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HST's for Scotrails New Franchise

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sprinterguy

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So what exactly is "Scenic Stock"? Shame they won't do a Chiltern. Would be good to see them get a tag on order from CAF for coaching stock and a 68 or 88 fleet! Won't the DMU fleet be all 170's anyway? Some rumours Hitachi may be given some orders for stock on ScotRail lines.
“Scenic stock” will probably be either 158s or 156s – Scotrail will most likely be keeping more than just 170s.

Hitachi are believed to have won the order to provide electric trains for the Edinburgh to Glasgow route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The tender does not require Aberdeen - Inverness trains to be worked by the "Intercity" stock
Actually, the Invitiation to Tender did state that Aberdeen to Inverness would be part of the "Inter-city initiative".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
EGIP will allow 8-car trains on Glasgow-Edinburgh, presumably of 23m stock, by moving the buffer stops at Queen Street back into the concourse. I'm not sure the plan is finalised but it would certainly need to have several platforms long enough for a 2+6 HST.
Platforms 2, 3, 4 and 5 are being extended back into the concourse at Queen Street, but I do not know by how much. At least some of these platforms will be able to accomodate 8 x 23 metre train formations: I suspect that the sources I read have got their wires crossed: All of platforms 2 - 5 are being extended back into the concourse, but only platforms 2, 65 and 7 will be able to accommodate 8-car trains, probably.
 
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Altnabreac

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Actually, the Invitiation to Tender did state that Aberdeen to Inverness would be part of the "Inter-city initiative".

Indeed Aberdeen to Inverness was a bit of a halfway house specification in the tender. They were to be included in the "Inter-city initiative" but not necessarily served using the full spec Intercity stock:

Scotrail ITT said:
The operating and passenger demand characteristics of Aberdeen to Inverness services are different from those of the Inverness to Central Belt and Aberdeen to Central Belt routes. Transport Scotland expects the passenger facing features of the rolling stock to be comparable for all these routes, but recognises that the rolling stock used may be different.

Looks like Abellio have gone for extra brownie points by promising to use the full Intercity spec HSTs on Aberdeen - Inverness services.

By the time you commissioned a different stock upgrade for Aberdeen - Inverness and then looked at trying to separate out all the diagrams etc it possibly made more sense financially to just use one consistent fleet of Intercity Stock for all services between Inverness - Aberdeen - Dundee - Perth - Inverness rather than have a seaparate product for Aberdeen - Inverness.

Note: In the tender the extra services between Inverness - Elgin, Carnoustie - Dundee are not included in the Intercity spec. The Blair Atholl - Edinburgh early morning service is included in the Intercity spec.

I suspect Abellio will operate the Inverness - Elgin services using "Scenic" stock from the Far North / Kyle pool but they could opt to use HSTs on some services if it's easier to diagram that way.
 

sprinterguy

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Indeed Aberdeen to Inverness was a bit of a halfway house specification in the tender. They were to be included in the "Inter-city initiative" but not necessarily served using the full spec Intercity stock:
Oh, fair enough. I didn’t spot that bit. :oops:
 

Rick1984

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converting the TGS to a driving trailer with a cab is certainly an interesting idea, you could then potentially have up to 7+1. Don't know if it would be feasible or if the performance would suffer too much
 

Topgun333

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Nah! Sorry I have to totally disagree with you there. Seeing you are only losing the HST's because you are getting brand spanking new IEP's and only have 8 pacer class 143, while northern have 80 odd rust buckets of Class 142 (I don't use the term rust bucket without reason with the well publicized corrosion problems that the 142's have!) Any cascades of 170/156's, although would it more likely be 156/158's? should head just south of the border into the Northern region as I can see no chance of Northern getting any new trains while the powers at be in Westminster have to look at a map to find where the North is.

It is good to see that the HST still has a life after the introduction of the IEP train. Still one of my favourite trains and still looks pretty good for being 40 years old.

Going off on a slight tangent but it shows how well local authorities on whole can run local transport compared to Westminster. Just take a look at Transport Scotland, TfGM and TfL. More devolved powers for transport please.

Have to say I agree entirely. The commuter run into Manchester and Leeds aboard Pacers is a far greater problem than the commuter run into Exeter.
 

