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Whats the future of the class 317,class 315

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JACK SPILLMAN

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What is going to happen when the west anglia mainline gets taken over and govia bin the class 317,321s!!

whats going to happen
 
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swt_passenger

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On behalf of the many others who are probably wondering the same, what's the connection between the West Anglia route and GoVia?
 

JACK SPILLMAN

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I read somewhere that the West anglia mainline is being takenover by London overground in 2015 and in 2017 they wan't to bin the class 315,class 317.Also at around the sametime ithink Govia northern wan't to bin the class 317,class 321
 

swt_passenger

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The WA mainline is NOT being taken over by LO. They are only taking over the all station stoppers on the inner suburban part of the route.

GoVia's plans for the Great Northern have been covered in depth in a number of previous threads about 'Govia Thameslink'. If you check them out you'll find the answer somewhere, but in summary the retained GN routes will be operated by 377s and 365s, and the current GN routes transferring to Thameslink will be operated by 700s. The Moorgate route will be operated by new construction 6 car EMUs, class not yet known.
 
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180zephyr

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The WA mainline is NOT being taken over by LO. They are only taking over the all station stoppers on the inner suburban part of the route.

GoVia's plans for the Great Northern have been covered in depth in a number of previous threads about 'Govia Thameslink'. If you check them out you'll find the answer somewhere, but in summary the retained GN routes will be operated by 377s and 365s, and the current GN routes transferring to Thameslink will be operated by 700s. The Moorgate route will be operated by new construction 6 car EMUs, class not yet known.

as swtpassenger said, however GN may replace 317s with displaced 377s or possibly 387s once 700s are delivered, and EMT have made their mind up about electrified coby services.
 

swt_passenger

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as swtpassenger said, however GN may replace 317s with displaced 377s or possibly 387s once 700s are delivered, and EMT have made their mind up about electrified coby services.

I think the evidence is more firm than that. GTR have said in their earlier online presentation that the 'remainder GN' services will use 377s, with the exception of a limited number of 365s as peak extras. No suggestion in their announcements so far that 387s are still a possibility - unless you've heard different somewhere of course...

Hasn't the fairly well informed insider 377/5 also written here that the GN outer fleet will reduce to 377s and 365s only?
 

yorkie

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I read somewhere...
Where? Someone is telling you porkies!

Rather than reading unreliable sources and posting new threads about untrue claims on this forum, I recommend you consider reading the threads on this forum?;)

See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=94908 - there are 88 posts on that thread. There's also a more recent thread here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101239 with 49 posts so far.

As for Govia Great Northern's plans for their trains, that's surely a completely separate matter.
 

JACK SPILLMAN

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Where? Someone is telling you porkies!

Rather than reading unreliable sources and posting new threads about untrue claims on this forum, I recommend you consider reading the threads on this forum?;)

See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=94908 - there are 88 posts on that thread. There's also a more recent thread here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101239 with 49 posts so far.

As for Govia Great Northern's plans for their trains, that's surely a completely separate matter.

ok thanks i keep forgetting to do that and i'm going to find out who put what i read and never trust them ;)
 

Class377/5

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I think the evidence is more firm than that. GTR have said in their earlier online presentation that the 'remainder GN' services will use 377s, with the exception of a limited number of 365s as peak extras. No suggestion in their announcements so far that 387s are still a possibility - unless you've heard different somewhere of course...

Hasn't the fairly well informed insider 377/5 also written here that the GN outer fleet will reduce to 377s and 365s only?

Its been publicly confirmed GTR GN services will be run by 365/377 into Kings Cross, 700s go St Pancras with Moorgate's getting brand new stock.

As swt_passenger has correctly stated the 387s have had no announced use on GN and never will.
 

badassunicorn

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Any news on 317/722? Are they going to eventually upgrade all the 317's to this standard? Or at least refresh them to the same standard? The 600's with the grey dotted seat covers are probably in the best interior condition compared to the 8/500's.
 

edwin_m

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It looks like the 315s will all go within the next five years, replaced either by LO or Crossrail. The refurbishments of 317s and 321s by their respective owners are effectively demonstrators to see if any operator wishes to take them up in a future franchise either on their existing routes or elsewhere. There is also the 319 fleet in a similar position - some have gone to Northern but no particular reason why the next franchise shouldn't take up a different class if it makes financial sense to do so.

These are all 100mph units with relatively low power:weight ratio so probably unsuitable for the GW suburban electrification (110mph and high performance apparently needed), and for Welsh Valleys (hill-climbing and acceleration is important). Apart from Northern, the only obvious potential users are the GW suburban branches and some duties in the Bristol-Cardiff area. Without even more electrification it is difficult to see all of these fleets having a long-term future.
 

Class 170101

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The 315s were expected to have a longer term future post Crossrail as the electrification scheme didn't include any new trains. Cascaded trains were to be used to make the business case stack up.
 

edwin_m

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The 315s were expected to have a longer term future post Crossrail as the electrification scheme didn't include any new trains. Cascaded trains were to be used to make the business case stack up.

I think you're referring to Cardiff Valleys electrification here, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
 

apk55

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A class 315 has half the wheels motored, but with low powered motors. It has a high starting tractive effort, but the tractive effort falls rapidly with increasing speed.
A 317 has only a 1/4 wheels motored, but with high powered motors. The starting tractive effort will be much less, but is maintained to a much higher speed, and give more tractive effort at high speed (above about 40-50mph) than a 315.

