Rail ticket 'rip-off': passengers routinely denied cheapest fares

Squaddie · 31 Oct 2014

Today's Daily Telegraph leads with the results of its own investigation, which found that self-service machines which are used to purchase almost a quarter of all rail tickets offer wildly different fares.

Customers buying from a machine can pay more than £200 when a ticket for the same destination can be found elsewhere at the station for more than £100 cheaper.

For example, at machines run by train company Northern Rail in Leeds, passengers buying a First-Class Anytime Return to Birmingham were charged £271.

Only feet away, an East Coast trains machine offered the same journey using a First-Class Off-peak Return for £145.70. This type of ticket is not available for customers using Northern Rails machines, which means that some passengers might not be aware that they could save £125.30 by travelling off-peak.

At Kings Cross, East Coast machines offered a ticket from London Euston to Liverpool on a First-Class Anytime Single fare for £229.50. However, a Thameslink & Great Northern machine just feet away offered a London Midland-only First-Class Anytime Single for £94 a saving of £135.50.

The London Midland option would involve a change at Stafford and the journey would last around three and a quarter hours, more than an hour longer than the more expensive option. But passengers were not given the choice.

In some cases customers are not offered cheaper prices for identical routes.

At Chiltern Railways Birmingham Moor Street station, a ticket from the city to London by any permitted route cost £49.50 for an Off Peak Single, while a Virgin machine at the citys New Street station, just five minutes walk away, offered a Super Off Peak Single for £31, also by any permissible route a saving of £18.50.

Chiltern Railways explained there had been a minor technical error that resulted in a fare not appearing on its machine.

Elsewhere, rail operators were found to be promoting more expensive tickets on their own machines quick select screens when fares almost half the price were available, albeit less visible.

For example, London Midlands machines at Euston station automatically display more expensive fares, forcing passengers to sift manually through alternatives to secure the best travel deal.

A Standard Anytime Return from London to Birmingham was quoted at £164 on a London Midland machine. But a passenger searching through the options to Birmingham would find a Standard Anytime Return travelling with London Midland-only listed on the same machine. The latter ticket was priced at £69 a saving of £95 if the passenger was given the choice of the slower London Midland train.

London Midland said the majority of its machines were in place to sell the most commonly purchased tickets to passengers travelling on the day so they tried to keep the screens simple and easy to use.

Tickets for more complex journeys are always better bought online or at a booking office, a spokesman said.

Full story: Daily Telegraph

RailUK Forums

DelayRepay · 31 Oct 2014

London Midland said:
Tickets for more complex journeys are always better bought online or at a booking office

I thought London Midland closed and cut opening hours of quite a few of their ticket offices not long ago?

duncanp · 31 Oct 2014

I had a similar experience at St Pancras some time ago.

I was travelling to Nottingham on Saturday with an advance ticket that I purchased on line.

Out of interest, I went to one of the machines just to see what the walk up fare would be. The return fare that was displayed was the Anytime return which was about £120. It was only when I pressed the button marked "see more fares" (right down at the bottom of the screen) that the screen with the off peak return fare of about £55 was displayed.

Someone not familiar with rail fares could easily be duped into paying the more expensive fare. If ticket office staff have to be impartial when selling tickets, shouldn't this obligation be extended to the machines, or is that too much like hard work for the TOCs?

Searle · 31 Oct 2014

I understand the article and I think it's very cheeky, but I can't be the only one who (if I don't research the ticket beforehand), Actually looks though all the ticket types? It seems as if people are just not bothering to look at the whole screen here. I find it quite silly how people can just not even spend a few minutes actually thinking about what they're buying, before spending hundreds of pounds.

table38 · 31 Oct 2014

I've had similar experiences and even posted on here about it.

See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=64683 (although the TVM at Flowery Field is long gone!) and http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=104299

yorkie · 31 Oct 2014

This is very true, and there's no way that Train Companies should penalise people when the only options are ticket machines, yet some do.

If the ticket office is closed, you should be able to buy all fares on board.

If anyone is concerned about being overcharged by ticket machines, it's worth finding out what the policy of your local Train Company is.

Passengers holding Rail Travel Vouchers (RTVs) can't use the machines, so have to buy on board (or at destination if it's not possible to buy on board).

Passengers paying by cash can't use ticket machines at some stations (notably Scotrail, some Northern, and some others) , so have to buy on board (or at destination if it's not possible to buy on board).

Yet if you're paying by card (or cash in most cases), many TOCs will penalise you if you don't put your trust in the machine and allow yourself to be potentially overcharged, as described in the article.