455driver

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converting the TGS to a driving trailer with a cab is certainly an interesting idea, you could then potentially have up to 7+1. Don't know if it would be feasible or if the performance would suffer too much

going from 2+8 to 1+7 what do you think?
 

sprinterguy

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converting the TGS to a driving trailer with a cab is certainly an interesting idea, you could then potentially have up to 7+1. Don't know if it would be feasible or if the performance would suffer too much
I’d have serious doubts about a 1+7 formation being able to handle the gradients on the Highland main line, or perhaps even the Cowlairs bank. Plus it'd be dead slow. I think 1+5 would be about the maximum limit.
 

158722

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I posted this on another forum and can't be bothered to write it all out again, but the comments are equally relevant to the debate here.

I've spent some considerable time running through the potential impacts of the various stages of E&G and other electrification schemes (Whifflet/Cumbernauld, plus expected Shotts route, East Kilbride and Barrhead) on ScotRail's DMU fleet. Without going into too much detail, the combined effect of those schemes is that all 48 156s can easily be replaced progressively up to 2019, if the wires go up as expected. Units in the Strathclyde area are replaced by EMUs, naturally, whilst the West Highland could be seen off by 158s - my suggestion being that the 15 current Haymarket ones (158726-736/738-741) are refurbished to a similar standard as the Inverness batch (701-725) to make them more suitable for tourist traffic. The GSW Stranraer, Kilmarnock, Dumfries & Newcastle services (for which something like 12 units are required) could be covered by displaced 170s or the 8 Haymarket 'extra' 158s (782/86/89/867-871) being retained, thus a pool of 23 158s to cover both GSW & WHL. Naturally, route clearance and driver training required, but that will be inevitable if the 156s are to go. On top of the 48 displaced 156s, the electrification projects noted should allow for something like another 8 158s or 170s to be displaced, even allowing for a bit of extra capacity and the Borders line.

What I haven't worked though is the potential impact of the deploying HSTs on E/G-A/I services, which will invitably have a large impact on 170 requirements. We do not know if all services will go over to HSTs, personally I doubt it, but it is reasonable to expect something in excess of 20 170s to be directly replaced on these 'ScotRail Express' services. Common opinion seems to be that the 170s are not particularly suitable for the WHL and Far North/Kyle given their gearing and lack of horses for the hilly bits, leaving displacement of a few extras to the Inverness-Aberdeen line as a possibility (my interpretation being that HSTs won't see use on this line, but I may be wrong on that) along with Edinburgh-Perth/Fife/Dundee/Borders becoming solid 170 territory. I doubt retaining the existing fleet of 59 170s can be justified.

Summed up. Something like 70 to 80 DMUs to be displaced, starting progressively from when the E&G main line goes electric in 2016/17 and trickling through as each other project goes 'live' and HSTs arrive, running to 2019/20 and all subject the usual delays and complications. Those 70 to 80 DMUs will include the 48 156s with the balance made up from 158s and 170s in a variety of manners, dependent on what redployment options are chosen for the displaced units.

As for the EMUs, 80 seems a high number, but something around 40 for E&G/Dunblane/Alloa seems about right, with the balance sounding like they are to replace the 30 or so 334s used on the Helensburgh-Edinburgh via Bathgate services. The 334s in turn displace the 314s for scrap, with 318s taking over their turns and add to the extra capacity required to cover requirements for East KIlbride, Barrhead and the Shotts route.

Naturally, any surprises like new stock for the West Highland, changes the situation somewhat.
 

macka

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The WHL stations can take 4x23m units over most of the line, and 6x23m units south from Crianlarich. Even if the 3-car 170s have suitable accleration for the line we'll still lose out on capacity on the Crianlarich-FW-Mallaig section compared to doubled up 156s, so the Sprinters are set to stay.

I agree that the 158s with their AC will be likely the main 'scenic' stock after some refurbishment, with the 156s cascaded south of the border. I don't see ScotRail and TS giving up on their 170s easily.
 

NotATrainspott

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I posted this on another forum and can't be bothered to write it all out again, but the comments are equally relevant to the debate here.

