Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

sprinterguy · 8 Oct 2014

HSTEd said:
Will these be full length HSTs?

I seriously doubt it (Though I have no evidence to point either way).

RailUK Forums

D6975 · 8 Oct 2014

HSTEd said:
Will these be full length HSTs?

I imagine Edinburgh-Inverness/Aberdeen could be 2+9 but I don't think Glasgow has the capacity does it?

I suspect that they'll all be the same length, having different length sets complicates diagramming. The platform lengths at Queen St is likely to be the limiting factor. 2+9 would be out of the question.

jw · 8 Oct 2014

Railway Gazette are reporting 27 refurbished HST sets, and upto 80 new EMUs.

LNW-GW Joint · 8 Oct 2014

WatcherZero said:
Brochure for new franchisee.
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk... franchise/Scotrail Brochure October 2014.pdf
Apart from the most sickening level of congratulatory backslapping I have ever seen in print a lot of blurb with few new details other than some ticketing improvements.

The HSTs seem to be now officially the "Hugely Popular High Speed Trains".

There was speculation that a bidder wanted Virgin's Voyagers for the Scotrail intercity services.
When it became clear the DfT was not going to let Virgin order new stock I imagine they went for the next best solution.
I guess the HSTs will be from Great Western routes displaced by IEPs.
I wonder if they will get more than a refresh with lower density seating?
New power doors and retention toilets would be quite a commitment for 40-year-old stock (nearly 50 years old by the end of the franchise).

"80 new (corridor) trains for EGIP". Do they mean 80 coaches (20 trains)? 80x4-car trains seems a lot.
The previous OJEU entries only talk about a maximum of 96 vehicles each for EGIP and the Alloa/Dunblane services.

Edit: BBC Scotland reporter on Radio 4 has just said Hitachi are likely to get the EMU order.

HSTEd · 8 Oct 2014

D6975 said:
I suspect that they'll all be the same length, having different length sets complicates diagramming. The platform lengths at Queen St is likely to be the limiting factor. 2+9 would be out of the question.

So what is the platform length at Queen Street?
I can't remember myself :oops:

Simon11 · 8 Oct 2014

All the EGIP trains will be 8 car during the peak. Not sure if they are fixed though, with 4 cars for off peak?

jw · 8 Oct 2014

Hitachi have posted a mockup picture of the new EMU in Scotrail livery on Twitter. Not gangwayed though.

http://t.co/lpwZVl9vLO

WatcherZero · 8 Oct 2014

LNW-GW Joint said:
The HSTs seem to be now officially the "Hugely Popular High Speed Trains".
There was speculation that a bidder wanted Virgin's Voyagers for the Scotrail intercity services.
When it became clear the DfT was not going to let Virgin order new stock I imagine they went for the next best solution.
I guess the HSTs will be from Great Western routes displaced by IEPs.
I wonder if they will get more than a refresh with lower density seating?
New power doors and retention toilets would be quite a commitment for 40-year-old stock (nearly 50 years old by the end of the franchise).

"80 new (corridor) trains for EGIP". Do they mean 80 coaches (20 trains)? 80x4-car trains seems a lot.
The previous OJEU entries only talk about a maximum of 96 vehicles each for EGIP and the Alloa/Dunblane services.

Edit: BBC Scotland reporter on Radio 4 has just said Hitachi are likely to get the EMU order.

Actually that 20 would kind of fit with peoples 30 estimate of HST's required to reach my 50 estimate of the 23% fleet increase. If we assume the HST's are approx twice the length of Turbostars which would be released and the EMU's will be four car then that would be a release of about 15-20 three car DMU's, whether they would release turbostars or Sprinters is of course open, I imagine Abellio would have pushed for keeping the Sprinters and releasing the Turbostars but TS with their obsession with a young fleet may have pushed the reverse.

khib70 · 8 Oct 2014

Clip said:
Yawn. It is over emotional because you know fine well that the scots and english have always had little digs like that at each other over the many years as part of a union. You're just being silly. Very silly.