If you know there is a cheaper fare available, and that the machine isn't selling the fare you want, some TOCs (e.g. Northern) let you buy on board (or at destination if it's not possible to buy on board). However other TOCs (e.g. EMT) insist that you comply with NRCoC Condition 3 and buy the 'wrong' ticket for part of your journey and then ask for an excess (which may, or may not, be possible, depending on what you want to excess the ticket to, so you may have to pay additionally for the 'right' ticket and wait weeks for a refund of the original).

It's a ridiculous situation. The rail industry calls ticketing "simple" so are in denial that these problems exist. They claim that conditions are "the same" across all Companies so that you "know exactly where you stand" but this isn't at all true as they all have different policies.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would anyone be interested in embarking on a project to ask all TOCs for their policies in various scenarios regarding ticket machines when the ticket office is closed?

It would be useful to get the policy of each TOC in the Fares Guide so that people can actually know where they stand. However I suspect some TOCs will not be willing to give an answer.

table38 said:
I've had similar experiences and even posted on here about it.

Indeed, there are numerous more too, e.g. Missing station on ticket machines.

Bletchleyite · 31 Oct 2014

yorkie said:
Passengers holding Rail Travel Vouchers (RTVs) can't use the machines, so have to buy on board (or at destination if it's not possible to buy on board).

I have got to the barrier at Euston with an RTV in hand and said this, and they let me through to the ticket office to pay. So some RPIs are reasonable about this kind of thing.

With regard to the actual machines, I think there is a significant design flaw in the UI of the Scheidt & Bachmann machines, which is the "popular tickets" screen. This is what is most likely to be misleading. In my view this should change to a "popular destinations" screen like on the Shere machines, which then takes you to a full fare list. (I wonder is there a patent causing this issue?)

Additionally, currently non-valid off peak tickets are not listed, so people may not know they exist. They should IMO be listed with a greyed out background, with a note "not valid at the present time", and if selected a big red warning warns you they are for use later on only.

As for missing fares, there is no excuse for this. All ticket machines should show all fares from that origin. Not doing that is just laziness, though I sort-of accept that at London terminals it's probably not unreasonable to avoid confusion by missing off fares that are not valid from that station, e.g. tickets to Newcastle at Waterloo.

Edit: A further improvement would be on the all-fares screen to show singles and returns in different columns, sorted by price, for an easier comparison. Maybe also a note if there are no period returns (or only off peak ones) that two singles are necessary in this case.

Hardware wise, printer speed needs improving, and there needs to be an "I don't want a card receipt" option as it's a waste of a card and 5 seconds for something I put straight in the bin (these don't need auditing in the same way they used to in the days of miskeyable paper card slips).

Neil

Mojo · 31 Oct 2014

Searle said:
I understand the article and I think it's very cheeky, but I can't be the only one who (if I don't research the ticket beforehand), Actually looks though all the ticket types? It seems as if people are just not bothering to look at the whole screen here. I find it quite silly how people can just not even spend a few minutes actually thinking about what they're buying, before spending hundreds of pounds.

The price difference might not be hundreds of pounds, but could easily be almost 50% more. See this thread which maniacmartin posted after him and I were at St Pancras one evening last year: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=93640

The situation is even worse when you consider what tickets are offered at nearby Kings +, with both Great Northern and East Coast Trains machines, and also the London Underground machines downstairs too.

For group tickets the situation is complicated even more, with some machines not offering them at all, some machines offering them without you requesting them and some making you go into a menu to request them. This could potentially land customers in trouble as they are sold a ticket they do not want. For example to Bedford, East Midlands do not accept this type of GroupSave (how many customers are aware that despite East Midlands advertising that they take GroupSave, they operate a different type of GroupSave to most other Tocs, which does not include London?)

maniacmartin · 31 Oct 2014

The Telegraph are a bit late. There have been threads on this forum on TVM impartiality before!

afyutr · 31 Oct 2014

I try and avoid the TVMs as much as possible as:

- They often have issues when buying multiple tickets to the same destination, especially where railcards are involved. I had to input and pay for four separate tickets for a one way journey for four of us to the same destination on a Scotrail one recently. Imagine how fun people behind me in the queue found that.

- They are often slow, and there's nothing more frustrating than randomly joining a queue for one machine to find out it's the one where the touch screen doesn't line up and it takes ages to get to the right ticket.

- I find the descriptions are not that helpful in some cases (recently offered anytime, off peak or super off peak with no explanation of the restrictions).

- I feel more confident that I'm getting the right ticket from a person. Although I'm sure people will argue this still depends on what I actually ask for rather than it being the most appropriate one for my journey.