I've spent some considerable time running through the potential impacts of the various stages of E&G and other electrification schemes (Whifflet/Cumbernauld, plus expected Shotts route, East Kilbride and Barrhead) on ScotRail's DMU fleet. Without going into too much detail, the combined effect of those schemes is that all 48 156s can easily be replaced progressively up to 2019, if the wires go up as expected. Units in the Strathclyde area are replaced by EMUs, naturally, whilst the West Highland could be seen off by 158s - my suggestion being that the 15 current Haymarket ones (158726-736/738-741) are refurbished to a similar standard as the Inverness batch (701-725) to make them more suitable for tourist traffic. The GSW Stranraer, Kilmarnock, Dumfries & Newcastle services (for which something like 12 units are required) could be covered by displaced 170s or the 8 Haymarket 'extra' 158s (782/86/89/867-871) being retained, thus a pool of 23 158s to cover both GSW & WHL. Naturally, route clearance and driver training required, but that will be inevitable if the 156s are to go. On top of the 48 displaced 156s, the electrification projects noted should allow for something like another 8 158s or 170s to be displaced, even allowing for a bit of extra capacity and the Borders line.

What I haven't worked though is the potential impact of the deploying HSTs on E/G-A/I services, which will invitably have a large impact on 170 requirements. We do not know if all services will go over to HSTs, personally I doubt it, but it is reasonable to expect something in excess of 20 170s to be directly replaced on these 'ScotRail Express' services. Common opinion seems to be that the 170s are not particularly suitable for the WHL and Far North/Kyle given their gearing and lack of horses for the hilly bits, leaving displacement of a few extras to the Inverness-Aberdeen line as a possibility (my interpretation being that HSTs won't see use on this line, but I may be wrong on that) along with Edinburgh-Perth/Fife/Dundee/Borders becoming solid 170 territory. I doubt retaining the existing fleet of 59 170s can be justified.

Summed up. Something like 70 to 80 DMUs to be displaced, starting progressively from when the E&G main line goes electric in 2016/17 and trickling through as each other project goes 'live' and HSTs arrive, running to 2019/20 and all subject the usual delays and complications. Those 70 to 80 DMUs will include the 48 156s with the balance made up from 158s and 170s in a variety of manners, dependent on what redployment options are chosen for the displaced units.

As for the EMUs, 80 seems a high number, but something around 40 for E&G/Dunblane/Alloa seems about right, with the balance sounding like they are to replace the 30 or so 334s used on the Helensburgh-Edinburgh via Bathgate services. The 334s in turn displace the 314s for scrap, with 318s taking over their turns and add to the extra capacity required to cover requirements for East KIlbride, Barrhead and the Shotts route.

Naturally, any surprises like new stock for the West Highland, changes the situation somewhat.

Aberdeen to Inverness will be run by HSTs. The ITT did allow its level of InterCity accommodation to be different but I don't think anyone will complain about what they're getting. The Scotland 2014 interview with an Abellio representative said that the final 10 of 80 trains would be delivered in the last three years of the contract.
 

158722

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Aberdeen to Inverness will be run by HSTs. The ITT did allow its level of InterCity accommodation to be different but I don't think anyone will complain about what they're getting. The Scotland 2014 interview with an Abellio representative said that the final 10 of 80 trains would be delivered in the last three years of the contract.

Indeed, I've noticed that now, but it does not specify every train will be HST. 3 sets would be required to run a two-hourly service between Inverness and Aberdeen for example, with units used on the alternating hour services perhaps to give the hourly frequency promised.

I also note that 6 diagrams are required to cover Glasgow to Aberdeen, 7 on the current Edinburgh-Aberdeen-Inverurie pattern and 8 for Glasgow/Edinburgh-Inverness, assuming the promised hourly pattern north of Perth with two-hourly departures from both E & G.

Assuming a couple of off-peak/contra peak unit diagrams, that all stacks up to something like 22-24 HST diagrams, from the 27 sets apparently noted. Seems do-able...
 

Altnabreac

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I've spent some considerable time running through the potential impacts of the various stages of E&G and other electrification schemes (Whifflet/Cumbernauld, plus expected Shotts route, East Kilbride and Barrhead) on ScotRail's DMU fleet. Without going into too much detail, the combined effect of those schemes is that all 48 156s can easily be replaced progressively up to 2019, if the wires go up as expected.