And even I got the reference he made which Ainsworth even picked up on with regards to whinging northerners. Wipe your tears and wind your neck. Its pathetic to see that racism comment thrown about like that because it loses its meaning rapidly.

back on topic I think using HSTs is an excellent idea. Some of us want them to go n forever you knwo

They're not little digs. They're part of an attitude which your post amply demonstrates. It's quite often expressed in exactly the same sneering, arrogant, superior attitude you're expressing here. "Wioe your tears"? aye right - "children behave" in other words.

Your attitudes are as obsolete as your (back on topic) cast-off trains.

HSTEd · 8 Oct 2014

Alright

Don't have the HSTs (they are obsolete castoffs after all)- but good look on getting TS to spring for new rolling stock at this point.

Altnabreac · 8 Oct 2014

HSTEd said:
So what is the platform length at Queen Street?
I can't remember myself

Post EGIP upgrade there will be 4 x 8 car platforms so it would suggest 2+6 or 2+7 (would front power car foul the points?) to be the most likely formations.

sprinterguy · 8 Oct 2014

HSTEd said:
So what is the platform length at Queen Street?
I can't remember myself

At present:
Platform 1 75m (3 x 23m cars)
Platform 2 162m (6 x 23m cars)
Platform 3 125m (5 x 23m cars)
Platform 4 125m (5 x 23m cars)
Platform 5 168m (7 x 23m cars)
Platform 6 173m (7 x 23m cars)
Platform 7 192m (8 x 23m cars)

Im not sure what the lengths will be once the extensions have been completed, but apparently platforms 2,3,4 and 5 will be able to handle 8-car trains.

HSTEd · 8 Oct 2014

Looking like 2+6 or 2+7 at best then. (It would stick ~5 metres off the end of Platform 7)

Eng274 · 8 Oct 2014

WatcherZero said:
Last I heard the easist conversion to 'tourist' was the the Mk3 rolling stock, slicing them in half longitudually and adding a new roof. Suggestion has always been the Mk3 carriages themselves are in fairly good knick its the locomotives that need a rebuild or replacement.

If the class 43s are getting a bit tired, it might be good work for a fleet of 68s to pick up. The question is whether a pair working top and tail would be required to ascend Cowlairs tunnel, or if a single 68 could work with a DVT (converted from a class 43 or otherwise)?

The MTU engines aren't that old, they must still have a few overhauls left in them yet. The traction equipment and motors could be replaced with new equipment if the business case was positive.

sprinterguy · 8 Oct 2014

158>185 said:
If the class 43s are getting a bit tired, it might be good work for a fleet of 68s to pick up. The question is whether a pair working top and tail would be required to ascend Cowlairs tunnel, or if a single 68 could work with a DVT (converted from a class 43 or otherwise)?

A class 68 is a considerably more powerful locomotive than an HST power car, and better geared. A single loco would have no problem lifting a 5 or 6-car formation (which is probably what were looking at here) up Cowlairs bank or over any of the Highland gradients.

Porterbrook have offered an option to convert mark 3 trailers to driving vehicles, so no need to convert redundant power cars.

HSTEd · 8 Oct 2014

The 68s might be lighter than the absurd 67s but they are far heavier than a HST power car - no chance of differentials there.

Altnabreac · 8 Oct 2014

WatcherZero said:
Last I heard the easist conversion to 'tourist' was the the Mk3 rolling stock, slicing them in half longitudually and adding a new roof. Suggestion has always been the Mk3 carriages themselves are in fairly good knick its the locomotives that need a rebuild or replacement.

As I read the ITT Scenic train requirement bidders don't have to do anything quite that drastic. New seating, good table - window alignments, more luggage / cycle space and upgraded catering facilities are all mentioned but Swiss style full panoramic roof isn't a necessity.

I suspect it will be based on either 156s or 158s as the 1/3 2/3 door arrangement on 170s just doesn't suit the rural routes.

Wonder whether the Fife Circle and Edinburgh - Dundee services are planned for 170s or 158s? Would make sense to be lose a whole DMU class but TS might see 158s on Dundee semi fasts as a service downgrade.

HSTEd · 8 Oct 2014

It might be better (if we are going to have these scenic trains) just to use some HST sets to go along with this new large-ish fleet of HSTs that ScotRail will be operating.

Could even order a handful of new Panoramic view coaches and splice them into the relevant formations.

trivran · 8 Oct 2014

So what's gonna replace these HSTs when the time comes? IEPs?

