You do realise that question was answered by numerous posters, three days ago?
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Northern introduce pre-Christmas loco hauled services
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You do realise that question was answered by numerous posters, three days ago?
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Viscount702
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And weren't they just great.
DiscoStu
Member
I haven't boarded a train as an enthusiast in seventeen years -I might come out of retirement for one day only if that happened
northernchris
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Was looking on Realtime Trains for this Saturday as am planning a trip around Manchester. There appears to be a number of alterations to the usual timetable, most notably the Blackpool - Huddersfield service is being split at Victoria. There's also a few additional services running between Wigan North Western and Victoria via Atherton, and between Preston and Victoria. Does this mean Northern have secured a loco hauled set or will the extra services be run using their existing fleet? Also, given in a separate thread there's a current shortage of traincrew at some depots how have Northern managed to find the staff to run these?
thealexweb
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All the services on RTT say 14x and 15x as normal.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...14/11/08/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
northernchris
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I thought that's what they were timed as rather than allocated?
PHILIPE
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That means they are timed to run at 75 mph max and NOT what is diagrammed. This is being pointed out time and time again on the Forum
Yes, they were.
Personally, I think the idea that the public would rather forego extra capacity or more comfortable/spacious rolling stock (particularly on routes that are often standing room only) just because they have to encounter a slam door quite preposterous.
wbbminerals
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The Tour de France specials were down in the 'system' as being operated by DRS, so presumably any loco hauled services would say they were operated by 'ZZ'?
Note that was TfGM said was the option of extra services using loco-hauled was being examined, not the usual timetabled services being run to loco-hauled times. Splitting Blackpool North-Huddersfield services at Victoria may relate to planning to use doubled up services and not being able to stop at stations between Huddersfield and Stalybridge without locking a unit out-of-use.
Wyvern
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Will there be notices telling younger passengers how to open the doors? I imagine the dwell time will be longer at each stop as the guard walks the length of the train shutting them all. 
Does anyone know what stock this will be? Praying for 2 x DRS 47s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Diagram looks as follows:
08+24 Preston - Buckshaw Parkway 08+33
08.35 Buckshaw Parkway - Manchester Victoria 09.27
09.32 Manchester Victoria - Preston 10.27
10+32 Preston - Chorley 10+44
10.45 Chorley - Manchester Victoria 11.28
11.37 Manchester Victoria - Preston 12.32
12+36 Preston - Buckshaw Parkway 12+45
12.47 Buckshaw Parkway - Manchester Victoria 13.37
13.52 Manchester Victoria - Chorley 14.34
14+36 Chorley - Preston 14+48
15.12 Preston - Manchester Victoria 16.12
16.17 Manchester Victoria - Chorley 16.57
16+59 Chorley - Preston 17+12
17.29 Preston - Manchester Victoria 18.18
18.29 Manchester Victoria - Buckshaw Parkway 19.18
19+21 Buckshaw Parkway - Preston 19+31
19.37 Preston - Manchester Victoria 20.18
20.28 Manchester Victoria - Preston 21.28
21.33 Preston - Manchester Victoria 22.15
22.20 Manchester Victoria - Preston 23.12
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Diagram looks as follows:
08+24 Preston - Buckshaw Parkway 08+33
08.35 Buckshaw Parkway - Manchester Victoria 09.27
09.32 Manchester Victoria - Preston 10.27
10+32 Preston - Chorley 10+44
10.45 Chorley - Manchester Victoria 11.28
11.37 Manchester Victoria - Preston 12.32
12+36 Preston - Buckshaw Parkway 12+45
12.47 Buckshaw Parkway - Manchester Victoria 13.37
13.52 Manchester Victoria - Chorley 14.34
14+36 Chorley - Preston 14+48
15.12 Preston - Manchester Victoria 16.12
16.17 Manchester Victoria - Chorley 16.57
16+59 Chorley - Preston 17+12
17.29 Preston - Manchester Victoria 18.18
18.29 Manchester Victoria - Buckshaw Parkway 19.18
19+21 Buckshaw Parkway - Preston 19+31
19.37 Preston - Manchester Victoria 20.18
20.28 Manchester Victoria - Preston 21.28
21.33 Preston - Manchester Victoria 22.15
22.20 Manchester Victoria - Preston 23.12
andrewg70
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dont forget some are headcode 5Z??
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Very odd that the train is running from Preston to Buckshaw out of service. Anyone know why?
Neil
theblackwatch
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No doubt in the past, all trains have been full out of Preston, meaning Buckshaw passengers struggle to get on. Thsi way it puts Preston passengers on one service, and Buckshaw ones on another, spreading the load. It also prevents a train load of cranks from camping out on the train for the day.
Class 170101
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Times available in Realtime trains if one wishes to take a look.