Makes sense but as I understand it only Shotts (and possibly Maryhill if included in EGIP) are due for completion by 2019 (i.e. during CP5).

East Kilbride / Barrhead likely to be early CP6 (so 2020 / 2021) and those routes may need 156s until then unless replacing them with 158s instead for a short period.

Units in the Strathclyde area are replaced by EMUs, naturally, whilst the West Highland could be seen off by 158s - my suggestion being that the 15 current Haymarket ones (158726-736/738-741) are refurbished to a similar standard as the Inverness batch (701-725) to make them more suitable for tourist traffic. The GSW Stranraer, Kilmarnock, Dumfries & Newcastle services (for which something like 12 units are required) could be covered by displaced 170s or the 8 Haymarket 'extra' 158s (782/86/89/867-871) being retained, thus a pool of 23 158s to cover both GSW & WHL. Naturally, route clearance and driver training required, but that will be inevitable if the 156s are to go. On top of the 48 displaced 156s, the electrification projects noted should allow for something like another 8 158s or 170s to be displaced, even allowing for a bit of extra capacity and the Borders line.

The franchise brochure lists the routes to be covered by the "scenic stock" as:
West Highland Line
Kyle of Lochalsh
Far North Line
Stranraer
Glasgow - Dumfries - Carlisle
Borders Rail

It seems certain this refurbishment will be of a single class and seems increasingly likely that this will be refurbished 158s as they are the only stock that seems to meet the requirements of all these lines (i.e. 90mph operation of Borders Rail).

What I haven't worked though is the potential impact of the deploying HSTs on E/G-A/I services, which will invitably have a large impact on 170 requirements. We do not know if all services will go over to HSTs, personally I doubt it, but it is reasonable to expect something in excess of 20 170s to be directly replaced on these 'ScotRail Express' services. Common opinion seems to be that the 170s are not particularly suitable for the WHL and Far North/Kyle given their gearing and lack of horses for the hilly bits, leaving displacement of a few extras to the Inverness-Aberdeen line as a possibility (my interpretation being that HSTs won't see use on this line, but I may be wrong on that) along with Edinburgh-Perth/Fife/Dundee/Borders becoming solid 170 territory. I doubt retaining the existing fleet of 59 170s can be justified.

The tender is quite clear that all Edinburgh / Glasgow - Aberdeen and Edinburgh / Glasgow - Inverness services need to be formed of the new Intercity Stock. It is unlikely that Abellio would choose to commission 2 expensive upgrades to make some 170s comply with this stock requirement for the "Intercity" specification (tender is clear that current 170s would need considerable work to make them compliant).

I suspect the Fife Circle and Dundee Semi Fast routes will become an all 170 operation, although an alternative is for it to become all 158 operated with the entire 170 fleet sent southwards. (Not sure if Scotrail would actually have enough 158s to operate all the scenic routes and Fife Circle /Edinburgh - Dundee? Probably not?)

Summed up. Something like 70 to 80 DMUs to be displaced, starting progressively from when the E&G main line goes electric in 2016/17 and trickling through as each other project goes 'live' and HSTs arrive, running to 2019/20 and all subject the usual delays and complications. Those 70 to 80 DMUs will include the 48 156s with the balance made up from 158s and 170s in a variety of manners, dependent on what redployment options are chosen for the displaced units.

Sounds about right to me, with the only caveat being that some 156s might still be needed for Strathclyde diesel routes until 2021 or so rather than all being surplus by 2019.


As for the EMUs, 80 seems a high number, but something around 40 for E&G/Dunblane/Alloa seems about right, with the balance sounding like they are to replace the 30 or so 334s used on the Helensburgh-Edinburgh via Bathgate services. The 334s in turn displace the 314s for scrap, with 318s taking over their turns and add to the extra capacity required to cover requirements for East KIlbride, Barrhead and the Shotts route.

Again makes sense, I suspect given the tender requirement for things like Wifi and DOO CCTV to be provided on the Glasgow South Electrics by December 2019 that provides an absolute end date for the 314s to be disposed of as it won't be economic to spend money on doing them up for a couple of years.