If all else fails I try and order online and collect 5 mins later.

yorkie · 31 Oct 2014

Condition 3 of the NRCoC should be abolished or re-worded considerably.

afyutr said:
- I find the descriptions are not that helpful in some cases (recently offered anytime, off peak or super off peak with no explanation of the restrictions).

It should also be made clearer that, if in doubt, a (Super) Off Peak fare should be purchased as there is no penalty for excessing it to the appropriate fare if it's not valid at that time. Staff should be reminded that anyone requiring such an excess is not to be penalised, as per the excess fare rules.

maniacmartin said:
The Telegraph are a bit late. There have been threads on this forum on TVM impartiality before!

That's another good example. Does anyone have any photos of the GroupSave farce?

TVMs act in a wide range of ways to GroupSave causing passengers to be left very confused. Some sell it without warning (though this can happen from a ticket office too, see Sold Wrong Ticket) leading to EMT stating it's the "wrong type" of GroupSave as although EMT accept GroupSave they apparently don't accept GroupSave if the destination is London, despite the route being "Any Permitted". :rolleyes:

For the record, that passenger did get the 3x £45 "fines" refunded.

No other industry treats its customers with such contempt!

I do feel sorry for the TOCs who 'do the right thing' though as the whole rail industry gets a bad name over this sort of nonsense.

Bletchleyite · 31 Oct 2014

yorkie said:
It should also be made clearer that, if in doubt, a (Super) Off Peak fare should be purchased as there is no penalty for excessing it to the appropriate fare if it's not valid at that time.

Except when there is.

AIUI you cannot excess a TOC specific fare to another TOC specific one, nor to Any Permitted. So if there's a TOC specific Off Peak but not Anytime (true of LM Only tickets from Milton Keynes Central to London) you're stuck.

As for GroupSave it could do with being a single national consistent scheme valid on all TOCs, ideally with discounts for children as well (but not as good as the Family Railcard or it'd hit sales of those).

Neil

hassaanhc · 31 Oct 2014

Neil Williams said:
I have got to the barrier at Euston with an RTV in hand and said this, and they let me through to the ticket office to pay. So some RPIs are reasonable about this kind of thing.

With regard to the actual machines, I think there is a significant design flaw in the UI of the Scheidt & Bachmann machines, which is the "popular tickets" screen. This is what is most likely to be misleading. In my view this should change to a "popular destinations" screen like on the Shere machines, which then takes you to a full fare list. (I wonder is there a patent causing this issue?)

Additionally, currently non-valid off peak tickets are not listed, so people may not know they exist. They should IMO be listed with a greyed out background, with a note "not valid at the present time", and if selected a big red warning warns you they are for use later on only.

As for missing fares, there is no excuse for this. All ticket machines should show all fares from that origin. Not doing that is just laziness, though I sort-of accept that at London terminals it's probably not unreasonable to avoid confusion by missing off fares that are not valid from that station, e.g. tickets to Newcastle at Waterloo.

Edit: A further improvement would be on the all-fares screen to show singles and returns in different columns, sorted by price, for an easier comparison. Maybe also a note if there are no period returns (or only off peak ones) that two singles are necessary in this case.

Hardware wise, printer speed needs improving, and there needs to be an "I don't want a card receipt" option as it's a waste of a card and 5 seconds for something I put straight in the bin (these don't need auditing in the same way they used to in the days of miskeyable paper card slips).

Neil

I've noticed that issue with the S&B machines with SWT. One of the first tickets shown at Hounslow is an Anytime Day Return to London Terminals at £10.80 , when for most of the day the Off-Peak Day Travelcard at £8.90 is not only cheaper, it gives significantly more validity. Why show it after 0930? :idea:

. Also agree with not jumbling up singles and returns, which is an issue with Virgin and Southern machines.

Personally, I'll make sure I 100% know what I want and the price before buying a ticket from a machine.

yorkie · 31 Oct 2014

Neil Williams said:
AIUI you cannot excess a TOC specific fare to another TOC specific one, nor to Any Permitted. So if there's a TOC specific Off Peak but not Anytime (true of LM Only tickets from Milton Keynes Central to London) you're stuck.

You apparently can't officially excess from a TOC-specific fare to a non-TOC specific fare to avoid the TOC restriction. However some staff will do this (a recent example is the £1000 bill thread).

If there was a TOC specific Off Peak and not an Anytime, then the excess would probably have to be to the Anytime routed Any Permitted, however many would interpret this that the original TOC restriction remained. For an example of this, see the Advance Fare FAQ.

I believe there shouldn't be any restrictions on excessing TOC specific fares anyway; I've posted my views on that here.