Darren R
Established Member
How busy have the trains been (both the strengthened, regular services and the extras) into Manchester and Leeds today? Watching the trains as they go past the house from Manchester Victoria to Blackburn/Clitheroe this afternoon and evening they seem to have been surprisingly quiet for a Saturday (although I didn't see how busy they were this morning heading into Manchester! 
)
That's a fine way to talk about fellow Forum members!
)That's a fine way to talk about fellow Forum members!
But it is quite accurate!theblackwatch said:It also prevents a train load of cranks from camping out on the train for the day.That's a fine way to talk about fellow Forum members!
The Summer Saturdays 57s hauled trains down here where known as the veg express!
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I still think the way to solve this issues with cranks/veg/enthusiasts besieging the trains is to deploy them where the capacity isn't needed to free up units to be used where it is. So, for example, why not throw a bunch of LHCS trains on the Settle and Carlisle for the day to free up some 158s? Or perhaps on the Tyne Valley to free up 142s and 156s? Or maybe the Cumbrian Coast?
It can't be logistically much more complicated than what they're doing in any case and surely overall it's a win for everyone? The actual passengers that Northern are trying to help get more capacity whilst the enthusiasts get to enjoy their LHCS!
Or am I missing something?
It can't be logistically much more complicated than what they're doing in any case and surely overall it's a win for everyone? The actual passengers that Northern are trying to help get more capacity whilst the enthusiasts get to enjoy their LHCS!
Or am I missing something?
causton
Established Member
If they don't make the train "special" will people notice though?
They might think "oh great, another rubbish pacer" even though it might be a more frequent service, or 2 together rather than the usual one. If it was going to be busy, it might still be busy and they might not even realise!
If a "fancy" loco hauled train turned up instead they might realise "wow, they've actually put on an extra train for us!"
They might think "oh great, another rubbish pacer" even though it might be a more frequent service, or 2 together rather than the usual one. If it was going to be busy, it might still be busy and they might not even realise!
If a "fancy" loco hauled train turned up instead they might realise "wow, they've actually put on an extra train for us!"
northernchris
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How busy have the trains been (both the strengthened, regular services and the extras) into Manchester and Leeds today? Watching the trains as they go past the house from Manchester Victoria to Blackburn/Clitheroe this afternoon and evening they seem to have been surprisingly quiet for a Saturday (although I didn't see how busy they were this morning heading into Manchester!
I was in Manchester yesterday and although the trains were reasonably busy the Christmas markets haven't started yet and the weather wasn't great. The majority of the Calder Valley services were strengthened and at least one Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield diagram was 142+150 so a massive improvement on previous years
hairyhandedfool
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Whatever you move has to be in normal service Monday to Friday and possibly Sundays too.
You'd have to assume whoever is providing the trains is also providing the drivers for it, as no Northern drivers would 'sign' it. I think it unlikely that drivers on, for example, Leeds-Carlisle runs would be familiar with the Preston-Manchester run, so there is potential cost of extra drivers to consider.
Also, you'd have to consider capacity of the train, a five coach loco-hauled train* with a coach load of 'Cranks' is better than a two or three coach 158 without the 'Cranks'. Much simpler to have the loco hauled stock on the additionals IMO.
[*I have no idea how many coaches are to be used]
Indeed, the Christmas Markets will be open on Friday, however, the 'big bang' is expected the week after that.
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GarethJohn
Member
Will Northern Rail ever adequately provide train transport for Old Trafford on match days?
They could do with putting some extra Trains and carriages when Man United are on to support the Metrolink.
Is one 3-car train at 13:40 really adequate for matches that 75,000 attend?
Then on the return a 3-car train turned up. It took 1 hour from the queue to Manc Picc, with those at the end of the queue being told ''you will not get a Train tonight'' before it turned 17:40.
London Midland provide a far more frequent and better service than this for Walsall!!
They could do with putting some extra Trains and carriages when Man United are on to support the Metrolink.
Is one 3-car train at 13:40 really adequate for matches that 75,000 attend?
Then on the return a 3-car train turned up. It took 1 hour from the queue to Manc Picc, with those at the end of the queue being told ''you will not get a Train tonight'' before it turned 17:40.
London Midland provide a far more frequent and better service than this for Walsall!!
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Northern normally provide 3 trains to the match, and 3/4 on the return. These are operated by 3 car 323s if they've continued in normal service, or 6 cars 323s if they can be spared from normal service.
The problem is that Northern has 17 323s and requires, from memory, 15 in service at the peaks. One is out for Heavy Maintenance and the other out for more general Maintenance. To provide the Old Trafford service diagrams are normally amended to get the units down there and back, and to continue in normal passenger service. So a Crewe service will run straight through to Old Trafford, and will run direct from Old Trafford to Stoke on its return. (Probably ECS to Oxford Road or Piccadilly though). As for Saturday/Sundays there may be more spare units depending on the maintenance requirements.