So the order for 80 new EMUs over the full franchise will effectively need to cover:
  • Edinburgh - Glasgow via Falkirk electrification (December 2017)
  • Edinburgh / Glasgow - Dunblane / Alloa electrification (December 2018)
  • Glasgow - Falkirk Grahamston electrification (December 2018)
  • Enable EMU cascade to allow 314s to be scrapped (December 2019)
  • Shotts line electrification (December 2019)
  • East Kilbride, Barrhead, Maryhill electrification (2020/2021)
  • Any other lengthening needed on the existing electrified routes.

Someone could try and put a number on each of those requirements and I suspect we'd be getting close to 80 trains by then.
 

Yew

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I was thinking that too, will there be any pressure to increase linespeeds to compensate for the lost time?

There might not be any lost time. 170's are rather sluggish units. Their 168 cousins are out accelerated by Chilterns 67+mk3 rakes, and from the latter days of HST operation with Virgin, we know a 2+5 HST can keep up with Voyager timings, and voyagers are one of the most powerful DMU's around.
 

matchmaker

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There might not be any lost time. 170's are rather sluggish units. Their 168 cousins are out accelerated by Chilterns 67+mk3 rakes, and from the latter days of HST operation with Virgin, we know a 2+5 HST can keep up with Voyager timings, and voyagers are one of the most powerful DMU's around.

Indeed. I suspect a 156 would leave a 170 for dead acceleration wise. The only services a 170 can use their 100mph capability is Glasgow-Edinburgh and Glasgow/Edinburgh- Aberdeen/Inverness services. Any other services will be timed for either 90mph or 75mph. Any services (like Dunblane-Edinburgh) with a lot of stops suit a 156 or 158 better.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I haven't seen anything yet about maintenance strategy (or about financing the new EMUs).
Where would the Scotrail HSTs be maintained?
EC HSTs will be phased out by 2019, with some of the facilities at Craigentinny being reused for IEP (under Hitachi management).
The obvious HST site is also Craigentinny, but can it service the entire fleet?
Will new facilities be needed at Inverness, Aberdeen or Glasgow?

The Hitachi EMU fleet will also need a base. Haymarket?
Or will they share common Hitachi management at Craigentinny?
There will be significant changes at Corkerhill and Haymarket too with the eventual loss of much of the DMU fleet.
 
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edwin_m

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Apparently the main base for the EC IEP fleet is Doncaster but some servicing will take place elsewhere. Quite likely Hitachi will build or take over a depot in the Edinburgh area to do both these and the E-G fleet, with HSTs based at Craigentinny which would otherwise only have the XC micro-fleet to look after.
 

Aictos

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Just wondering but will both routes between Glasgow and Edinburgh via both Falkirk High/Grahamston be wired up?

How many HSTs will Abellio need considering the hourly service out of Inverness....
 

sprinterguy

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The Hitachi EMU fleet will also need a base. Haymarket?
Or will they share common Hitachi management at Craigentinny?
There will be significant changes at Corkerhill and Haymarket too with the eventual loss of much of the DMU fleet.
The Hitachi EMUs will be maintained at a new depot at Millerhill, which is being installed as part of the EGIP electrification:
http://www.egip.info/projects/millerhill-electric-train-depot
Millerhill Electric Train Depot
To support the continued sustainable growth of Scotland’s railway a new electric train depot is required for a new East of Scotland electric train fleet. Network Rail’s existing Millerhill railway yard has been identified and selected for site development...

Existing train stabling and depot facilities are already operating at full capacity and cannot be easily expanded

Transport Scotland, First ScotRail and Network Rail examined a number of potential sites in Central Scotland for the proposed new facility and Millerhill was identified as the most suitable strategic site with easy rail access to Edinburgh Waverley station and is in any case already an operational railway facility
With the loss of the majority of the diesel routes currently provided for by Haymarket depot by 2020, it does make you wonder what the medium term future will be for the depot...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I haven't seen anything yet about maintenance strategy (or about financing the new EMUs).
Where would the Scotrail HSTs be maintained?
EC HSTs will be phased out by 2019, with some of the facilities at Craigentinny being reused for IEP (under Hitachi management).
The obvious HST site is also Craigentinny, but can it service the entire fleet?
Will new facilities be needed at Inverness, Aberdeen or Glasgow?
It's worth considering that, if Scotrail operate their HSTs in 2+5 formation, then the total number of vehicles won't be a great deal more than Craigentinny's current allocation of 2+9 East Coast sets. Even less so, if Crosscountry dispose of their HST sets by 2019.

