Good on you. I'm interested in the outcome of this, so please keep us updated.
Jdrowlands
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After a couple of weeks of emails with Northern, their customer services department and Fares Manager have agreed that a Penistone to Moorthorpe season is indeed valid via Huddersfield. They also said that this "fares anomaly" may be changing in January 2015, but not before then.
I've been issued with a free-of-charge replacement for my defaced season (which according to them, should not have been defaced in the first place) today, and have been told to send in all the tickets I've been buying in order to get them refunded. Apparently an email has also been sent to front-line staff informing them of my ticket's validity.
So, with a bit of luck this issue is all sorted out now. Hopefully tomorrow will be a trouble-free day.
I've been issued with a free-of-charge replacement for my defaced season (which according to them, should not have been defaced in the first place) today, and have been told to send in all the tickets I've been buying in order to get them refunded. Apparently an email has also been sent to front-line staff informing them of my ticket's validity.
So, with a bit of luck this issue is all sorted out now. Hopefully tomorrow will be a trouble-free day.
Well done.
I suggest you pre-emptively write to Passenger Focus outlining that this is a historically permitted route, a reasonable route, and would they consider objecting to any proposed changes. Please let us know how you get on.
And to the Northern/TPE/ATOC managers reading this: if you attempt to change it, we will fight it. I strongly suggest you don't bother. Just admit that it's a reasonable route and get on with more important things, like actually providing a service for your customers. Please? Thank you!
I suggest you pre-emptively write to Passenger Focus outlining that this is a historically permitted route, a reasonable route, and would they consider objecting to any proposed changes. Please let us know how you get on.
And to the Northern/TPE/ATOC managers reading this: if you attempt to change it, we will fight it. I strongly suggest you don't bother. Just admit that it's a reasonable route and get on with more important things, like actually providing a service for your customers. Please? Thank you!
Solent&Wessex
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Or they could do what I have seen happen elsewhere. Get special permission to increase the Any Permitted fare to a higher level which they feel is appropriate to a journey via Leeds or Huddersfield, and then introduce a lower priced Rte Not Via / Via X fare for the cheaper route. Thus no permitted / reasonable routes have been removed - it just costs more money! .
bb21
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Passenger Focus did a fat lot of good the last time it happened. They didn't even know they were strung along by XC and FGW.
Slightly OT, but why wasn't this done for NW - Rugeley fares (via/not via Birmingham)?
Incompetence? ATOC? You must be joking
Not incompetence. More likely laziness, and because no-one is going to make them do it properly and it's easier to claim it was an "error" as the mandarins at the DfT approve almost anything that is claimed to be an error.
But it's off-topic! There is a separate thread for that
But it's off-topic! There is a separate thread for that
I looked but couldn't find the separate thread - any chance of a link?Not incompetence. More likely laziness, and because no-one is going to make them do it properly and it's easier to claim it was an "error" as the mandarins at the DfT approve almost anything that is claimed to be an error.
But it's off-topic! There is a separate thread for that
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