HSTEd · 8 Oct 2014

trivran said:
So what's gonna replace these HSTs when the time comes? IEPs?

Hopefully pure electric multiple units

Altnabreac · 8 Oct 2014

trivran said:
So what's gonna replace these HSTs when the time comes? IEPs?

HSTEd said:
Hopefully pure electric multiple units

Depending on the extent of the refurbishment / life extension its not completely out of the question.

At the end of the new franchise in 2024 it's likely that the only Diesel trains operated by the new franchise will be the scenic trains and the HSTs.
Shotts, East Kilbride, Barrhead and Maryhill are all likely to be electrified during the Abellio franchise following on from Edinburgh - Glasgow and Dunblane/Alloa.

Fife Circle and Kirkcaldy - Dundee are due for wiring somewhere in the mid 2020s so they might just fall into the next franchise.

All this assumes electrification continues at broadly the current rate and follows the priorities set out in the STPR.

For HSTs to cover Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen until electrification you're looking at more like 2030 so you would need a 15 year life extension programme, you'd think that's just about doable but at the limits of the bodyshell life.

For Perth - Inverness and Aberdeen - Inverness I would think a different DMU will be needed to cover those diagrams before the wires get there in the mid to late 2030s.

YorkshireRider · 8 Oct 2014

I wonder if Dec 2018 could spell the end of EC services running north of Edinburgh, with the introduction of HSTs on the Aberdeen/Inverness to Edinburgh runs. It would free up paths for Scotrail and help reduce costs on the EC franchise, with any guards and catering staff based at Aberdeen or Inverness transferring to Scotrail. As long as the connections were well planned I see it as a sensible move.

Clip · 8 Oct 2014

YorkshireRider said:
I wonder if Dec 2018 could spell the end of EC services running north of Edinburgh, with the introduction of HSTs on the Aberdeen/Inverness to Edinburgh runs. It would free up paths for Scotrail and help reduce costs on the EC franchise, with any guards and catering staff based at Aberdeen or Inverness transferring to Scotrail. As long as the connections were well planned I see it as a sensible move.

But forcing people to change trains isnt a good thing for long distance journeys as they gernally have lots of heavy luggage.

sprinterguy · 8 Oct 2014

YorkshireRider said:
I wonder if Dec 2018 could spell the end of EC services running north of Edinburgh, with the introduction of HSTs on the Aberdeen/Inverness to Edinburgh runs.

Nope, through trains to/from Kings Cross from/to Aberdeen and Inverness trains remain part of the East Coast Train Service Requirement, specified in the ITT, post May 2020 until the end of the franchise.

The specification is quite inflexible in their operation, in fact.

Clip · 8 Oct 2014

D6975 said:
Clip - are you Geordie (Top HST basher?)

Nah sorry but I am a geordie lol. And I do love me HSTs..

YorkshireRider · 8 Oct 2014

Seems like a waste of rolling stock, for what are token services that need to have cheap advances between Edinburgh and Aber/Inv to fill them. These will become less easy to sell if Scotrail have much increased capacity as they will be able to compete on advance fares. Having said that I suppose with IEP, EC can just send 4/5 car units up there.

Clip · 8 Oct 2014

HSTEd said:
It might be better (if we are going to have these scenic trains) just to use some HST sets to go along with this new large-ish fleet of HSTs that ScotRail will be operating.

Could even order a handful of new Panoramic view coaches and splice them into the relevant formations.

Or just whack a loco on the front of a 442 after a bit of work to them!!

HSTEd · 8 Oct 2014

Clip said:
Or just whack a loco on the front of a 442 after a bit of work to them!!

Where does the loco come from

al.currie93 · 8 Oct 2014

Great news about the HSTs in my opinion. Still working fine, so good that they have a home

I always wondered if the scenic trains would be a return to LHCS on these lines... if so, great

clc · 8 Oct 2014

LNW-GW Joint said:
"80 new (corridor) trains for EGIP". Do they mean 80 coaches (20 trains)? 80x4-car trains seems a lot.

It will have to be a mixture of 3 and 4 car units as 7-car formations will still be running at that point and for a year thereafter.

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