Plus, as mentioned above, Haymarket depot will probably have a reasonable amount of spare capacity for stabling. I would expect to see the present stabling facilities at Aberdeen getting an upgrade as a minimum, too.
 

cf111

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I haven't seen anything yet about maintenance strategy (or about financing the new EMUs).
Where would the Scotrail HSTs be maintained?
EC HSTs will be phased out by 2019, with some of the facilities at Craigentinny being reused for IEP (under Hitachi management).
The obvious HST site is also Craigentinny, but can it service the entire fleet?
Will new facilities be needed at Inverness, Aberdeen or Glasgow?

The Hitachi EMU fleet will also need a base. Haymarket?
Or will they share common Hitachi management at Craigentinny?
There will be significant changes at Corkerhill and Haymarket too with the eventual loss of much of the DMU fleet.

Inverness may well be losing the major sleeper work they do, so that might be an option. Clayhills (Aberdeen) is getting an IEP facility.
 

DXMachina

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They could go for the ultra-cool version and repaint them in the classic Scotrail livery (InterCity but with the blue stripe instead of red)

Never happen, of course...
 

cf111

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They could go for the ultra-cool version and repaint them in the classic Scotrail livery (InterCity but with the blue stripe instead of red)

Never happen, of course...

I actually quite like the mocked-HST in the brochure:

0188637339.jpg


Not quite BR ScotRail, but the best of the current HST paintjobs IMO.
 

The Ham

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Pretty sure this scotches any need to ever order any more DMUs again assuming the electrification programme doesn't get canned.

That is 30+ units coming south by all reasonable expectations, additional to the electrification cascades.

Something to remember is that 1 train isn't the same as another, so a 156 (with about 150 seats) can replace more than one pacer (with about 100 seats).

There may be other ways to increase capacity without increasing train numbers. For instance two 156's replace a 3 coach DMU, which then replaces two pacers on services where they are always run in pairs.

All in all, a good way to improve the number and/or quality of DMU's in service by the start of CP6.
 

TheWalrus

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How are they expecting HSTs to reduce journey times over 170s? Surely HSTs have slower acceleration so linespeeds must be 100+.
 

najaB

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How are they expecting HSTs to reduce journey times over 170s? Surely HSTs have slower acceleration so linespeeds must be 100+.
A 9+2 HST isn't the quickest accelerator, but at the expected 5+2 the power/weight ratio is almost 80% higher. Some posters have said that they expect the power cars to be re-geared to provide more low-speed 'grunt' as there isn't much need for 125mph capacity.
 

158722

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Just wondering but will both routes between Glasgow and Edinburgh via both Falkirk High/Grahamston be wired up?

How many HSTs will Abellio need considering the hourly service out of Inverness....

Hourly from Inverness, alternating between Edinburgh and Glasgow as destinations requires 8 diagrams.

Glasgow-Aberdeen requires 6, the current Edinburgh-Aberdeen-Inverurie requires 7 and a theoretical 2-hourly service between Inverness and Aberdeen, 3 sets.
 

SC318250

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Just a thought removing 170 fleet, would there there be good enough cover from Haymarket 158s to cover Dundee, Borders, Stranraer and Carlisle, with Fife going 156s with a refurb similar to the Anglia refurb?
 

Topgun333

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Something to remember is that 1 train isn't the same as another, so a 156 (with about 150 seats) can replace more than one pacer (with about 100 seats).

There may be other ways to increase capacity without increasing train numbers. For instance two 156's replace a 3 coach DMU, which then replaces two pacers on services where they are always run in pairs.

All in all, a good way to improve the number and/or quality of DMU's in service by the start of CP6.

It's not just about seat capacity though. The end door location of 156 makes them unsuitable for frequent stopping services which needs to be borne in mind when talking about replacing 150s and pacers.
 
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