6 car trains cannot be run for two reasons - firstly there's not enough units (normally) to provide 6 cars without cancelling passenger services. These are rated as more important for commuters and are paid for (in part) by TfGM who expect them to run. The second reason is that the platforms and turn around points aren't long enough for a 6 car 323. Alderley Edge sidings and Wilmslow sidings should accommodate a 4 car set but not more. Macclesfield can handle 6 car sets, but the normal platform at Stoke is P.3 which can't. Problem then is where do we put the Stoke train to be out of the way of the expresses. Crewe isn't a problem but a 6 car set will block up P.1 as it won't fit in the siding and some trains have a layover in Crewe. Manchester Airport will accommodate a 6 car set but it might cause platform capacity issues.
Alternatively diesels could be used, but Northern don't really have enough of those either for normal services. Especially in leaf fall. They also have the added complication in that they shouldn't be placed on 323 diagrams as they are much slower to accelerate and brake. They are barred from travelling beyond Macclesfield due to the delays they cause.(There's one Crewe to Piccadilly Diesel and one Macclesfield to Piccadilly Diesel diagram but both of these have altered timings to fit into the timetable.)
Also any additional trains require staffing, pathing etc which adds another layer of complication. If staff can't be provided or Network Rail can't path the services they can't run.
Finally the comparison to Walsall is not overly valid. Walsall gets 4 trains an hour to Birmingham New Street at the moment (09:30, Monday) when there definitely isn't a match on. Its a station in regular passenger use and this makes it easier to serve - because units, paths and traincrew are already booked to call there. Old Trafford is a turnback only platform, open only on Match days on an already extremely busy and overcrowded section of railway. *Anything* calling at Old Trafford is an additional service. Additional trains cannot call there - the Liverpool services would need to do some interesting shunting to get in and out of the platform.
So, in short, until Northern gets more units, and more paths, or Old Trafford gets rebuilt as a proper station with 2 platforms etc, you're just going to have to live with what you've got I'm afraid.
The problem is that Northern has 17 323s and requires, from memory, 15 in service at the peaks. One is out for Heavy Maintenance and the other out for more general Maintenance. To provide the Old Trafford service diagrams are normally amended to get the units down there and back, and to continue in normal passenger service. So a Crewe service will run straight through to Old Trafford, and will run direct from Old Trafford to Stoke on its return. (Probably ECS to Oxford Road or Piccadilly though). As for Saturday/Sundays there may be more spare units depending on the maintenance requirements.
6 car trains cannot be run for two reasons - firstly there's not enough units (normally) to provide 6 cars without cancelling passenger services. These are rated as more important for commuters and are paid for (in part) by TfGM who expect them to run. The second reason is that the platforms and turn around points aren't long enough for a 6 car 323. Alderley Edge sidings and Wilmslow sidings should accommodate a 4 car set but not more. Macclesfield can handle 6 car sets, but the normal platform at Stoke is P.3 which can't. Problem then is where do we put the Stoke train to be out of the way of the expresses. Crewe isn't a problem but a 6 car set will block up P.1 as it won't fit in the siding and some trains have a layover in Crewe. Manchester Airport will accommodate a 6 car set but it might cause platform capacity issues.
Alternatively diesels could be used, but Northern don't really have enough of those either for normal services. Especially in leaf fall. They also have the added complication in that they shouldn't be placed on 323 diagrams as they are much slower to accelerate and brake. They are barred from travelling beyond Macclesfield due to the delays they cause.(There's one Crewe to Piccadilly Diesel and one Macclesfield to Piccadilly Diesel diagram but both of these have altered timings to fit into the timetable.)
Also any additional trains require staffing, pathing etc which adds another layer of complication. If staff can't be provided or Network Rail can't path the services they can't run.
Finally the comparison to Walsall is not overly valid. Walsall gets 4 trains an hour to Birmingham New Street at the moment (09:30, Monday) when there definitely isn't a match on. Its a station in regular passenger use and this makes it easier to serve - because units, paths and traincrew are already booked to call there. Old Trafford is a turnback only platform, open only on Match days on an already extremely busy and overcrowded section of railway. *Anything* calling at Old Trafford is an additional service. Additional trains cannot call there - the Liverpool services would need to do some interesting shunting to get in and out of the platform.
So, in short, until Northern gets more units, and more paths, or Old Trafford gets rebuilt as a proper station with 2 platforms etc, you're just going to have to live with what you've got I'm afraid.
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Metrolink have decided to close the line between Cornbrook and the city centre on the first weekend of the Christmas markets (replacement bus operating) so if Northern don't strengthen Mid-Cheshire services I don't expect Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme passengers to be able to board.
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