Neil Williams said:
As for GroupSave it could do with being a single national consistent scheme valid on all TOCs, ideally with discounts for children as well (but not as good as the Family Railcard or it'd hit sales of those).

No chance of that! :lol:

But I agree, there should be a national scheme, and no TOC should try to get out of NRCoC Condition 10 either!

hassaanhc · 31 Oct 2014

On the other hand, DLR machines, which I believe only sell tickets to other DLR, LU, LO and a very small number of other stations, automatically issue a Travelcard if you ask for a return, as it would be cheaper than a return

Busaholic · 31 Oct 2014

It is good that the Telegraph has led with this story. It could signify that they would be prepared to run with the whole gamut of rail fares, which in their byzantine complexity have reached a farcical level, without the comedic mitigation, especially when people have to pay penalty fares and/or face the possibility of facing criminal charges. Don't forget it was the Daily Telegraph that first published the details of MPs' expense claims and devoted considerable journalistic resources to the matter. Rail fares rip-offs will probably chime with a lot of their regular readership and, six months before a General Election, could yet have an impact. Who knows, perhaps Labour might see this as a chance to get away from their current supine stance on railway matters. Can anyone even name the shadow Transport Secretary? Rhetorical question, by the way.

yorkie · 31 Oct 2014

Busaholic said:
It is good that the Telegraph has led with this story. It could signify that they would be prepared to run with the whole gamut of rail fares,....

If so, that could be good news. I do hope they contact us though, so we can point them in the right direction and ensure the articles are reasonably accurate

DeeGee · 31 Oct 2014

Vanessa Feltz will be covering this on Radio 2 this lunchtime.

anme · 31 Oct 2014

Searle said:
I understand the article and I think it's very cheeky, but I can't be the only one who (if I don't research the ticket beforehand), Actually looks though all the ticket types? It seems as if people are just not bothering to look at the whole screen here. I find it quite silly how people can just not even spend a few minutes actually thinking about what they're buying, before spending hundreds of pounds.

We should not encourage people to spend "a few minutes" in front of a ticket machine deciding which tickets to buy. Queues at many stations are bad enough already. This would often cause chaos.

Please let's not try to excuse some (if deliberate) clearly inexcusable behaviour by the TOCs.

Bletchleyite · 31 Oct 2014

anme said:
We should not encourage people to spend "a few minutes" in front of a ticket machine deciding which tickets to buy. Queues at many stations are bad enough already. This would often cause chaos.

Please let's not try to excuse some (if deliberate) clearly inexcusable behaviour by the TOCs.

If they're sorted by price, it is a relatively simple case of "start at the top, work your way down, stop when you reach a ticket that suits your journey".

Neil

LexyBoy · 31 Oct 2014

Ticket machines can require a lot of prior knowledge to select the correct fare. Some passengers will select a more expensive ticket than required if they don't know or understand the time or route restrictions applicable to their journey, and buy the more expensive fare to avoid being fined.

In some cases the choices are baffling. A passenger wishing to travel to Hampton Court from Reading must select from the following routes before being offered any fares:

+Any Permitted
Not Via London
Via Basingstoke
Clapham Junction

At 7 am, the cheapest day return ticket would be Not Via London. At 9, Via Basingstoke. If tehy wanted to travel via Virginia Water (the usual route for the Not Via London ticket), they should select Any Permitted if it's 10 but Not Via London at 11. And if they wanted to travel via London at off-peak times, they'd have to know not to select Hampton Court as the destination, but a London Travelcard, or pay 40 p more than needed.

Bletchleyite · 31 Oct 2014

Ah, yes, I forgot that "feature". They could do with being shown all on the same page.

Neil

yorkie · 31 Oct 2014

LexyBoy said:
In some cases the choices are baffling. A passenger wishing to travel to Hampton Court from Reading must select from the following routes before being offered any fares:

+Any Permitted

Not Via London

Via Basingstoke

Clapham Junction

At 7 am, the cheapest day return ticket would be Not Via London. At 9, Via Basingstoke. If tehy wanted to travel via Virginia Water (the usual route for the Not Via London ticket), they should select Any Permitted if it's 10 but Not Via London at 11. And if they wanted to travel via London at off-peak times, they'd have to know not to select Hampton Court as the destination, but a London Travelcard, or pay 40 p more than needed.

The above fares are, in the opinion of the rail industry, "simple".

You best arrive at the station half an hour before departure, as SWT's policy isn't exactly customer friendly...

How SWT like to treat their 'customers' said:
With the right train ticket, you will avoid being fined or prosecuted; you will be able to travel when it suits you and may save yourself money....

The machine should be used.... It is your responsibility to allow enough time to buy your ticket....

