Velaro UK construction progress (New Eurostar rolling stock)

BananaRepublic · 27 Oct 2014

Emyr said:
Constructed 1992-1996 so 24 - 28 years.

The 319s being cascaded to Northern are about the same age. (Constructed 1987-1990)

Your maths is a out by a little bit.

The Class 373's are already 18 - 22 years old and would be between 30 and 35 years old by the time the first phase of HS2 opens (London - Birmingham) in 2026/27. That's when they are due to be finally retired anyway.

They would be 35 to 40+ years old (if still in existence) when phase two is due to open.

I'm doubtful there can be a comparison with stock like the 319's, as high speed trains appear to generally have a shorter expected working life.

There's no Holy Grail in achieving very long lives for trains. If they achieve their designed and economic life expectancy, job done. It doesn't matter if that is 30 years or 30 weeks. Realistically, it's usually between 25 and 35 years.

There's no magical need for them to be kept running for longer periods of time and quite frankly, if you have to base the economics of a new build fleet on more than 30 years use, then something is drastically wrong in the cost of the trains and in the thinking behind the economic model employed.

RailUK Forums

jon0844 · 27 Oct 2014

ainsworth74 said:
Err HS2 Phase 1 is due to open in 2026 so they'll be between 30 and 34 years old hardly the sort of stock you want running your brand new high speed services!

Can't we let them rust until 2026 and then cascade them to Northern? Or would that still be too soon?

AM9 · 27 Oct 2014

jonmorris0844 said:
Can't we let them rust until 2026 and then cascade them to Northern? Or would that still be too soon?

We'd have to convert them to three-car first!

DXMachina · 27 Oct 2014

ainsworth74 said:
Err HS2 Phase 1 is due to open in 2026 so they'll be between 30 and 34 years old hardly the sort of stock you want running your brand new high speed services!

Yet 39 year old HSTs will be welcomed in Scotland soon.

Bletchleyite · 27 Oct 2014

DXMachina said:
Yet 39 year old HSTs will be welcomed in Scotland soon.

Will they actually be welcomed other than by rail enthusiasts? Quite a lot of people don't like Chiltern's Mk3s - not everyone does like them.

Capacity is of course welcome anywhere...

Neil

Chris125 · 28 Oct 2014

Emyr said:
Would they not be cascaded onto HS2 or HS3?

Aside from their old age, HS2 assumes the use of 225mph trainsets like the distributed-drive AGV so it's hard to see a conventional 186mph design being an option. HS3 is more likely to suit slower commuter-style units like the Javelin 395s.

Chris

SpacePhoenix · 28 Oct 2014

Provided a future AGV Duplex met all the tunnel regs, would there be anything to stop a future AGV Duplex being used in the tunnel, HS1 or HS2?

southern442 · 28 Oct 2014

I have always had an idea in the back of my mind about cutting them up and using the carriages to make 3 or 4 car luxury DMU's for TPE, the Uckfield line or the West of England main line. You could convert them into EMU's but that's half the fun :lol:

High Dyke · 28 Oct 2014

I read that some of the current Eurostar stock is being scrapped, though the 'North of London' sets are still in service. I appreciate there were a few issues regarding the use of such stock on the ECML many years ago, but would the stock still be suitable for a dedicated service (i believe it spent most of its time on 'White Rose' Leeds / Kings Cross workings)? Possibly until the new IEP stock becomes available. Then again that means Government spending money they haven't got...

starrymarkb · 28 Oct 2014

There are a lot of restrictions on 373s on the UK classic lines due to their power draw, how the articulated coaches behave on bends, two high speed pans up etc etc

jopsuk · 28 Oct 2014

SpacePhoenix said:
Provided a future AGV Duplex met all the tunnel regs, would there be anything to stop a future AGV Duplex being used in the tunnel, HS1 or HS2?

No. The tunnel HS1 and HS2 are specified to allow GC+ loading gauge, which is bigger than current TGV Duplex. All European double deck stock will fit- indeed, double deck stock built to fully take advantage of GC+ may have difficulty operating elsewhere in Europe as it would be larger than other European DD.

The Tunnel itself has a truly massive loading gauge, which allows double deck wagons with plenty of headroom and a flat lower deck (no "well") for the car shuttles and double decker coaches (maximum 4.2m high) to be carried on the single deck shuttle wagons- but those trains cannot leave the Eurotunnel system

BananaRepublic · 28 Oct 2014

SpacePhoenix said:
Provided a future AGV Duplex met all the tunnel regs, would there be anything to stop a future AGV Duplex being used in the tunnel, HS1 or HS2?

As jopsuk says, no problem.
Also note that HS1 is basically a French LGV line and built to those standards.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

High Dyke said:
I read that some of the current Eurostar stock is being scrapped, though the 'North of London' sets are still in service. I appreciate there were a few issues regarding the use of such stock on the ECML many years ago, but would the stock still be suitable for a dedicated service (i believe it spent most of its time on 'White Rose' Leeds / Kings Cross workings)? Possibly until the new IEP stock becomes available. Then again that means Government spending money they haven't got...

When the old Eurostar operation was replaced with the new Eurostar company (Eurostar International Ltd.) 4 years ago in 2010, I believe that the Class 373 sets in French domestic use with SNCF (both 3 capitals and NoL sets), were transferred or sold to SNCF.
So they no longer belong to Eurostar in any shape or form.

As already mentioned, the first few of these sets have either already been scrapped, or are in the pipeline to be scrapped soon. As such it's unlikely any survivors will ever make their way back over to this side of the channel.
Even if they did, the cost of re-converting them for UK domestic use would be prohibitive and the fleet size too small to allow any sort of viable operation.