This means that from a standing start a class 315 is much faster to clear a platform or junction, but a 317 would overtake it after a couple of miles. They would probably be ideal for the Welsh Valleys where high tractive effort means good hill climbing ability, and high speed is not required along the twisting lines.
 

JACK SPILLMAN

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Nice info i see what you meen because when a 317 passes the coach under the pantograph has the motor in because you can here it but not in any other coaches , and i have herd when the 315's set off you can here the difference that more wheels are powerd . What about the class 360 and 321 whats the power set up for them ?
 

badassunicorn

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pretty much the same, 360 has same as 315 and 321 is pretty much identical to a 317 but with different styling/cab etc.
360 is DMC-TS-PSL-DMC or something like that and 321 is DTS-ATS-PMS-DTC ( maybe the ATS and PMS are in the wrong order but you get the gist =)
 

edwin_m

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Class 319 also has the same arrangement as 317 with only one motor coach. 318 and 320 are effectively 3-car versions of 317 and 321 so have one coach motored out of three. Units built since privatisation have up to 50% motored axles but use three-phase motors which can deliver more power at higher speeds, so they accelerate better across the speed range.
 

samuelmorris

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I don't think anything has been said about retiring any 317s from West Anglia has it? My assumption is that the odd units that occasionally worked the short distance WA routes would be added to the fleets serving the longer distance routes to Cambridge, Bishops Stortford etc. whereas the 315s would be sent to another TOC or disposed of once LO have their new stock delivered in, 2018 I think it is?

Having seen the 317/7 demonstrator although I haven't been on it, I'm far less impressed than I am with the 321/4 demonstrator (which admittedly I have ridden on) and I'm almost hoping if they do carry out a refurbishment they do more, but I suppose it depends on how much of a life extension they want it to be. If they're redoing the traction gear I would have thought it was supposed to be a fairly considerable one, but given the 321s have at least 7 years on some of the original 317s, I do wonder how much of a service life they hope to achieve. Even if they start a refurbishment programme next year, by the time it's done - a 15 year service life beyond that point will put them at 50 years old by retirement!
 

SPADTrap

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I don't think anything has been said about retiring any 317s from West Anglia has it? My assumption is that the odd units that occasionally worked the short distance WA routes would be added to the fleets serving the longer distance routes to Cambridge, Bishops Stortford etc. whereas the 315s would be sent to another TOC or disposed of once LO have their new stock delivered in, 2018 I think it is?

Yeah that's what I've heard, no chance of the 317s going off the WA just yet but I did hear a bulk of certain 317 sub-classes will be transferred over to LOROL along with the 315s until they receive new units! AGA will need to retain some 317s though.
 

JACK SPILLMAN

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Yeah that's what I've heard, no chance of the 317s going off the WA just yet but I did hear a bulk of certain 317 sub-classes will be transferred over to LOROL along with the 315s until they receive new units! AGA will need to retain some 317s though.

Thats also what i have heard
 

badassunicorn

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would make sense kind of if LOROL took all the /8's as (according to wiki) there are 12 of these units. Or maybe they'll take the /7's? Who knows until it happens! But I definitely agree all the 317's need some kind of TLC, they are very tired looking!
 

SPADTrap

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would make sense kind of if LOROL took all the /8's as (according to wiki) there are 12 of these units. Or maybe they'll take the /7's? Who knows until it happens! But I definitely agree all the 317's need some kind of TLC, they are very tired looking!

If I remember correctly, can't find the thread it was said in but I think they're taking the /5s and /8s.
 

HSTEd

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These are all 100mph units with relatively low power:weight ratio so probably unsuitable for the GW suburban electrification (110mph and high performance apparently needed), and for Welsh Valleys (hill-climbing and acceleration is important). Apart from Northern, the only obvious potential users are the GW suburban branches and some duties in the Bristol-Cardiff area. Without even more electrification it is difficult to see all of these fleets having a long-term future.

You could always put lots of them on TPE North.....
WHile they won't match 185s in the acceleration stakes they will likely be able to benefit from some differentials on account of not being solid blocks of metal or forged from the hearts of neutron stars.
 
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180zephyr

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I think the evidence is more firm than that. GTR have said in their earlier online presentation that the 'remainder GN' services will use 377s, with the exception of a limited number of 365s as peak extras. No suggestion in their announcements so far that 387s are still a possibility - unless you've heard different somewhere of course...

Hasn't the fairly well informed insider 377/5 also written here that the GN outer fleet will reduce to 377s and 365s only?

once themeslink have their 700s then either the 387s or 377/5s and 3 377/2s will go to emt for the corby services after electrification, the one that isn't chosen will go to southern to replace some 455s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If I remember correctly, can't find the thread it was said in but I think they're taking the /5s and /8s.

does this mean that 315s are taking over their services(Bishops Stortford, hertford east, Cambridge etc)
 

badassunicorn

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I would highly doubt it, 315's don't have toilets for one, and they are pretty unsuitable otherwise for longer distances, especially as they are restricted to 75mph
 

Class377/5

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once themeslink have their 700s then either the 387s or 377/5s and 3 377/2s will go to emt for the corby services after electrification, the one that isn't chosen will go to southern to replace some 455s.

The 377s are off to GN, its the 387/1 that were rumored to be going. No-one has said Southern is replacing the 455s. What was said is using less of them during peak, in part due to more 377s being around but also the fact the 455s are getting on and will be less reliable by then.
 
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