...The vast majority of our passengers always buy a ticket before they join a train.... Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited, Transport for London and all other Train and Bus Companies will always pursue ticketless travellers, prosecuting vigorously when appropriate

And, although we know the correct course of action for someone who has paid for a cheaper route or for a time restricted ticket at an invalid time, is to issue an excess fare, SWT could potentially invoke Byelaw 18 making it a strict liability criminal matter!

I hope that someone in the media uses some good examples, such as the one described above.

I wouldn't mind fares being complex if there were guarantees that anyone who is in doubt should buy the cheaper fare and that nothing more than an excess would always be chargeable.

For me, it's not so much the complex nature of fares that's the problem, but the potential hassle you get if you underpay (potential to be treated like a criminal) or overpay (good luck getting your money back)! This makes people extremely worried about purchasing the right fare and are therefore more likely to overpay!

There must be £millions in overpaid fares due to a combination of:

Customers buying 'Any Permitted' tickets when a route restricted ticket would have been valid;
Customers buying 'Anytime' or 'Off Peak' tickets when an 'Off Peak' or '(Super) Off Peak (Day)' fare respectively, would have been valid.
Customers being penalised for purchasing one ticket, rather than a combination of tickets (aka "splitting") - the average amount per transaction on TrainSplit is around £10 (!!!!) though this is, admittedly, a separate topic.

Haywain · 31 Oct 2014

Neil Williams said:
As for missing fares, there is no excuse for this. All ticket machines should show all fares from that origin. Not doing that is just laziness, though I sort-of accept that at London terminals it's probably not unreasonable to avoid confusion by missing off fares that are not valid from that station, e.g. tickets to Newcastle at Waterloo.

One difficulty for London Terminal stations is that tickets are expected to be valid for the whole journey. For example, if a station such as Kings Cross were to sell a ticket to Basingstoke, the customer would be surprised to then be asked to pay for an underground journey on top of the fare already paid. Hence many such tickets are not offered. But some destinations have fares from Zone U1 over one route, but not over another (cheaper) route and it can then appear that not all the fares are being offered.

cav1975 · 31 Oct 2014

I have had a similar situation where I bought a rail ticket and a car park ticket at the same time from a rail ticket machine. The car park ticket was charged at the peak price even though it was a Sunday. There were no signs nearby telling me the correct price.

I was short of time so I paid even though I thought the price was high. Fortunately I received RTVs as a refund from customer service later.

furryfeet · 31 Oct 2014

yorkie said:
Condition 3 of the NRCoC should be abolished or re-worded considerably.

where does one stand if say, the railcard that one has is NOT listed on the ticket machine ? Can you then pay on board without penalty ? Assume that there is no booking office open at the time. I know that two-together railcards were not shown in the past, but this may have changed with nationwide rollout.

yorkie · 31 Oct 2014

furryfeet said:
where does one stand if say, the railcard that one has is NOT listed on the ticket machine ? Can you then pay on board without penalty ? Assume that there is no booking office open at the time. I know that two-together railcards were not shown in the past, but this may have changed with nationwide rollout.

It depends on the policy of the TOC, and whether or not they require you to buy a 'part fare' undiscounted ticket under NRCoC 3.

furryfeet · 31 Oct 2014

yorkie said:
It depends on the policy of the TOC, and whether or not they require you to buy a 'part fare' undiscounted ticket under NRCoC 3.

so why does the govt let this happen ? Why not impose a rule upon all of the TOCs which allows the passenger to buy on board without penalty if the ticket machine cannot sell the ticket that the passengers want ? Perhaps Mary Creagh can shed some policy light on this matter. Alternatively, the Green party may have something to say.

afyutr · 31 Oct 2014

furryfeet said:
where does one stand if say, the railcard that one has is NOT listed on the ticket machine ? Can you then pay on board without penalty ? Assume that there is no booking office open at the time. I know that two-together railcards were not shown in the past, but this may have changed with nationwide rollout.

Are there any railcards that offer a different discount to 1/3? Why the need for all the different codes like Y-P when surely RCD will do to encompass them all (or all in the 1/3 off bracket). Once got caught out by a TVM printing Y-P instead of RCD on my ticket (no idea why and double checked it was HM RCD before I confirmed) resulting in a trip to the counter to get it sorted and almost missing the hourly train.

bb21 · 31 Oct 2014

Different minimum fare, different time restriction, different requirement on passenger numbers, ...

In fact, no two Railcards have the same terms that I can see.

Most staff are sensible and will pass a ticket with the incorrect code if the correct fare has been paid, but it can be a pain if one is worried about encountering an awkward RPI.

Rail ticket 'rip-off': passengers routinely denied cheapest fares

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