Also, who would service them or provide technical support?
Even if those services were bought in from Eurostar, the cost would be too high.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

southern442 said:
I have always had an idea in the back of my mind about cutting them up and using the carriages to make 3 or 4 car luxury DMU's for TPE, the Uckfield line or the West of England main line. You could convert them into EMU's but that's half the fun

"DMU's" ???
"Converting them into EMU's" ???

As mostly articulated vehicles, you'd have a job trying to make 3 or 4 car trains out of them.

I take it you said that in jest?

.

Peter Sarf · 29 Oct 2014

SpacePhoenix said:
How many years lifespan have the 373s realistically got before they'll be considered to be life expired and goto the scrapheap?

New thread anyone ?.

Wondering if most of the posts #45-#72 are really about the "Future of 373s".

I suppose the problem is that there is not much going on with the new 374s in reality (is there ?).

cjmillsnun · 31 Oct 2014

BananaRepublic said:
When the old Eurostar operation was replaced with the new Eurostar company (Eurostar International Ltd.) 4 years ago in 2010, I believe that the Class 373 sets in French domestic use with SNCF (both 3 capitals and NoL sets), were transferred or sold to SNCF.
So they no longer belong to Eurostar in any shape or form.

As already mentioned, the first few of these sets have either already been scrapped, or are in the pipeline to be scrapped soon. As such it's unlikely any survivors will ever make their way back over to this side of the channel.
Even if they did, the cost of re-converting them for UK domestic use would be prohibitive and the fleet size too small to allow any sort of viable operation.

Agreed, I suspect that e* will be offered parts from the scrapped SNCF 373s which will help keep the 3 capitals fleet going.

33Hz · 6 Nov 2014

If they have to recertify them for Channel Tunnel use then surely they'd have to individually certify any additional 374s too?

I'd have thought that a few extra 373s would be useful to offer service to new French destinations such as Brittany and Bordeaux while the 374s concentrate on the Dutch and German markets. At least mothball them until those new HSLs open in a couple of years.

Does anyone know if Eurostar were offered them?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Word from an SNCF contact is that the three spare 32xx are already scrapped but the 33xx NoL sets are going to be repatriated to the UK after some modifications.

I'm glad about the latter as they would be some of the lowest mileage units in the fleet, but still think it is bizarre that Eurostar are forking out £480m for new trains, some of which will be used to bolster London - Paris services, while three not life-expired sets that would do that job are cut up.

ainsworth74 · 6 Nov 2014

It will all depend on their condition I guess. If they were totally thrashed Eurostar may have felt it made more sense to tack on an order for some extra new units seeing as they're buying new units anyway rather than refurbishing them back up to standard. Also were SNCF selling as weren't those units owned by SNCF?

33Hz · 6 Nov 2014

I guess that's the point: SNCF is the major shareholder of Eurostar, so you'd think it would be in their interest.

There's a major mid life overhaul going on anyway, so it would also be a tack on to that. Oh well, apparently academic now.

jon0844 · 6 Nov 2014

The mid life overhaul is taking so long, the trains will be scrapped before the final bit of carpet is laid.

D6975 · 6 Nov 2014

starrymarkb said:
There are a lot of restrictions on 373s on the UK classic lines due to their power draw, how the articulated coaches behave on bends, two high speed pans up etc etc

Splitting them in two with new DVTs solves two out of 3...
And makes them a length that most stations can handle too.

AM9 · 6 Nov 2014

D6975 said:
Splitting them in two with new DVTs solves two out of 3...
And makes them a length that most stations can handle too.

Is the power draw on both AC & DC or just the inadequacies of 3rd rail?

dgl · 6 Nov 2014

AM9 said:
Is the power draw on both AC & DC or just the inadequacies of 3rd rail?

Both AC and DC as I am aware, Current was severely limited on DC (3rd rail) compared to AC anyway.

A 373 set is 12.2MW (5.7MW 3000V DC/3.4MW 750V DC) compared to a class 91 which is only 4.8MW.

SpacePhoenix · 6 Nov 2014

Did they at least cannibalise the scraped 373s of any usable spare parts for use on the remaining 373s?

33Hz · 6 Nov 2014

True, but only when accelerating at full power or cruising at beyond service speed.

As D6975 says, no reason they can't be split. The first pre-series train had 7 coaches. Half the set would be ~half the weight and ~half the power requirement. Cruising at 125 mph they'd take under 4 MW as well.

cjmillsnun · 6 Nov 2014

SpacePhoenix said:
Did they at least cannibalise the scraped 373s of any usable spare parts for use on the remaining 373s?

I would hope so. Unless they are completely trashed.

jopsuk · 6 Nov 2014

I'm struggling to work out what "Reconfigure Class 373 half sets with a new (presumably aerodynamic) driving trailer" actually is the answer to?

ainsworth74 · 6 Nov 2014

The enthusiast community basically never wants to scrap any train ever. Especially popular ones. Therefore, bearing this in mind, what possibly way can we keep the 373s in service?

I think that's the question that's being answered.

Marklund · 6 Nov 2014

jopsuk said:
I'm struggling to work out what "Reconfigure Class 373 half sets with a new (presumably aerodynamic) driving trailer" actually is the answer to?

Crying out for the 442/Eurostar half set mashup.

SpacePhoenix · 7 Nov 2014

Could they be used on the ECML with some of the traction motors isolated and maybe just one pan used?

Didn't GNER use them on the ECML a good few years back?

jopsuk · 7 Nov 2014

GNER used "North of London" sets on Leeds services for a while.

whhistle · 7 Nov 2014

Maybe reconfigured for Gatwick Express might be good, especially as you could dig out some of the seats and have more luggage areas.

Shame it's a 3rd rail route.

Velaro UK construction progress (New Eurostar rolling stock)

Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Forum Staff

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Forum Staff

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

On Moderation